Beretta "M9A3"

[CarbonSteel]

A few tweaks to the age-old M9 for the military:

Shooting the Beretta M9A3

Some much needed albeit minor updates (surprised it took this long). I would like to shoot one just to see if the new grip profile makes a difference.

What say you? Good or bad?

 

[Robenstein]

They should have moved the safety to the frame. That was a complaint about the current design they did not address. Funny since they certainly can, and have done it before.

Also, I think they need to fix the open area on the slide where the locking blocks engage to keep crud out of there, like Walther did on the p38 when they invented the idea.

 

[AMC]

This new version of the M9 is about 10 years too late. The changes the M9A3 has to it, brings the gun roughly up to date I suppose. A polymer frame, frame mounted safety, interchangeable backstraps, and maybe a few other little things could be added to really bring the gun up to date. The FN FNX series pistols did a good job of being a small arms manufacturer's "best guess" of what the army said they were looking for last time they said they want a new pistol.

The army and other branches, being so slow and hesitant to change weapons systems, might just accept this new A3 version from Beretta simply because Beretta has made it so easy for them.

It will be interesting to see how this new pistol choice plays out. I would really like to see the army adopt the Smith and Wesson M&P or the FN FNX in whatever caliber they choose. If the army does choose some sort of double action trigger system, hopefully they drop the requirement for a manual safety. That is another thing that the army must be 20 years behind the curve on also. The double action trigger pull IS all the extra margin of safety you need!

Anyways, stay tuned on this one!

 

[Robenstein]

They are slow to adopt new guns. They first thought of ditching the 1911 in the mid 50's. The S&W 39 was the prime candidate back then.

The Army has already passed on evaluating the M9A3 back in January. But something tells me, that like the previous attempts to get rid of the AR platform in the past 20 years, we might see the Beretta as the standard for a while longer. The Army is really stingy when it comes to rifles, let alone side arms.

My only concern with polymer guns would be that UV really can degrade them. It would be cool, in my opinion, if someone made a metal framed gun that had replaceable steel rails.

 

[BlownF150]

Quote:
Also, I think they need to fix the open area on the slide where the locking blocks engage to keep crud out of there, like Walther did on the p38 when they invented the idea.



Sand in Ft. Benning doesn't jam them. Neither does the fine stuff. Anyone who actually looked at the lugs and measured the clearance knows why this isn't an issue. Any crud is swept away by the slide and anything that could get possibly gum up the internals enough to cause a stoppage would do the same to a Glock, Sig, or 1911. By any reasonable and objective standard the M9 is a better combat handgun than the 1911.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: BlownF150
Quote:
Also, I think they need to fix the open area on the slide where the locking blocks engage to keep crud out of there, like Walther did on the p38 when they invented the idea.



Sand in Ft. Benning doesn't jam them. Neither does the fine stuff. Anyone who actually looked at the lugs and measured the clearance knows why this isn't an issue. Any crud is swept away by the slide and anything that could get possibly gum up the internals enough to cause a stoppage would do the same to a Glock, Sig, or 1911. By any reasonable and objective standard the M9 is a better combat handgun than the 1911.


Nothing of my statement declared it to be inferior. I actually have a 92, its older brother the 951, and its Brazilian step child a PT92. I enjoy the system, it just never made sense to have that area open on the 92. Any area where dirt can intrude should be eliminated, if not for reliability, for durability since crud is abrasive and can accelerate wear an reduce the longevity of parts.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
But something tells me, that like the previous attempts to get rid of the AR platform in the past 20 years,


Bingo. They do these multi million dollar evaluations every few years and always go back to what they have. They have used the M16/AR15 variant for 50 years now. 50 years is an incredibly long service life for a weapon. Their evaluations always come back that yes, there are better guns out there, but not substantially better. If it is not substantially better, it doesn't make sense financially to replace them. The Beretta has already been tested as the most reliable pistol on the planet, so there is about a 1% chance that they will replace it.

 

[BlownF150]

Quote:
I enjoy the system, it just never made sense to have that area open on the 92. Any area where dirt can intrude should be eliminated, if not for reliability, for durability since crud is abrasive and can accelerate wear an reduce the longevity of parts.


Anyone who's used any firearm in dirty conditions knows that having a full shrouded slide does almost nothing to keep out dirt and grit. At least with the Beretta you can wipe it off without disassembly. Got a lot of old M9's in the armory, they all work just fine with very little care and a lot of grit exposure over the years.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The updated M9A3 design looks good ... seems they have addressed everything possible.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: BlownF150
Quote:
I enjoy the system, it just never made sense to have that area open on the 92. Any area where dirt can intrude should be eliminated, if not for reliability, for durability since crud is abrasive and can accelerate wear an reduce the longevity of parts.


Anyone who's used any firearm in dirty conditions knows that having a full shrouded slide does almost nothing to keep out dirt and grit. At least with the Beretta you can wipe it off without disassembly. Got a lot of old M9's in the armory, they all work just fine with very little care and a lot of grit exposure over the years.


As I said before..not advocating a fully enclosed slide...just that one area of the slide. You are exaggerating my objections sir. And I can tell you that the sand is having an effect on the guns in the middle east as we are chewing through the pistols at a pretty decent rate in terms of frame rail wear from what I am reading and hearing from soldiers. Again, that is why I wish they would modify the design for replaceable rails. It would substantially increase the life of the pistol. As for the Beretta being the most reliable pistol in the world...just remember the Sig 226 also passed every test the Govt threw at it. Beretta was selected for cost, not because it held a distinct edge.

 

[KCJeep]

Where can one see these test results?

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Where can one see these test results?


Military testing follows a standard called Mean Rounds Between Stoppage (MRBS). You can still find the testing online (somewhere)

I found this little burb on the net: Beretta tests, monitored by US military observers, have found that random pistols chosen from the M9 production lines for testing fire an average of 22,500 rounds without a stoppage. In one test session, under Army supervision, twelve M9 pistols were pulled randomly from the production line and fired a total of 168,000 rounds without a single malfunction.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Where can one see these test results?


You can also google around for the history on the XM9 pistol trials that resulted in Beretta with the 92 and SIG Sauer with the 226 finishing on top of the entries by Colt(SSP), S&W (659), Walther(p88), Steyr(GB), Star(28), and even Ruger who came along during the XM10 tests with the P85.

Beretta beat out Sig on total cost. The cost per pistol was higher than SIG, but the parts and accessories brought the total bid lower, so Beretta won the contract.

 

[Robenstein]

The real problem with Berettas during Iraqi Freedom and the start of the insurgency was poor quality mags the government purchased from a third party maker. The springs were of poor quality and caused malfunctions galore.

Well and soldiers will always gripe about guns and "knockdown power". I have an article somewhere from the early 50's talking about how unpopular the 1911 was with troops. Any pistol wit FMJ rounds is going to suck compared to a long gun. Only the M2 carbine was hated more in Korea than the Colt.

 

[SuperDave456]

I got to play with one this past week that is very similar, but all black.
I was surprised that I saw one with the full rail and asked about it. I haven't played with a Beretta since I left the Air Force, and I have to say a new one has Much Less play to the slide and I could feel the better lockup than the one's that were made available to us.

A few 10,000 rounds will do that to any firearm.
But I found the difference shocking.

I'd like a couple.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Video link showing M9A3 firing

 

[Robenstein]

For years I think the Beretta USA guns were just not on the same level as the Italian ones in fit and finish.

 

[AMC]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Video link showing M9A3 firing


That reporter's shooting fundamentals were just awful! Completely wrong grip, slapping the trigger and letting his wrist snap up under recoil.

Neat video I guess but it pains me to watch people shoot like that.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Video link showing M9A3 firing


That is an atrocious grip...shoot like that with some guns and your thumb is going to get whacked with a slide or hammer. My old man never shot a pistol until about 10 years ago and held it wrong and got a bloody hand from it while shooting my Walther P1.

 

[Astro14]

He's got a few bad habits...like crossing that support hand thumb over his strong hand...I see slide "bite" in his future!

I like the Beretta. It's a well built, accurate pistol.

New pistol for the Army? It's going to be hard to justify the hundreds of millions in acquisition cost (total program cost). What does the grunt need? What's the requirement for a sidearm? What are the capability requirements that the Beretta lacks? It's a decent gun. Replacing worn out parts, buying new frames/pistols, is cheap compared to a completely new pistol.

The Army has asked for proposals. They've stated that they won't consider the Beretta. But that's a long way from a funded replacement program...