Best Engine Cleaning Additive?

[expat]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: expat
I have often wondered, what is so bad about adding solvents or solvent assisted cleaners (such as MMO) SHORT TERM to motor oil?

I have yet to see a bad UOA where solvent additives have been used judiciously.

To take things to extremes, Two Stroke engines have their lubrication oil diluted drastically with a solvent....Gasoline!


And yet, no one adds gasoline to their four stroke oil.


We add it all the time! In extreme cases we call it cylinder wash and our crank case oil will even smell of gasoline.
But that is an extreme abnormal condition.

 

[TuBon_gRips]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: expat
I have often wondered, what is so bad about adding solvents or solvent assisted cleaners (such as MMO) SHORT TERM to motor oil?

I have yet to see a bad UOA where solvent additives have been used judiciously.

To take things to extremes, Two Stroke engines have their lubrication oil diluted drastically with a solvent....Gasoline!


And yet, no one adds gasoline to their four stroke oil.


most people do, actually, just by driving

 

[TuBon_gRips]

Originally Posted By: expat
I have often wondered, what is so bad about adding solvents or solvent assisted cleaners (such as MMO) SHORT TERM to motor oil?

I have yet to see a bad UOA where solvent additives have been used judiciously.

To take things to extremes, Two Stroke engines have their lubrication oil diluted drastically with a solvent....Gasoline!


would a uoa on PU with 12.5% MMO satisfy that? i should have results in a couple of days; depending on the report, i may run it in my wife's car for 3k, as it was in mine for less than that

edit: i misread, didn't see that you specified "bad" uoa... hopefully i won't have one to show you

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: expat
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: expat
I have often wondered, what is so bad about adding solvents or solvent assisted cleaners (such as MMO) SHORT TERM to motor oil?

I have yet to see a bad UOA where solvent additives have been used judiciously.

To take things to extremes, Two Stroke engines have their lubrication oil diluted drastically with a solvent....Gasoline!


And yet, no one adds gasoline to their four stroke oil.


We add it all the time! In extreme cases we call it cylinder wash and our crank case oil will even smell of gasoline.
But that is an extreme abnormal condition.


You know what I meant. Add a quart or two and run it for 6,000 miles.

Or, add a quart of Mobil 1 0w-40 to the gas for a few tanks.

 

[expat]

Well people Do add oil to their gas, as a UCL. But it's normally a Two stroke oil that's designed to burn clean.

Gas in the crankcase oil?
I guess it would be too volatile to stay around long enough to do much cleaning.


FWIW I do not advocat adding anything to a good motor oil, but feel in some cases, SOMETHING has to be done, an additive can be a more viable attempt at a solution than a Tear- down.

In that case, I ask again, What's so bad with solvent assisted cleaners?

 

[Trajan]

What I'm thinking is that if the cleaner is strong enough to strip all the stuff you don't want, it's strong enough to strip off what you do want. Say the boundry lubrication layer.

 

[expat]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
What I'm thinking is that if the cleaner is strong enough to strip all the stuff you don't want, it's strong enough to strip off what you do want. Say the boundry lubrication layer.



I would say (as a Layman) the boundary layer is a result of Viscosity and pressure.
Sure a solvent will reduce viscosity, which is why it should be used judiciously.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: expat
Originally Posted By: Trajan
What I'm thinking is that if the cleaner is strong enough to strip all the stuff you don't want, it's strong enough to strip off what you do want. Say the boundry lubrication layer.



I would say (as a Layman) the boundary layer is a result of Viscosity and pressure.
Sure a solvent will reduce viscosity, which is why it should be used judiciously.


Could be. (Layman here too.) What I'm getting at is that the solvent will strip off the oil on all the parts above the sump. Maybe

Some people would fill it with kerosene, let it sit overnight, maybe two, then drain and fill.

 

[expat]

"
Some people would fill it with kerosene, let it sit overnight, maybe two, then drain and fill."

I think AE Haas once said Kerosine + the right Add package might make a good motor oil (or words to that effect)
Personally, I'd leave it to him to find out ;-)

Kerosine or Stoddard solvent works well in a parts washer, but works best with some agitation to physically remove Grime etc.
Not easy to arrange in an assembled engine.

However small quantities of solvents ADDED TO motor oil DO seem to clean, and as I said, I have yet to see a bad UOA where a solvent assisted cleaner has been used judiciously.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: expat
Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: expat
I have often wondered, what is so bad about adding solvents or solvent assisted cleaners (such as MMO) SHORT TERM to motor oil?

I have yet to see a bad UOA where solvent additives have been used judiciously.

To take things to extremes, Two Stroke engines have their lubrication oil diluted drastically with a solvent....Gasoline!


And yet, no one adds gasoline to their four stroke oil.


We add it all the time! In extreme cases we call it cylinder wash and our crank case oil will even smell of gasoline.
But that is an extreme abnormal condition.



It is notable that fuel dilution in UOA's seems to do no harm in any engine we see it in, despite all the hoo-hah it will generate.

And if solvents remove everything then where are all the destroyed engines? I have about a dozen different Kreen 'victims' around this area running very well even after multiple dosings.

V-8, V-6, straight 6, 4 banger, motorcycle, yard blower, chain saw... Kreen hasn't seemed to harm any of them at all. Many have had dramatic benefits in a very short time. You would think the 2 strokers would have a problem with additional solvent in their oil?

Greatly overblown hazards pushed by detractors without any evidence. The very same thing that Trajan will immediately chime in about.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


Greatly overblown hazards pushed by detractors without any evidence. The very same thing that Trajan will immediately chime in about.


Exactly, only here he's trying a different approach.

 

[Mystic]

Based on the experiences of a large number of guys at this website, maybe the best engline cleaning additive consists of a good cleaning motor oil, like Pennzoil Platinum or Mobil 1 HM, and MMO, Kreen, or Neutra added in the correct amount to the oil and used for the correct amount of time.

 

[midnightlaundry]

Does Marvel Mystery Oil evaporate?

 

[panthermike]

Originally Posted By: midnightlaundry
Does Marvel Mystery Oil evaporate?


It does have a flashpoint of 128F, but I don't find that it evaporates in apps that I've used it, at least not completely. I once ran a 3K OCI on the Corolla with MC5K and 16oz. of MMO and the oil level never changed during the interval.

 

[midnightlaundry]

Thanks.

 

[expat]

Originally Posted By: midnightlaundry
Does Marvel Mystery Oil evaporate?


I would guess the solvent content would tend to evaporate fairly quickly, other components in MMO may, or may not.
I have only used the product in my oil pan once, 1k before an OCI, during winter months.
I did not notice any significant loss.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: expat
Well people Do add oil to their gas, as a UCL. But it's normally a Two stroke oil that's designed to burn clean.

Gas in the crankcase oil?
I guess it would be too volatile to stay around long enough to do much cleaning.


FWIW I do not advocat adding anything to a good motor oil, but feel in some cases, SOMETHING has to be done, an additive can be a more viable attempt at a solution than a Tear- down.

In that case, I ask again, What's so bad with solvent assisted cleaners?


GM and Hyundai both have current warnings about the use of non approved flush additives causing direct damage to engine seals used in petrol cars.
Idle only pre OCI flushes seem fairly safe apart from the risk of causing an oil leak if the engine seals or gaskets are in a poor condition. A similar problem can sometimes be caused by changing to some full synthetic oils and it is caused by what is called a false seal, where varnish has formed around an old damaged oil seal and is helping it function.
It is mush riskier using a drive around flush if the engine has a turbo, because turbo bearings are at least ten times more easily damaged than engine bearings if the oil filter gets blocked by dislodged sludge, the oil pump feed screen or even the oil feed line to the turbo blocks.
If you think you have got a serious case of black death, it is far better to at least remove the sump and clean it along with the oil pump intake screen, as that is the real engine killer if it blocks.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: expat
Well people Do add oil to their gas, as a UCL. But it's normally a Two stroke oil that's designed to burn clean.

Gas in the crankcase oil?
I guess it would be too volatile to stay around long enough to do much cleaning.


FWIW I do not advocat adding anything to a good motor oil, but feel in some cases, SOMETHING has to be done, an additive can be a more viable attempt at a solution than a Tear- down.

In that case, I ask again, What's so bad with solvent assisted cleaners?


GM and Hyundai both have current warnings about the use of non approved flush additives causing direct damage to engine seals used in petrol cars.
Idle only pre OCI flushes seem fairly safe apart from the risk of causing an oil leak if the engine seals or gaskets are in a poor condition. A similar problem can sometimes be caused by changing to some full synthetic oils and it is caused by what is called a false seal, where varnish has formed around an old damaged oil seal and is helping it function.
It is mush riskier using a drive around flush if the engine has a turbo, because turbo bearings are at least ten times more easily damaged than engine bearings if the oil filter gets blocked by dislodged sludge, the oil pump feed screen or even the oil feed line to the turbo blocks.
If you think you have got a serious case of black death, it is far better to at least remove the sump and clean it along with the oil pump intake screen, as that is the real engine killer if it blocks.


You've beaten this poor horse to death. I'm curious what idle flushes do they recommend, and why?

 

[skyship]

GM have an approved direct action solvent cleaner used through the spark plug holes to help remove carbon deposits, they also have a fuel system cleaner, but for some reason don't have an approved engine flush machine, unlike VW and some other manufacturers.
This still appears to be their attitude towards flushes:

Vehicle - Engine Crankcase and Subsystems Flushing Info.INFORMATION
Bulletin No.: 04-06-01-029E Date: April 29, 2010

Subject:
Unnecessary Flushing Services, Additive Recommendations and ProperUtilization of GM Simplified Maintenance Schedule to Enhance Customer ServiceExperience

Models:
2011 and Prior GM Passenger Cars and Trucks (including Saturn)2010 and Prior HUMMER H2, H32005-2009 Saab 9-7XSupercede:This bulletin is being revised to update the model years and add information aboutthe proper transmission flush procedure. Please discard Corporate BulletinNumber 04-06-01-029D (Section 06 - Engine/Propulsion System).

An Overview of Proper Vehicle Service
General Motors is aware that some companies are marketing tools and equipment to support a subsystem flushing procedures. These dedicated machines are in addition to many engine oil, cooling system, fuel system, A/C, transmission flush and steering system additives available to the consumer. GM Vehicles under normal usage do not require any additional procedures or additives beyond what isadvised under the former Vehicle Maintenance Schedules or the current Simplified Maintenance Schedules. Do not confuse machines available from Kent-Moore/SPX that are designed to aid and accelerate the process of fluid changing with these flushing machines.

Engine Crankcase Flushing
General Motors Corporation does not endorse or recommend engine crankcase flushing for any of its gasoline engines. Analysis of some of the aftermarket materials used for crankcase flushing indicate incompatibility with GM engine oil seals.

 

[demarpaint]

You said this: General Motors Corporation does not endorse or recommend engine crankcase flushing for any of its gasoline engines.

They even contradict themselves. lol