I agree BuickGN. 20 wt only makes sense in a cold climate. Could use it here in Michgan for winter fill, but I'd sure rather run a 30 wt in the summer.
CAFE and 5W-20 - The Truth
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Originally Posted By: TallPaul
I agree BuickGN. 20 wt only makes sense in a cold climate. Could use it here in Michgan for winter fill, but I'd sure rather run a 30 wt in the summer.
You will get slightly better fuel economy year around with a 5W20 verses a 5W30. The improvement in mpg should be more pronounced in colder temperatures. I have not seen any evidence of high wear in 5W20 UOA's posted here.
I challenge anyone to show some solid evidence that running 5W20 will result in more wear than 5W30 in any engine where 5W20 is approved by the OEM.
I agree BuickGN. 20 wt only makes sense in a cold climate. Could use it here in Michgan for winter fill, but I'd sure rather run a 30 wt in the summer.
You will get slightly better fuel economy year around with a 5W20 verses a 5W30. The improvement in mpg should be more pronounced in colder temperatures. I have not seen any evidence of high wear in 5W20 UOA's posted here.
I challenge anyone to show some solid evidence that running 5W20 will result in more wear than 5W30 in any engine where 5W20 is approved by the OEM.
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Quote:
I have seen engines that were plain old worn out before. No oil pressure at idle due to excessive bearing clearances, and burning oil badly when lifting throttle. No other issues besides too many miles. Engines do wear out.
Sure they do. It's just the last time I saw one was my old bosses 1961 Ford Falcon. If you put on the brakes too hard, the oil light flashed. At a certain rpm, it was like you turned on an afterburner due to enough oil pressure.
That was in 1976.
Now, again, I've seen them neglected and destroyed. I've yet to see a tired engine that was properly maintained outside of some bracket racer that's refreshing every three years anyway.
Quote:
You are thinking in absolutes. Just because 20wts aren't sending cars to the junkyard with a rod through the pan doesn't mean they wouldn't be in better shape at the same mileage with a heavier oil.
While I agree with the concept (that "end of life" doesn't equate to health) we have to remember, as I stated before, that our standard 5w-30 was shearing to a 20 grade anyway. If you've been using 5w-30 dino oil from the day it became widely adopted ..through the recent past, AND you ran it for any length of time, ..then you too have been using a 20 grade. You just didn't know it.
Quote:
I'm very confident I have something to gain by the (true) 30wt I'm running but I can't find a single positive of running the recommended 5w-20 in my climate.
I don't believe that I've stated that they're for everyone. For engines that are spec'd for it ..outside of design flaws and neglect, I would welcome evidence that there's any degradation of utility ..or higher frequency of service because of the use of 5w-20 oil.
While you can see no advantage to using them, I don't think you can produce a legit documented liability either
I have seen engines that were plain old worn out before. No oil pressure at idle due to excessive bearing clearances, and burning oil badly when lifting throttle. No other issues besides too many miles. Engines do wear out.
Sure they do. It's just the last time I saw one was my old bosses 1961 Ford Falcon. If you put on the brakes too hard, the oil light flashed. At a certain rpm, it was like you turned on an afterburner due to enough oil pressure.
That was in 1976.
Now, again, I've seen them neglected and destroyed. I've yet to see a tired engine that was properly maintained outside of some bracket racer that's refreshing every three years anyway.
Quote:
You are thinking in absolutes. Just because 20wts aren't sending cars to the junkyard with a rod through the pan doesn't mean they wouldn't be in better shape at the same mileage with a heavier oil.
While I agree with the concept (that "end of life" doesn't equate to health) we have to remember, as I stated before, that our standard 5w-30 was shearing to a 20 grade anyway. If you've been using 5w-30 dino oil from the day it became widely adopted ..through the recent past, AND you ran it for any length of time, ..then you too have been using a 20 grade. You just didn't know it.
Quote:
I'm very confident I have something to gain by the (true) 30wt I'm running but I can't find a single positive of running the recommended 5w-20 in my climate.
I don't believe that I've stated that they're for everyone. For engines that are spec'd for it ..outside of design flaws and neglect, I would welcome evidence that there's any degradation of utility ..or higher frequency of service because of the use of 5w-20 oil.
While you can see no advantage to using them, I don't think you can produce a legit documented liability either
I'm a big fan of the thinner oils, but have a question. If a 5W30 sheers to a 20 grade oil, about how many miles will it take? I'm sure no one can really tell exactly, there are too many other factors involved. The next question would be, is the increased wear that everyone is debating caused when the oil was a 30 grade, or after it sheered to a 20 grade? If it occurs after its sheered to a 20 grade, then the 5W30 is the ticket because you'll have less wear while its still a 30 grade oil. That's something else that would be impossible to prove, unless there is some test for it that would end these discussions, or open things up for another debate. Me I'll stick to what the car maker tells me to use.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
Anger is a terrible thing.
That's 3 doors down on the left ..right next to Arguments. This is Abuse.
That is really good. This tread reminds me of the Magnum PI TV show where Magnum is picking a lock and something, usually dogs, are gaining on him and he says to himself. "don't look at the dogs, don't look at the dogs. O, I looked." Just makes me wonder how do I get banned? I need a break from this.
Quote:
Anger is a terrible thing.
That's 3 doors down on the left ..right next to Arguments. This is Abuse.
That is really good. This tread reminds me of the Magnum PI TV show where Magnum is picking a lock and something, usually dogs, are gaining on him and he says to himself. "don't look at the dogs, don't look at the dogs. O, I looked." Just makes me wonder how do I get banned? I need a break from this.
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Quote:
If a 5W30 sheers to a 20 grade oil, about how many miles will it take?
If you had a timing chain, I think it was sooner instead of later.
Quote:
The next question would be, is the increased wear that everyone is debating caused when the oil was a 30 grade, or after it sheered to a 20 grade? If it occurs after its sheered to a 20 grade,
Now, Frank, you've just solved the other magical mystery of BITOG. We all wondered why there was a sharp increase in wear metals somewhere in the midpoint of a 3k OCI. It was the shearing ..proof positive that 20 grades cause increased wear.
Good work!
30 grades are more shear stable now. It's not much of an issue.
If a 5W30 sheers to a 20 grade oil, about how many miles will it take?
If you had a timing chain, I think it was sooner instead of later.
Quote:
The next question would be, is the increased wear that everyone is debating caused when the oil was a 30 grade, or after it sheered to a 20 grade? If it occurs after its sheered to a 20 grade,
Now, Frank, you've just solved the other magical mystery of BITOG. We all wondered why there was a sharp increase in wear metals somewhere in the midpoint of a 3k OCI. It was the shearing ..proof positive that 20 grades cause increased wear.
Good work!
30 grades are more shear stable now. It's not much of an issue.
Is an oil like PP 5w30 less likely to shear than YB 5w30 to a 20wt?
Last edited:
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Well, they're both very good ..but PP has those nano-adaptive molecules .......
Ford and Dodge and evidently all of the other makes all recommend thicker oils outside of the US, so don't step in those piles of 'tighter tolerances', 'special viscosity requirements' and other common statements. 5w20 will work fine when used as recommended provided you pay attention to the region that it's being recommended for.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/132772-absolute-best-oil-for-new-f150.html
Down under Ford Australia only recommends 10w30 here for the 5.4l 3V motor.
The motor is imported from USA to fit in the Ford Falcon.
It still has 5w20 on the oil filler cap, so you would think if its ok to use 10w30 here it should be ok in the USA.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/132772-absolute-best-oil-for-new-f150.html
Down under Ford Australia only recommends 10w30 here for the 5.4l 3V motor.
The motor is imported from USA to fit in the Ford Falcon.
It still has 5w20 on the oil filler cap, so you would think if its ok to use 10w30 here it should be ok in the USA.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Quote:
I have seen engines that were plain old worn out before. No oil pressure at idle due to excessive bearing clearances, and burning oil badly when lifting throttle. No other issues besides too many miles. Engines do wear out.
Sure they do. It's just the last time I saw one was my old bosses 1961 Ford Falcon. If you put on the brakes too hard, the oil light flashed. At a certain rpm, it was like you turned on an afterburner due to enough oil pressure.
That was in 1976.
Now, again, I've seen them neglected and destroyed. I've yet to see a tired engine that was properly maintained outside of some bracket racer that's refreshing every three years anyway.
Quote:
You are thinking in absolutes. Just because 20wts aren't sending cars to the junkyard with a rod through the pan doesn't mean they wouldn't be in better shape at the same mileage with a heavier oil.
While I agree with the concept (that "end of life" doesn't equate to health) we have to remember, as I stated before, that our standard 5w-30 was shearing to a 20 grade anyway. If you've been using 5w-30 dino oil from the day it became widely adopted ..through the recent past, AND you ran it for any length of time, ..then you too have been using a 20 grade. You just didn't know it.
Quote:
I'm very confident I have something to gain by the (true) 30wt I'm running but I can't find a single positive of running the recommended 5w-20 in my climate.
I don't believe that I've stated that they're for everyone. For engines that are spec'd for it ..outside of design flaws and neglect, I would welcome evidence that there's any degradation of utility ..or higher frequency of service because of the use of 5w-20 oil.
While you can see no advantage to using them, I don't think you can produce a legit documented liability either
Gary, your points are understood and I agree for the most part.
When I mentioned a 30wt, I'm talking about a straight 30 (ACD), not something that will sheer down in a few miles.
I hope in a few years, if BITOG is still around I will have teardown results of my TL running ACD 30wt all it's life and by then I hope there will be enough worn engines to compare to. I will either say I told you so or admit I've been wrong all these years.
I do believe if wear with 5w-20 was exactly the same as a 10w-30, the same engine would be spec'd for 5w-20 outside of the US but usually they're not.
Quote:
I have seen engines that were plain old worn out before. No oil pressure at idle due to excessive bearing clearances, and burning oil badly when lifting throttle. No other issues besides too many miles. Engines do wear out.
Sure they do. It's just the last time I saw one was my old bosses 1961 Ford Falcon. If you put on the brakes too hard, the oil light flashed. At a certain rpm, it was like you turned on an afterburner due to enough oil pressure.
That was in 1976.
Now, again, I've seen them neglected and destroyed. I've yet to see a tired engine that was properly maintained outside of some bracket racer that's refreshing every three years anyway.
Quote:
You are thinking in absolutes. Just because 20wts aren't sending cars to the junkyard with a rod through the pan doesn't mean they wouldn't be in better shape at the same mileage with a heavier oil.
While I agree with the concept (that "end of life" doesn't equate to health) we have to remember, as I stated before, that our standard 5w-30 was shearing to a 20 grade anyway. If you've been using 5w-30 dino oil from the day it became widely adopted ..through the recent past, AND you ran it for any length of time, ..then you too have been using a 20 grade. You just didn't know it.
Quote:
I'm very confident I have something to gain by the (true) 30wt I'm running but I can't find a single positive of running the recommended 5w-20 in my climate.
I don't believe that I've stated that they're for everyone. For engines that are spec'd for it ..outside of design flaws and neglect, I would welcome evidence that there's any degradation of utility ..or higher frequency of service because of the use of 5w-20 oil.
While you can see no advantage to using them, I don't think you can produce a legit documented liability either
Gary, your points are understood and I agree for the most part.
When I mentioned a 30wt, I'm talking about a straight 30 (ACD), not something that will sheer down in a few miles.
I hope in a few years, if BITOG is still around I will have teardown results of my TL running ACD 30wt all it's life and by then I hope there will be enough worn engines to compare to. I will either say I told you so or admit I've been wrong all these years.
I do believe if wear with 5w-20 was exactly the same as a 10w-30, the same engine would be spec'd for 5w-20 outside of the US but usually they're not.
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: RWEST
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
Originally Posted By: Riptide
Fuel for the fire.
http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showpos...19&postcount=12
Scott Whitehead, one of the engineers that worked on the Ford 4.6 modular, indicating use of 5W-20 is a no-no.
Wow. Good fuel!
Yeah, but he didn't say WHY 5-20 is no good!! Kinda' makes you wonder....
To his postulation, all I can say is we've run mostly MC (some M1) 5-20 in a variety of mod motored vans/p'ups for years, getting well over 200,000 miles (usually, before the PA road salt gets 'em) on them with no oil related issues.
Actually he did say why. The results of many engines torn down after being run on the dyno. He's an engineer for Ford, part of the development of several of the engines spec'd for 5w-20, has done much research on the dyno with 5w-20 and he recommends against it. What more do you need to hear?
This is what I don't get about this place. You can have clear evidence right in front of you that should and could end the discussion yet it doesn't. It goes more on "feelings" than facts.
Sorry, GN. I've read and re-read that link, and it says nothing about teardowns after dyno runs.
He does say 'But suffice it to say I've seen and been involved in a LOT of development on these motors, and my personal opinion is that I would never run 5W-20 in a modular motor.'
Where'd you see anything about post-dyno run teardown?
No 'feelings' here; staunch conservative - facts only!!
Originally Posted By: RWEST
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
Originally Posted By: Riptide
Fuel for the fire.
http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showpos...19&postcount=12
Scott Whitehead, one of the engineers that worked on the Ford 4.6 modular, indicating use of 5W-20 is a no-no.
Wow. Good fuel!
Yeah, but he didn't say WHY 5-20 is no good!! Kinda' makes you wonder....
To his postulation, all I can say is we've run mostly MC (some M1) 5-20 in a variety of mod motored vans/p'ups for years, getting well over 200,000 miles (usually, before the PA road salt gets 'em) on them with no oil related issues.
Actually he did say why. The results of many engines torn down after being run on the dyno. He's an engineer for Ford, part of the development of several of the engines spec'd for 5w-20, has done much research on the dyno with 5w-20 and he recommends against it. What more do you need to hear?
This is what I don't get about this place. You can have clear evidence right in front of you that should and could end the discussion yet it doesn't. It goes more on "feelings" than facts.
He does say 'But suffice it to say I've seen and been involved in a LOT of development on these motors, and my personal opinion is that I would never run 5W-20 in a modular motor.'
Where'd you see anything about post-dyno run teardown?
No 'feelings' here; staunch conservative - facts only!!
Originally Posted By: RWEST
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: RWEST
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
Originally Posted By: Riptide
Fuel for the fire.
http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showpos...19&postcount=12
Scott Whitehead, one of the engineers that worked on the Ford 4.6 modular, indicating use of 5W-20 is a no-no.
Wow. Good fuel!
Yeah, but he didn't say WHY 5-20 is no good!! Kinda' makes you wonder....
To his postulation, all I can say is we've run mostly MC (some M1) 5-20 in a variety of mod motored vans/p'ups for years, getting well over 200,000 miles (usually, before the PA road salt gets 'em) on them with no oil related issues.
Actually he did say why. The results of many engines torn down after being run on the dyno. He's an engineer for Ford, part of the development of several of the engines spec'd for 5w-20, has done much research on the dyno with 5w-20 and he recommends against it. What more do you need to hear?
This is what I don't get about this place. You can have clear evidence right in front of you that should and could end the discussion yet it doesn't. It goes more on "feelings" than facts.
Sorry, GN. I've read and re-read that link, and it says nothing about teardowns after dyno runs.
He does say 'But suffice it to say I've seen and been involved in a LOT of development on these motors, and my personal opinion is that I would never run 5W-20 in a modular motor.'
Where'd you see anything about post-dyno run teardown?
No 'feelings' here; staunch conservative - facts only!!
From that link, after you click on the entire thread...
Originally Posted By: Scott
Because I've seen the dyno testing. I've probably looked at several hundred engines disassembled and spread out on inspection tables. And I've been involved in testing to resolve issues where varying the oil viscosity was part of the test DOE. Trading a very small FE improvement in exchange for a large durability safety margin is not something I'm interested in doing.
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: RWEST
Originally Posted By: Liquid_Turbo
Originally Posted By: Riptide
Fuel for the fire.
http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showpos...19&postcount=12
Scott Whitehead, one of the engineers that worked on the Ford 4.6 modular, indicating use of 5W-20 is a no-no.
Wow. Good fuel!
Yeah, but he didn't say WHY 5-20 is no good!! Kinda' makes you wonder....
To his postulation, all I can say is we've run mostly MC (some M1) 5-20 in a variety of mod motored vans/p'ups for years, getting well over 200,000 miles (usually, before the PA road salt gets 'em) on them with no oil related issues.
Actually he did say why. The results of many engines torn down after being run on the dyno. He's an engineer for Ford, part of the development of several of the engines spec'd for 5w-20, has done much research on the dyno with 5w-20 and he recommends against it. What more do you need to hear?
This is what I don't get about this place. You can have clear evidence right in front of you that should and could end the discussion yet it doesn't. It goes more on "feelings" than facts.
He does say 'But suffice it to say I've seen and been involved in a LOT of development on these motors, and my personal opinion is that I would never run 5W-20 in a modular motor.'
Where'd you see anything about post-dyno run teardown?
No 'feelings' here; staunch conservative - facts only!!
From that link, after you click on the entire thread...
Originally Posted By: Scott
Because I've seen the dyno testing. I've probably looked at several hundred engines disassembled and spread out on inspection tables. And I've been involved in testing to resolve issues where varying the oil viscosity was part of the test DOE. Trading a very small FE improvement in exchange for a large durability safety margin is not something I'm interested in doing.
I have a Ford modular V-10, recomended oil is 5w-20, The CAFE standards does no apply to ANY vehicle with a V-10 in it because it only goes in heavy trucks, Why would Ford care about anything except the best viscosity for engine.
Originally Posted By: Viking23
I have a Ford modular V-10, recomended oil is 5w-20, The CAFE standards does no apply to ANY vehicle with a V-10 in it because it only goes in heavy trucks, Why would Ford care about anything except the best viscosity for engine.
It could be for the same reason they back-spec'd engines up to 1993, they want the oil companies to sell more 5W20 for CAFÉ purposes. At least that is what I've read on this site.
I see your point with a HD truck engine, why would they gamble and run the risk or an engine failing inside the warranty period? I can certainly see both sides of the argument.
I have a Ford modular V-10, recomended oil is 5w-20, The CAFE standards does no apply to ANY vehicle with a V-10 in it because it only goes in heavy trucks, Why would Ford care about anything except the best viscosity for engine.
It could be for the same reason they back-spec'd engines up to 1993, they want the oil companies to sell more 5W20 for CAFÉ purposes. At least that is what I've read on this site.
I see your point with a HD truck engine, why would they gamble and run the risk or an engine failing inside the warranty period? I can certainly see both sides of the argument.
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
I agree.
But I want to keep my TL forever, it's almost paid off and I don't want another car payment for a very long time. This is why I'm interested in every last mile I can get out of the engine (and trans).
Most people would get rid of this car before the potential extra wear ever has a chance to show up. I plan on driving it until it won't drive anymore and being in CA, it's not likely the engine will outlast the rest of the car unlike many others. I'm sure as [censored] not going to follow a CAFE mandated oil recommendation just for that extra .0000001 mpg.
You probably should worry more about the transmission than the engine. Most likely you will have to replace a couple transmission before your engine is worn out even with 5w20.
I agree.
But I want to keep my TL forever, it's almost paid off and I don't want another car payment for a very long time. This is why I'm interested in every last mile I can get out of the engine (and trans).
Most people would get rid of this car before the potential extra wear ever has a chance to show up. I plan on driving it until it won't drive anymore and being in CA, it's not likely the engine will outlast the rest of the car unlike many others. I'm sure as [censored] not going to follow a CAFE mandated oil recommendation just for that extra .0000001 mpg.
You probably should worry more about the transmission than the engine. Most likely you will have to replace a couple transmission before your engine is worn out even with 5w20.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
I agree.
But I want to keep my TL forever, it's almost paid off and I don't want another car payment for a very long time. This is why I'm interested in every last mile I can get out of the engine (and trans).
Most people would get rid of this car before the potential extra wear ever has a chance to show up. I plan on driving it until it won't drive anymore and being in CA, it's not likely the engine will outlast the rest of the car unlike many others. I'm sure as [censored] not going to follow a CAFE mandated oil recommendation just for that extra .0000001 mpg.
You probably should worry more about the transmission than the engine. Most likely you will have to replace a couple transmission before your engine is worn out even with 5w20.
Very true. So far so good at 71,000 miles, I'm a little above the average life expectancy of this trans but I drive like an old man, use Amsoil ATD, a big cooler, and a magnefine filter. Hopefully it pays off.
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
I agree.
But I want to keep my TL forever, it's almost paid off and I don't want another car payment for a very long time. This is why I'm interested in every last mile I can get out of the engine (and trans).
Most people would get rid of this car before the potential extra wear ever has a chance to show up. I plan on driving it until it won't drive anymore and being in CA, it's not likely the engine will outlast the rest of the car unlike many others. I'm sure as [censored] not going to follow a CAFE mandated oil recommendation just for that extra .0000001 mpg.
You probably should worry more about the transmission than the engine. Most likely you will have to replace a couple transmission before your engine is worn out even with 5w20.
Very true. So far so good at 71,000 miles, I'm a little above the average life expectancy of this trans but I drive like an old man, use Amsoil ATD, a big cooler, and a magnefine filter. Hopefully it pays off.
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Quote:
When I mentioned a 30wt, I'm talking about a straight 30 (ACD), not something that will sheer down in a few miles.
Oh ..you're talking "Super SAE 30"
I was talking wimpy multivisc older evolution dino 30 grades
When I mentioned a 30wt, I'm talking about a straight 30 (ACD), not something that will sheer down in a few miles.
Oh ..you're talking "Super SAE 30"
I was talking wimpy multivisc older evolution dino 30 grades
Originally Posted By: Viking23
I have a Ford modular V-10, recomended oil is 5w-20, The CAFE standards does not apply to ANY vehicle with a V-10 in it because it only goes in heavy trucks, Why would Ford care about anything except the best viscosity for engine.
Does seem a bit unusual, no?
I have a Ford modular V-10, recomended oil is 5w-20, The CAFE standards does not apply to ANY vehicle with a V-10 in it because it only goes in heavy trucks, Why would Ford care about anything except the best viscosity for engine.
Does seem a bit unusual, no?
Originally Posted By: Viking23
I have a Ford modular V-10, recomended oil is 5w-20, The CAFE standards does no apply to ANY vehicle with a V-10 in it because it only goes in heavy trucks, Why would Ford care about anything except the best viscosity for engine.
2 words: Fleet CAFE
Wait till you see what is coming in the future...lots of 0w20 oils will be offered IMO
I have a Ford modular V-10, recomended oil is 5w-20, The CAFE standards does no apply to ANY vehicle with a V-10 in it because it only goes in heavy trucks, Why would Ford care about anything except the best viscosity for engine.
2 words: Fleet CAFE
Wait till you see what is coming in the future...lots of 0w20 oils will be offered IMO
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