Have you ever seen a K@N on a semi or a backhoe or a front end loader or a cat???
best oil for extremely dirty conditions
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Originally Posted By: Steve S
Have you ever seen a K@N on a semi or a backhoe or a front end loader or a cat???
Nope...
Have you ever seen a K@N on a semi or a backhoe or a front end loader or a cat???
Nope...
Hi,
Steve S - I've even seen OEM paper filters with an air entry centrifuge pre cleaner become clogged after only a few hours - on the rear engine of twin engined scrapers - when working in a "borrow" pit. The dozers and the twin engines can create an enormous amount of abrasive dust in these situations
A poor intake seal can destroy an engine in two or so hours!!!!
In many such locations the aircleaners are removed, shaken clean and all the intake seals inspected at least once every day - even allowing for a restriction guage!
Some of the most efficient air cleaners were the "oil bath" type but their lack of operator servicing saw them replaced by the current materials
Donaldson's EON air cleaner elements are probably the best I have used - expensive, but excellent at the task
Steve S - I've even seen OEM paper filters with an air entry centrifuge pre cleaner become clogged after only a few hours - on the rear engine of twin engined scrapers - when working in a "borrow" pit. The dozers and the twin engines can create an enormous amount of abrasive dust in these situations
A poor intake seal can destroy an engine in two or so hours!!!!
In many such locations the aircleaners are removed, shaken clean and all the intake seals inspected at least once every day - even allowing for a restriction guage!
Some of the most efficient air cleaners were the "oil bath" type but their lack of operator servicing saw them replaced by the current materials
Donaldson's EON air cleaner elements are probably the best I have used - expensive, but excellent at the task
Doug, how much more efficient would you say an oil bath filter is compared with other types. I have a couple small engines that use oil bath filtration and had considered retrofitting them with cartridge type filters.
- sorry, I'm not trying to hijack a thread here it's just that this is a question I've had for some time-
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
Steve S - I've even seen OEM paper filters with an air entry centrifuge pre cleaner become clogged after only a few hours - on the rear engine of twin engined scrapers - when working in a "borrow" pit. The dozers and the twin engines can create an enormous amount of abrasive dust in these situations
A poor intake seal can destroy an engine in two or so hours!!!!
yep, a neighbour is a machine operator in the mines and he's had this happen when working years ago on a CAT dozer with a newly recoed engine. Two hours with an air intake hose not done up properly and the engine had to be pulled and rebuilt again.
Regarding the OP's original Q, no oil will tolerate dust (silicon) regardless of quality or cost, the only thing that will combat dust is air filtration, maybe a by-pass oil filter and more frequent OCI's if silicon/sodium/abrasives increases.
Hi,
Steve S - I've even seen OEM paper filters with an air entry centrifuge pre cleaner become clogged after only a few hours - on the rear engine of twin engined scrapers - when working in a "borrow" pit. The dozers and the twin engines can create an enormous amount of abrasive dust in these situations
A poor intake seal can destroy an engine in two or so hours!!!!
yep, a neighbour is a machine operator in the mines and he's had this happen when working years ago on a CAT dozer with a newly recoed engine. Two hours with an air intake hose not done up properly and the engine had to be pulled and rebuilt again.
Regarding the OP's original Q, no oil will tolerate dust (silicon) regardless of quality or cost, the only thing that will combat dust is air filtration, maybe a by-pass oil filter and more frequent OCI's if silicon/sodium/abrasives increases.
Hi,
greenaccord02 - It is a hard ask to measure efficiency unless this is done in strictly controlled conditions
This is why of course for static engines (some gensets, compressors and the likes) the manufacturer has continued to use oil bath cleaners. Some dozers etc too! When they are correctly specified for the task - especially for flow and air velocity - they are IIRC maybe up to 10% or perhaps more efficient than others. Oil viscosity plays a role too. Of course in many of these applications a centrifuge pre-cleaner assists immensely and an oil bath cleaner completes the "package"' very well indeed
Of course this is the "principle" of the K&N type filters - using an oil dampened media - except that with the oil bath the oil is constantly circulating into and from the filtration media
IME they are superb in the correctly specified application. If I had one on any engine of mine as original equipment it would stay there!
Servicing problems and some flow restriction due to space pre-clude their use in cars & trucks
They were of course used successfully by VW for decades!
As mentioned earlier - the lubricant in the engine is directly affected by the air filtration aspect. A poorly filtered air intake will not be negated by the best oil around!
greenaccord02 - It is a hard ask to measure efficiency unless this is done in strictly controlled conditions
This is why of course for static engines (some gensets, compressors and the likes) the manufacturer has continued to use oil bath cleaners. Some dozers etc too! When they are correctly specified for the task - especially for flow and air velocity - they are IIRC maybe up to 10% or perhaps more efficient than others. Oil viscosity plays a role too. Of course in many of these applications a centrifuge pre-cleaner assists immensely and an oil bath cleaner completes the "package"' very well indeed
Of course this is the "principle" of the K&N type filters - using an oil dampened media - except that with the oil bath the oil is constantly circulating into and from the filtration media
IME they are superb in the correctly specified application. If I had one on any engine of mine as original equipment it would stay there!
Servicing problems and some flow restriction due to space pre-clude their use in cars & trucks
They were of course used successfully by VW for decades!
As mentioned earlier - the lubricant in the engine is directly affected by the air filtration aspect. A poorly filtered air intake will not be negated by the best oil around!
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Thank you for such a detailed answer. The oil baths will remain in service.
I'd respectfully disagree Doug re the oil bath filters.
I'll have to try and find an explanation from Ben as to why they weren't as good as a properly sized conventional element, but IIRC it had to do with the method of dust removal (impaction on the media, usually steel wool) and the space between the media (fairly large) and how they didn't filter efficiently down to the small micron levels of a fibrous media.
The oil is merely used to hold the dust that slides off the media into the sump.
Again, IIRC, velocity through the media was critical too.
He has worked as an independent research consultant to Donaldson, Cummins and Mann-Hummel on air filtration, so he knows his stuff.
Most good paper elements start at better than 98.5% efficient according to the relevant ISO test and end up being better than 99.5-99.9% efficient at the end of their useful life.
FWIW, my old Fiat tractor has an oil bath filter and I couldn't be bothered trying to fit a paper element housing. i don't use it enough
I'll have to try and find an explanation from Ben as to why they weren't as good as a properly sized conventional element, but IIRC it had to do with the method of dust removal (impaction on the media, usually steel wool) and the space between the media (fairly large) and how they didn't filter efficiently down to the small micron levels of a fibrous media.
The oil is merely used to hold the dust that slides off the media into the sump.
Again, IIRC, velocity through the media was critical too.
He has worked as an independent research consultant to Donaldson, Cummins and Mann-Hummel on air filtration, so he knows his stuff.
Most good paper elements start at better than 98.5% efficient according to the relevant ISO test and end up being better than 99.5-99.9% efficient at the end of their useful life.
FWIW, my old Fiat tractor has an oil bath filter and I couldn't be bothered trying to fit a paper element housing. i don't use it enough
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Originally Posted By: tdi-rick
The oil is merely used to hold the dust that slides off the media into the sump.
...not exactly,the oil actually captures the heavier dust particles before the air enters the oily mesh...
They were successfully used for decades in mercedes om636,621,61x engines too...
The oil is merely used to hold the dust that slides off the media into the sump.
...not exactly,the oil actually captures the heavier dust particles before the air enters the oily mesh...
They were successfully used for decades in mercedes om636,621,61x engines too...
We have an oil bath filter on an old IH tractor. The engine gets a synthetic blend 10w-40. Is that good for year around use in the filter?
Ambient temperature is -20C to 35C. What's the right viscosity to use in that filter, "lighter" or "heavier"?
Ambient temperature is -20C to 35C. What's the right viscosity to use in that filter, "lighter" or "heavier"?
Originally Posted By: Extreme-Duty
We have an oil bath filter on an old IH tractor. The engine gets a synthetic blend 10w-40. Is that good for year around use in the filter?
Ambient temperature is -20C to 35C. What's the right viscosity to use in that filter, "lighter" or "heavier"?
When I had one on my 1968 Willys CJ5 lighter was better.
A 30wt is going to move more and "wick" up better than a 50wt. Esp in the cooler temps.
The weight of the oil does not matter as far as which weight will catch more dust. Oil is oil. But movement is important.
Bill
We have an oil bath filter on an old IH tractor. The engine gets a synthetic blend 10w-40. Is that good for year around use in the filter?
Ambient temperature is -20C to 35C. What's the right viscosity to use in that filter, "lighter" or "heavier"?
When I had one on my 1968 Willys CJ5 lighter was better.
A 30wt is going to move more and "wick" up better than a 50wt. Esp in the cooler temps.
The weight of the oil does not matter as far as which weight will catch more dust. Oil is oil. But movement is important.
Bill
When I owned an oil bath type filter in an old Freightliner and did the service, I would use Chevron 30w and add a cup or so of diesel fuel to thin it a bit. An old timer taught me that trick. However, if it rained the oil would need changing the next day.
I think the switch to dry air cleaners is/was for a quicker service and longer service life. Those old oil bath filters really worked.
As for you original question to that answer.....the best oil for dirty conditions would be the oil that keeps the dirt in suspension so the filter can remove the dirt.
I think the switch to dry air cleaners is/was for a quicker service and longer service life. Those old oil bath filters really worked.
As for you original question to that answer.....the best oil for dirty conditions would be the oil that keeps the dirt in suspension so the filter can remove the dirt.
Thank you!
Isn't a 10w-40 much like a straight 30-weight in the 70-80F range?
A little diesel sounds good too. The diesel should enable me to use the cheapest 15w40 dino oil from grocer or hardware store.
Isn't a 10w-40 much like a straight 30-weight in the 70-80F range?
A little diesel sounds good too. The diesel should enable me to use the cheapest 15w40 dino oil from grocer or hardware store.
Hi,
tdi-rick - You said:
"Our old tractor specifies the same weight oil in the air cleaner as the engine (in this case 20W-40) so I just use 15w40."
This is most common and my MB WSMs on OMs say the same. Some MB OM engines offered either oil bath or paper filter options and in some cases as tandems of each according to the type of application. Oil Bath filters were always recommended for very dusty operations
In very cold conditions the diesel or kero option was/is widely used too
tdi-rick - You said:
"Our old tractor specifies the same weight oil in the air cleaner as the engine (in this case 20W-40) so I just use 15w40."
This is most common and my MB WSMs on OMs say the same. Some MB OM engines offered either oil bath or paper filter options and in some cases as tandems of each according to the type of application. Oil Bath filters were always recommended for very dusty operations
In very cold conditions the diesel or kero option was/is widely used too
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Yeah the equipment is working in a dust cloud!
A quick story agout how important air filters are . I was sent out to service a fairly new rental department forklift . During the service I found the air filter the service manager gave me was incorrect .I called in and I was told in a very snotty way it was the correct filter and put it in. Well the service manager was the smartest person the company I worked for ever hired so I did . Well 100 hours later the engine was burning oil really bad ,the engine was rebuilt and a new incorrect filter was again installed ,you already know about the service manager so 100 hours later "by the way was the rental departments service schedual" the engine was again burning oil really bad. Again the engine was rebuilt " a Perkins engine is pricey to rebuild" I told the shop guy about the wrong filter story so with a smile he put in the correct filter and no more 100 hour rebuilds .The engines by the way go 15,000 hours + easy So the moral of the story is the air filter is the most important filter you can put on an engine along with seaked intake plumbing..
Originally Posted By: pioneer
thanks everyone for the advice. all the engines do have a restriction gauge, the filter can look pretty dirty before the gauge will show any restriction, the '97 does have the prefilter which is nice.
If the restriction gauge is doing its job, then it is a more reliable indicator of when to change the air filter than how dirty the filter looks.
Opening up the filter housing, breaking the seal around the edge of the filter, lets more dirt pass through. Trust the gauge, change the filter when the gauge says the filter is getting clogged.
thanks everyone for the advice. all the engines do have a restriction gauge, the filter can look pretty dirty before the gauge will show any restriction, the '97 does have the prefilter which is nice.
If the restriction gauge is doing its job, then it is a more reliable indicator of when to change the air filter than how dirty the filter looks.
Opening up the filter housing, breaking the seal around the edge of the filter, lets more dirt pass through. Trust the gauge, change the filter when the gauge says the filter is getting clogged.
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