Big Ford EV Announcement Coming Aug 11th

I think I remember the very base was that price because I looked it up at the time. They are not going to lie about that, but it is in the technicalities. No options and maybe not including shipping. Dealers marked everything up, but Ford doesn’t get that markup. I’m probably done for life looking at cars but the markups were crazy at some dealers. The buyers lost a lot of money on add ons they won’t get back ever.
They can advertise any msrp they want if they just never build any. I thought there was a guy here but maybe it was a different forum, I read a few, that had put a deposit and waited months and months and they kept offering him higher trims and so on. I do think he eventually got it. But it was like a year later.

They can advertise anything they want - if they don't build any or only a few they did nothing illegal. Honda outright admitted in a earnings conference call during the same period they were only building higher end trims - bragging about it to their investors.

In most cases most people do not want the base trim, so its just sort of a impression / loss leader type of marketing tool.
 
OMG ... Yes I know, I too have cut out watching and reading too much news. It makes life seem miserable and yet we are living in the best of times.
You used to have a 30 minute night time news on TV and a daily newspaper. What happened yesterday was just about forgot the following day.

Now with the internet, news is 24 hours a day, every second of the day, tied to everyone on their cell phone, every miserable thing going on you click on and it never goes away, ends up in social media. I think sometimes it will be the downfall of a civilized world. Then again, I think too much.
I have adapted to “tile surfing” on the internet - study the titles - consider the source - motives/narratives in mind - decide if it’s worth a look … (click)
 
Advertised base at the time of announcement was 20k. Whether you could get one well ...
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/trucks/a36664434/ford-maverick-pickup-launch/

So here we are 3 years later and the base price is up just about $10,000 33% increase!... oh well and at that price it can tow a whole 1,500 lbs. Nuts ... but the public pays it.
Much the same as the Hyundai Santa Cruz, same price range and if you want to tow 5000 lbs the price jumps to over $40,000 ... insane.
Call me crazy but the insanity of vehicle prices are nuts and I can tell you why. Same as college money.
People will to take out massive loans on both, simple math, if the money if there and the people will take on big finance the company will gladly take your money/price will go up. Filled with over priced luxury. Something has to give, sometimes a reset in our economy isn't a bad thing vs the voluntary servitude that people take on.

I guess I was born at a different time, it's just insane to take out a car loan for more than 3 or 4 years tops. The end is coming. People have now traded negative equity vehicles many times already, adding to the loan each time... I dont know but at some point they will be too negative.
 
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Advertised base at the time of announcement was 20k. Whether you could get one well ...
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/trucks/a36664434/ford-maverick-pickup-launch/

So here we are 3 years later and the base price is up just about $10,000 33% increase!... oh well and at that price it can tow a whole 1,500 lbs. Nuts ... but the public pays it.
Much the same as the Hyundai Santa Cruz, same price range and if you want to tow 5000 lbs the price jumps to over $40,000 ... insane.
Call me crazy but the insanity of vehicle prices are nuts and I can tell you why. Same as college money.
People will to take out massive loans on both, simple math, if the money if there and the people will take on big finance the company will gladly take your money/price will go up. Filled with over priced luxury. Something has to give, sometimes a reset in our economy isn't a bad thing vs the voluntary servitude that people take on.

I guess I was born at a different time, it's just insane to take out a car loan for more than 3 or 4 years tops. The end is coming. People have now traded negative equity vehicles many times already, adding to the loan each time... I dont know but at some point they will be too negative.
I think we confirmed the craziness of college pricing in the other thread.

However vehicle pricing tells a different story - they have more or less kept up with inflation.

Trying to keep somewhat like vehicles - because trends and models have changed.

1971 a Ford Torino was $3895 - CPI adjusted $31,615

1980 a Buick Regal was $8K. CPI adjusted makes it $33K.

2000 a Buick Regal was 19,995. CPI adjusted makes it $38,275

In 2019 Lexus ES (closest example I think to Regal?) was $29,967. CPI Adjusted is $38,459

Source: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/average-car-cost-were-born-130001087.html

Lexus ES current list is slightly over $43K.

So yes, maybe a little faster than inflation. But I am pretty sure new Lexus ES will last twice as long as old Ford Torino - 100K on engine, non galvanized body panels means will rust even here. Proof being average vehicle age on road continues to climb year after year.
 
I think we confirmed the craziness of college pricing in the other thread.

However vehicle pricing tells a different story - they have more or less kept up with inflation.

Trying to keep somewhat like vehicles - because trends and models have changed.

1971 a Ford Torino was $3895 - CPI adjusted $31,615

1980 a Buick Regal was $8K. CPI adjusted makes it $33K.

2000 a Buick Regal was 19,995. CPI adjusted makes it $38,275

In 2019 Lexus ES (closest example I think to Regal?) was $29,967. CPI Adjusted is $38,459

Source: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/average-car-cost-were-born-130001087.html

Lexus ES current list is slightly over $43K.

So yes, maybe a little faster than inflation. But I am pretty sure new Lexus ES will last twice as long as old Ford Torino - 100K on engine, non galvanized body panels means will rust even here. Proof being average vehicle age on road continues to climb year after year.
Yeah but in the context of things the Ford Maverick base price went up 33% in 3 years
Modern electronics and manufacturing in other fields have lowered the price of products. Look at the price of TVs, radios etc.

I think that shows right now in vehicles. They are loaded with options whether you want them or not. So with all those options, cars with creature comforts never imagined in the years you provided are now standard equipment.

https://www.in2013dollars.com/New-cars/price-inflation/1972-to-2025?amount=3500

Ps I get what you are saying though but the fact is cars do not have to be so expensive, however people choose to borrow more than ever for options and extras they do not need. Dealers can stock the cheapest of cheap but people will always borrow a little more for those extras and looks.
 
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Yeah but in the context of things the Ford Maverick base price went up 33% in 3 years
Modern electronics and manufacturing in other fields have lowered the price of products. Look at the price of TVs, radios etc.

I think that shows right now in vehicles. They are loaded with options whether you want them or not. So with all those options, cars with creature comforts never imagined in the years you provided are now standard equipment.

https://www.in2013dollars.com/New-cars/price-inflation/1972-to-2025?amount=3500

Ps I get what you are saying though but the fact is cars do not have to be so expensive, however people choose to borrow more than ever for options and extras they do not need. Dealers can stock the cheapest of cheap but people will always borrow a little more for those extras and looks.
Yes, I hear what your saying - but CPI went up 20+% since the Maverick announcement so really call the increase 13% max. Then that very low level trim originally which they never really built anyway no longer exists, and I don't think they ever planned for it to exist - it was marketing.

Also, the link you posted is fake news. Not blaming you - just don't trust the internet. Its not 11K today, its 27.5K.

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Im am outlier. I dont want half the crap that there is in a truck but have no choice. All I want is a 5000+ tow rating. The only way I will do that as long as I own a boat is the resale market with something possibly still under factory warranty.
The extras are "fun" but they are distracting like in my wife's 25 EQUINOX, THEN AGAIN, you get spoiled not having to have your foot on the brake at traffic lights, heck you dont even have to step on the brakes using cruise control (though I do at the last 20 MPH because I still dont trust it)
Same thing if you're going to back into something, the brakes will apply by themselves. Also you dont have to worry about running off the side of the road as it will self correct.
Never mind the 360 degree camera for parking. Oh let's not forget self (assisted) parallel parking that we never used.

With all that said how long will all this crap last? I have no clue, it does spoil you. Then again, when I simply want to turn on the extra fog lights I have to go through a menu. Granted though there are still a lot of physical controls. Oh and let's not forget the rear view mirror and its setting to use the camera instead of the mirror function. The mirror turns into the camera screen.

Call me nuts. but I got a "basic" ha ha what ever that means 2017 Traverse with the 5100 tow rating, only thing I would change on that truck is to have the self braking cruise. During the height of covid, with no one in the showrooms.
I picked that truck up 3 years old, 24,000 miles, GM certified warranty crap for 21k Impeccable condition ... already those days are gone.
 
+1 They have a hard time keeping air conditioners running during a heatwave, which I find comical at times. Imagine 14% of the cars running around NY were electric?
Crypto uses more electricity than EVs already.

Data centers will likely use 20-100x more power than EVs
And we will all get to subsidize their electric and water use.

Without crypto and data centers our electric rates would be 30% lower and we aren’t even that far along

 
Crypto uses more electricity than EVs already.

Data centers will likely use 20-100x more power than EVs
And we will all get to subsidize their electric and water use.

Without crypto and data centers our electric rates would be 30% lower and we aren’t even that far along


Yep then add to that EV's and all the other things being pushed to go green and the situation goes from bad to worse. As I've said before ICE, gas heat, gas hot water heaters etc. will be around a lot longer than people think.
 
Crypto uses more electricity than EVs already.

Data centers will likely use 20-100x more power than EVs
And we will all get to subsidize their electric and water use.

Without crypto and data centers our electric rates would be 30% lower and we aren’t even that far along


A few things here:
- Calling it "subsidizing" the data centres is a misnomer, they pay for the electricity too
- Supply cost is not only affected by demand, it's also affected by contracts and schemes designed to drive uptake of certain technologies, this compensation is out-of-market
- It is not unusual for large industrial consumers to get better rates than residential/commercial retail, part of the justification for this is that they are typically the loads that curtail during peak demand periods
- The example of Louisiana, they don't mention that Meta has said they are going to add 1,500MW of VRE to "offset" their consumption. This again underscores my point about contracts and schemes driving uptake of certain technologies, typically at a premium. This article says that Meta will pay the power costs of the $3.2bn in gas capacity being constructed, on a 15-year term, which runs contrary to the claim they are only paying half in the video.
- Consumers, collectively, have always borne the cost of infrastructure. Offloading costs of new infrastructure onto a specific class does the opposite of what is being claimed here, everybody is using the product of the datacentre, just like everybody is using the product of the smelter or steel mill, both of which are conventional large consumers that fit in the industrial category.

The real problem is that we haven't built any meaningful volume of new conventional powergen in decades because demand flatlined when everything started being outsourced to China. We have huge amounts of fully depreciated infrastructure, which, in most jurisdictions, has insulted rates from the effects of inflation. I say "most" because in places like California that went hog on subsidy schemes for VRE, their rates obviously went up to not only cover the cost of the assets, but those of the scheme as well. The Federal REC scheme, which also leveraged PPA's (another thing they got wrong in the video, saying that contracts are unusual, they are business as usual for wind and solar projects) has also had an impact on rates in recent years.

It's a complex problem and blaming it on the cost of generators that haven't even been built yet is very reminiscent of folks claiming in 2016 and earlier that the rate increases in Ontario were as a result of the Darlington refurbishment, not the Green Energy Act, even though not a cent had been spent on it yet, because it hadn't even started and we were locked in to cover more than $60 billion in contract costs for the wind and solar installed under the GEA.

Yes, power plants aren't free, but gas plants are cheap, and cheap to operate, they were the primary driver of nuclear shutdowns (mostly single unit plants), which had operating costs in the range of 4 to 6 cents per kWh, to provide some context. Power prices go up when power is scarce, this is a result of increasing demand without increasing supply, the solution is more clean baseload supply on the grid, which will drive down the market price, which in turn will drive down bills. We saw this play out in Alberta, who, after years of phasing out coal and going hog on wind and solar, saw a huge increase in rates. Bringing more gas capacity online has now calmed the market and reduced prices.

In jurisdictions without markets (Quebec) or pseudo markets (Ontario), the market price has no impact on consumer rates. Quebec rates are slated to go up to cover some new hydro builds, but not by a lot, and while Ontario rates have been flat since we elected Ford, we are building new nuclear plants, which is going to increase our cost, though we will also have some of the GEA contracts expiring, which will simultaneously bring them down, so we'll see how that balances out.
 
A few things here:
- Calling it "subsidizing" the data centres is a misnomer, they pay for the electricity too
- Supply cost is not only affected by demand, it's also affected by contracts and schemes designed to drive uptake of certain technologies, this compensation is out-of-market
- It is not unusual for large industrial consumers to get better rates than residential/commercial retail, part of the justification for this is that they are typically the loads that curtail during peak demand periods
- The example of Louisiana, they don't mention that Meta has said they are going to add 1,500MW of VRE to "offset" their consumption. This again underscores my point about contracts and schemes driving uptake of certain technologies, typically at a premium. This article says that Meta will pay the power costs of the $3.2bn in gas capacity being constructed, on a 15-year term, which runs contrary to the claim they are only paying half in

You apparently aren’t familiar with the USs particular horrific version of regulated power costs. A mistake Wisconsin made decades ago is guaranteeing profits on any expenditures our utilities experience and allowing those “costs” to stack onto the fixed cost of having an account.

Wisconsin has built a lot of fossil fuel plants “recently “ that were also nonconforming driving fines that we also then paid for with profit on top because the regulatory body was in bed with the coops. If you look at Weston WI the utility there built unnecessary power plants nobody wanted forcing locals to foot the bill with profit so they could distribute power regionally even as far as Chicago and Canada. The fixed cost for an account went from $9.99 to $49.99 overnight and the cost of a kwhr went from 25 years of 9 cents to 14.xx in a sort period of time

Data centers are already in specific areas and the effect on consumer power bills was immediate just like the Weston 3 fiasco.
Data centers generally own their own substations and repower old plants, and in a regulated market that is devastating to rate payers as they can avoid the municipal substation tax system that exists and drive indirect costs back to consumers.

My apartment is near a datacenter being built and my water / sewer went up from $65 / quarter to $75/month because of infrastructure costs.

All of this is a boondoggle, when it implodes it will likely make things even worse.
 
I adore how Ford is acting like modular manufacturing is some new fangled thing they just came up with - sugar this has been going on for some time now. If they are just now realizing you can take one platform and mold it to whatever size they want they are far more lost than I thought.
 
You apparently aren’t familiar with the USs particular horrific version of regulated power costs. A mistake Wisconsin made decades ago is guaranteeing profits on any expenditures our utilities experience and allowing those “costs” to stack onto the fixed cost of having an account.

Wisconsin has built a lot of fossil fuel plants “recently “ that were also nonconforming driving fines that we also then paid for with profit on top because the regulatory body was in bed with the coops. If you look at Weston WI the utility there built unnecessary power plants nobody wanted forcing locals to foot the bill with profit so they could distribute power regionally even as far as Chicago and Canada. The fixed cost for an account went from $9.99 to $49.99 overnight and the cost of a kwhr went from 25 years of 9 cents to 14.xx in a sort period of time

Data centers are already in specific areas and the effect on consumer power bills was immediate just like the Weston 3 fiasco.
Data centers generally own their own substations and repower old plants, and in a regulated market that is devastating to rate payers as they can avoid the municipal substation tax system that exists and drive indirect costs back to consumers.

My apartment is near a datacenter being built and my water / sewer went up from $65 / quarter to $75/month because of infrastructure costs.

All of this is a boondoggle, when it implodes it will likely make things even worse.
I'm familiar with aspects of it, but the thing with the US is that each district (not necessarily each state) is unique, because of the structure of each "market". It's hard to feel sorry for an increase from 9 to 14 cents when California is paying upwards of 60 cents on peak. Context is important.

Data centres not only have their own substations, but they also often build their own cogen, which they can use to back-feed the grid (at a profit) or island with, reducing grid demand. They are a flexible load, and this gets them a discount. Your water/sewer charges aren't related to powergen, but I can see how that might be a PO.

Microsoft is bringing back TMI1 to power datacentre loads, speaking of repowering old plants, a facility that the utility shutdown because it wasn't cheap enough in the age of cheap natural gas. That's a good thing for emissions and the environment.

Also, as I touched-on there is a LOT of out-of-market stuff that happens that drives consumer costs that you don't see (like PPA's and REC's). Datacentres are an easy boogieman here, but they are a flexible and reliable load, which is very easy to deal with from a grid perspective, I gave some other examples of classic versions of this, I don't recall folks lining up with pitchforks, outraged that Stelco was building a steel mill and needed the power. Quebec has actively courted massive amounts of aluminum smelting precisely because they can power these facilities cheapy with their abundant hydro, and they are flexible loads, willing to curtail when needed during peak demand periods. They are GOOD consumers.

A utility doing stupid things, like building non-conforming plants, isn't a datacentre issue. Ontario spent more than $60 billion on wind and solar subsidies that netted us very little in the way of capacity; almost zero dispatchable capacity, and drove rates up. That was a political decision, it had zilch to do with the loads being served (or not served, since it's mostly gas serving above baseload loads during higher demand periods).

New demand is generally good, because it means growth and new jobs, but it doesn't mean that utilities and/or government aren't going to bugger something up.
 
I'm familiar with aspects of it, but the thing with the US is that each district (not necessarily each state) is unique, because of the structure of each "market". It's hard to feel sorry for an increase from 9 to 14 cents when California is paying upwards of 60 cents on peak. Context is important.

Data centres not only have their own substations, but they also often build their own cogen, which they can use to back-feed the grid (at a profit) or island with, reducing grid demand. They are a flexible load, and this gets them a discount. Your water/sewer charges aren't related to powergen, but I can see how that might be a PO.

Microsoft is bringing back TMI1 to power datacentre loads, speaking of repowering old plants, a facility that the utility shutdown because it wasn't cheap enough in the age of cheap natural gas. That's a good thing for emissions and the environment.

Also, as I touched-on there is a LOT of out-of-market stuff that happens that drives consumer costs that you don't see (like PPA's and REC's). Datacentres are an easy boogieman here, but they are a flexible and reliable load, which is very easy to deal with from a grid perspective, I gave some other examples of classic versions of this, I don't recall folks lining up with pitchforks, outraged that Stelco was building a steel mill and needed the power. Quebec has actively courted massive amounts of aluminum smelting precisely because they can power these facilities cheapy with their abundant hydro, and they are flexible loads, willing to curtail when needed during peak demand periods. They are GOOD consumers.

A utility doing stupid things, like building non-conforming plants, isn't a datacentre issue. Ontario spent more than $60 billion on wind and solar subsidies that netted us very little in the way of capacity; almost zero dispatchable capacity, and drove rates up. That was a political decision, it had zilch to do with the loads being served (or not served, since it's mostly gas serving above baseload loads during higher demand periods).

New demand is generally good, because it means growth and new jobs, but it doesn't mean that utilities and/or government aren't going to bugger something up.
BINGO! The can, they do and apparently will always bugger things up as long as the population sits back and allows it unchecked.

The plant site I retired from allowed themselves to be played like a violin by the area's major power company. My employer had planned and designed a nice new Cogen unit to be built right next to our power house and boilers. All was ready to go. Then the powers that be allowed the electric company to actually bribe them NOT to build it in exchange for a cut in rates. Why would a power company do this? Someone should have asked. (A straight up short term bribe of course. Plus the deal makers at both companies would be long gone , retired by the time the results were realized or not)
In the USA it has been reported that certain politicians gave tons of grant monies to so called "green energy companies" under the promises of huge amounts of new clean energy. Along with plenty of construction jobs with permanent operations and maintenance jobs to support these new facilities.
How many are up and running, putting out this energy of the over 20 green new energy companies that took money? Not a single one. They all took the money and promptly laid everyone off as the CEOs and owners slipped away as they declared bankruptcy. The money (multi millions) is all gone and no one is held responsible or even asked where it went. In addition. NO NEW energy being produced so existing companies still hold a type of monopoly.
 
Even at current prices Ford is selling Mavericks like hotcakes. A fully optioned pickup with AWD (and even an off-road package if you want) for under $40k? Yes. People are buying them as fast as dealers can get them.

To me this clearly indicates that if you build a practical vehicle for a good price it will sell, even if it doesn't look the best inside or out. People are still looking for value.

The announcement Ford made says to me that they are getting this concept, and they want to simply apply the EV treatment to this formula. I hope they can pull it off. Until then I'm loving my '25 Lightning more than I expected to.
 
Even at current prices Ford is selling Mavericks like hotcakes. A fully optioned pickup with AWD (and even an off-road package if you want) for under $40k? Yes. People are buying them as fast as dealers can get them.

To me this clearly indicates that if you build a practical vehicle for a good price it will sell, even if it doesn't look the best inside or out. People are still looking for value.

The announcement Ford made says to me that they are getting this concept, and they want to simply apply the EV treatment to this formula. I hope they can pull it off. Until then I'm loving my '25 Lightning more than I expected to.
(y) I truly hope the Ford Maverick does make it. It is one of the only trucks in the past 20 years I would finally consider buying if it proves not to have some of the engine problems many Fords have reported for several years now. I KNOW, Ford is not even the only one of the Big Three with problems.
 
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Even at current prices Ford is selling Mavericks like hotcakes. A fully optioned pickup with AWD (and even an off-road package if you want) for under $40k? Yes. People are buying them as fast as dealers can get them.

To me this clearly indicates that if you build a practical vehicle for a good price it will sell, even if it doesn't look the best inside or out. People are still looking for value.

The announcement Ford made says to me that they are getting this concept, and they want to simply apply the EV treatment to this formula. I hope they can pull it off. Until then I'm loving my '25 Lightning more than I expected to.
Not saying your wrong about the Maverick, but there not selling that many in actual numbers. Ford is simply playing the grifter "scarcity" game so they can convince people to pay more. Most recent numbers put it at 80K units in first half of the year, which isn't bad but its not "on fire" exactly.

I see lots of them around here being used as service vehicles. Makes sense.
 
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Ford CEO Jim Farley in new interview: "The competitive reality is that the Chinese are the 700-pound gorilla in the EV industry. There's no real competition from Tesla, GM, or Ford with what we've seen from China. It is completely dominating the EV landscape globally and more and more outside of China. China's successful for good reason. It has great innovation at a very low cost," Farley said.

"There's hundreds of companies, and they're all sponsored by their local governments, so they have huge subsidies. It's new brands. It's BYD and Geely, and companies like Nio and Xiaomi, many of which have never been in the car business before, and that's a big advantage for them," he added.

"They have far superior in-vehicle technology. Huawei and Xiaomi are in every car," Farley said. "You get in, you don't have to pair your phone. Automatically, your whole digital life is mirrored in the car. We are in a global competition with China, and it's not just EVs. And if we lose this, we do not have a future Ford."
 
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Ford CEO Jim Farley in new interview: "The competitive reality is that the Chinese are the 700-pound gorilla in the EV industry. There's no real competition from Tesla, GM, or Ford with what we've seen from China. It is completely dominating the EV landscape globally and more and more outside of China. China's successful for good reason. It has great innovation at a very low cost," Farley said.

"There's hundreds of companies, and they're all sponsored by their local governments, so they have huge subsidies. It's new brands. It's BYD and Geely, and companies like Nio and Xiaomi, many of which have never been in the car business before, and that's a big advantage for them," he added.

"They have far superior in-vehicle technology. Huawei and Xiaomi are in every car," Farley said. "You get in, you don't have to pair your phone. Automatically, your whole digital life is mirrored in the car. We are in a global competition with China, and it's not just EVs. And if we lose this, we do not have a future Ford."
I watched the interview, he's right regarding China. I think Ford is heading in the right direction to be honest. Not a fan of Ford anymore, but I think he is doing the right thing. Now if they can get their quality back they'd do a lot better.
 
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