Best 20 gauge self defense ammo

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Originally Posted By: clarkflower
No kids in the house and not real worried about walls..but that said I could have bought a 12 if I didn't care at all.
I'm looking for just a tiny bit of overkill if you'll pardon the expression


#4 buck 2 3/4 ; skip the 3" - an extra shell or two is more important for multiple perps!
 
Good advice ! #4 buck in 2 and 3/4inch shells .
Originally Posted By: oldoak2000
Originally Posted By: clarkflower
No kids in the house and not real worried about walls..but that said I could have bought a 12 if I didn't care at all.
I'm looking for just a tiny bit of overkill if you'll pardon the expression


#4 buck 2 3/4 ; skip the 3" - an extra shell or two is more important for multiple perps!
 
I'm a fan of several different shells in the mag. Maybe large birdshot (#2 or BB), then smaller buck, then larger, then slugs. I figure increasing penetration if something is getting closer, or better range if it's moving away.
For self defense, I'd suggest only commercial loads.
 
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: ATex7239
It's doesn't matter what gauge, stick with either 00 buck, 000 buck, or slug for HD.


Oh, it absolutely matters what gauge. You have to look at the inside diameter of the shell to find what size buckshot fits properly. In this case, 00 and 000 DON'T fit properly, hence the reason why no one sells it, and its unavailable.

#3 Buckshot is the standard recommendation for a defensive cartridge in 20 gauge.


All I shoot is 12 and .410, both having 00 and 000 buck loadings. I guess, never owning a 20 gauge myself, I just assumed 00 and 000 were also available for the 20.

Not sure why they couldnt fit 00 or 000 pellets into the 20 casing... .410 is only a .410 bore, while 20 is a .62 bore, and 12 being a .74, IIRC...

I would think if the 410 could handle it, so could the 20. Learn something new everyday.
 
I also have a .410 and several 12's - nothing else - the .410 shot stack up and reckon the 12 gauge just has plenty room to not wedge/jam side by side ...
 
Originally Posted By: 4WD
I also have a .410 and several 12's - nothing else - the .410 shot stack up and reckon the 12 gauge just has plenty room to not wedge/jam side by side ...


That makes sense. The 20's could be the perfect storm for 00 and 000 pellets to jam. Very interesting. So, to me, solidifies two things...

1. I'm not getting a 20 gauge any time soon.
2. And, if I did, I'd be shooting slugs for HD
 
It has to do with proper stack of the pellets. You COULD fit 00 or 000 in a 20 gauge shell, but they would not be uniformly stacked, and would have a terrible pattern. It's also likely that they would only fit a limited number of pellets due to the odd pellet stacking.
 
Originally Posted By: mjk
#4 Turkey Load, in heavier than Lead loading. I.E. - Wingmaster HD, Winchester Extended Range..


Yes, when your house is being invaded by turkeys. Otherwise, no.
 
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: mjk
#4 Turkey Load, in heavier than Lead loading. I.E. - Wingmaster HD, Winchester Extended Range..


Yes, when your house is being invaded by turkeys. Otherwise, no.

laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: mjk
#4 Turkey Load, in heavier than Lead loading. I.E. - Wingmaster HD, Winchester Extended Range..


Yes, when your house is being invaded by turkeys. Otherwise, no.

I still can't really imagine getting shot at 5 yards with a 12g 3"+ turkey load or two and wanting to keep coming at someone... If the bad guy was dressed for -40C I guess he might survive but I doubt they would decide getting another one would be a good idea.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I still can't really imagine getting shot at 5 yards with a 12g 3"+ turkey load or two and wanting to keep coming at someone...


Forget turkey loads, and forget 2. I can't imagine someone getting shot with a single 1 ounce 12 gauge Trap Load at 5 yards, and still want to keep coming at someone. ANY 12 gauge load is going to be devastating on a human from across an interior room. And I don't care what they're wearing.
 
There are NUMEROUS cases of folks shot with bird-shot who continued attacking. Bird shot only works on "non-committed, non-determined" attackers. A suicidal attacker that plans to die (domestic abusive husband or terrorist) or a person high on drugs (Miami face-eating zombie) can still kill you after several shots of bird shot. The miami zombie grunted after being shot twice by a police officer, and then went back to his meal, which consisted of the face/eyeballs of a homeless guy. You want to defend your home from that guy with bird shot?

You can use a way less effective ammo if you want, but I have PERSONAL experience dealing with suicidal subjects, and PCP/bath salt subjects. They are out there, in rather large numbers.

8 to 30 buckshot pellets blasting a hole through somebody tends to cause massive exsanguination (blood loss) which takes the fight out people with a quickness. Even those folks that are high as a kite, or suicidal. No REAL expert recommends the use of bird shot, for good reason.

People that say that a person would not continue their attack after getting shot, would be right most of the time. Most times, a person after being shot would quit, and exit the premises for a better ambiance. But, they do not take into account suicidal or drugged subjects. Ask any street cop in an average size city, and they will tell you that they deal with volatile suicidal subjects, or volatile drugged subjects on a weekly basis. This inst a very rare event. It happens daily, all across America, all the time.
 
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
There are NUMEROUS cases of folks shot with bird-shot who continued attacking..


Please cite a couple or 3. An ounce of shot at over 1400 fps is a bunch of energy and momentum ... and a big hole going in. It's more momentum than a 30-06 for example, and about as much energy.
 
Originally Posted By: George Bynum
Please cite a couple or 3. An ounce of shot at over 1400 fps is a bunch of energy and momentum ... and a big hole going in. It's more momentum than a 30-06 for example, and about as much energy.


And remember, we're talking about 15 feet away, or less.
 
Originally Posted By: George Bynum
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
There are NUMEROUS cases of folks shot with bird-shot who continued attacking..


Please cite a couple or 3. An ounce of shot at over 1400 fps is a bunch of energy and momentum ... and a big hole going in. It's more momentum than a 30-06 for example, and about as much energy.


I believe what's at issue is that the pellets act independently. A #2 pellet at 1300fps only has 20 ft/lbs at the muzzle. It drops energy quickly because it has a low mass. The wound is ugly because of the number of pellets, but does not penetrate well because of this.
 
I've said on here before, and elsewhere, but bird shot is pain compliance. We cannot count on pain compliance alone to incapacitate another person.

Balistically, bullets stop people in three ways.
1) pain (I've been shot, I give up! Call me an ambulance please!)
2) blood loss
3) brain/spinal damage

Bird shot cannot RELIABLY incapacitate via 2 or 3. Thus, it is not recommended for self defense.

Tasers are a pain compliance less lethal option. Pepper spray is a pain compliance less lethal option. Bird shot is certainly more lethal than pepper spray or taser, but barely more effective in a DETERMINED attacker. Period. Close the thread.

If you value your life, you do not, will not, and will never load your self defense shotgun with bird shot.
 
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Ballistically, bullets stop people in three ways.
1) pain (I've been shot, I give up! Call me an ambulance please!)
2) blood loss
3) brain/spinal damage.


4. asphyxiation (sucking chest wounds can cause death from asphyxiation faster than blood loss.)

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Period. Close the thread

grin.gif
 
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
I've said on here before, and elsewhere, but bird shot is pain compliance. We cannot count on pain compliance alone to incapacitate another person.

Balistically, bullets stop people in three ways.
1) pain (I've been shot, I give up! Call me an ambulance please!)
2) blood loss
3) brain/spinal damage

Bird shot cannot RELIABLY incapacitate via 2 or 3. Thus, it is not recommended for self defense.

Tasers are a pain compliance less lethal option. Pepper spray is a pain compliance less lethal option. Bird shot is certainly more lethal than pepper spray or taser, but barely more effective in a DETERMINED attacker. Period. Close the thread.

If you value your life, you do not, will not, and will never load your self defense shotgun with bird shot.


And, in order of speed of threat resolution:

1. CNS hit
2. Blood loss
3. Pain

But since a CNS shot is harder to make than a center of mass shot, and center of mass reliably causes pain and blood loss, aim for center of mass. It's only when center of mass fails (and one suspects body armor) that you aim for the CNS via head shot. A "two to the body, one to the head" shot discipline is one approach to hedge all of the bets in target effects and shot placement.

I've not heard of asphyxiation being a cause...but it would make sense if the shots didn't hit the spine or a major blood vessel in a center mass set of shots. I don't think I would want to wait until a sucking chest wound convinced an assailant to give up the fight. If they're that determined, willing to fight through the pain, then I would recommend continuing to apply lethal force to resolve/eliminate the threat.

Further, bird shot is for birds. Period. It only causes pain as Bubba said. It won't incapacitate because it won't cause the blood loss or Central Nervous System impact that is necessary to stop a determined assailant.
 
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Originally Posted By: George Bynum
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
There are NUMEROUS cases of folks shot with bird-shot who continued attacking..


Please cite a couple or 3. An ounce of shot at over 1400 fps is a bunch of energy and momentum ... and a big hole going in. It's more momentum than a 30-06 for example, and about as much energy.


There are so many! **** Cheney's hunting partner comes to mind. Had he been hit in the face with a .30-06, it would've been quite different.
 
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