ATF+4 for Honda Z-1 service

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Auto-Union

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I've hinted about this in other threads, but want to get down to business on this issue. Would I be incorrect to recall ATF+4 as a synthetic FM ATF? How similar to Z1 in the spectrum of frictional properties?
I was thinking of a reference thread putting the various ATFs in order of least to most FMs.
Any further thoughts on ATF+4 in Z-1? I'm huntimg for more Valvoline ATF on clearance and want to use the ATF+4 I can find.
 
I see undummy just posted this:

"Dexron VI, Dexron III, Mercon, and MerconV are quite differently frictionally too. But, much interchangeability exists there. Feel free to post the shudder durability, frictional properties, clutch material compatibility...... on those 4 common ATFs!

BTW, I have several Toyotas running fully on ATF+4. But, there were older units that needed dexronIII. One has over 30k on the +4 and works perfectly and actually better(smoother shifts, better cold performance, less shift delay....). I've a couple newer units with single drain/refills with +4 in T-IV trannies. They work prefectly but are still mostly T-IV since a d/r only removes 1/3 the fluid. Within the next year or 2, I will have several up to 2/3's or more with ATF+4.
I do worry about seal, gasket, and adhesive compatability. But, I have NOT seen any non-OE fluid related issues. I do worry about transmission life but I haven't caused a failure be using a non-OE fluid. BTW, the trannies that I service ALWAYS last considerably longer in the real world then those stuck on OE fill and OE maintenance recommendations. Maybe my usage of 'different' ATF is better then OE fear tactics!

I will say that there is a pretty high interchangability in better spec'd ATFs, even if some characteristics aren't identical. If this wasn't so, then dozen or so universal/multivehicle ATFs made by every major and boutique oil companies, just wouldn't exist.
If this wasn't so, then major automakers couldn't backspec newer fluids for older specs, like Z1 for older Hondas, MerconV for older Fords, and DexronVI for older GMs.

Proprietary is just another word for silly secrective nothing special ATF forced on the consumer. Whatever happened to freedom of choice? Monopoly ATF anyone?"

I think this answers my question a bit. iirc, undummy has also said ATF+4 wouild be a good Universal fluid.

I'd still like some help with that chart of the friction coefficients.
 
I see that Castrol ATF+4 is a dollar more expensive than "Import Multi". Is that because of the licence fee, or is it a better product? I'm leaning toward ATF+4.
 
I'm with you. Still need some reference on the fictional properties, but am liking the idea.
 
I'm with you. Still need some reference on the fictional properties, but am liking the idea.
 
Hmm, I wonder if the Multi meets +4 at all. It would make a LOT of sense then, that +4 is an ideal upgrade.
 
We should re-post your message here for info purposes. I'd hope that ATF+4 would last a long time considering the basestock stipulations. I just can't bring myself to use Z-1.
 
you are talking about saving $10 on a trans fluid change. the time you spent researching this would have been better off spent working a job, buying the 3 quarts of z1 you need for a drain and refill and moving on to something else.
 
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MA,

There is more to it than just the money (or at least to me). Knowledge is good as well.

If you include my time, I don't make/save money growing a garden.
 
Originally Posted By: Master ACiD
you are talking about saving $10 on a trans fluid change. the time you spent researching this would have been better off spent working a job, buying the 3 quarts of z1 you need for a drain and refill and moving on to something else.


Thank you for that insightfull contribution, Captian Obvious. Now I am too poor for Z-1? afaik, ATF+4 costs about the same as Z1, and from the report forwarded to me, outlasts it 2:1.

ATF+4 is far away from Dex, which most people consider as equal quality to Z1. I think the informed posters here know where I am going with this.
 
Originally Posted By: artificialist
True, but the OP was also seeking a more durable fluid than Honda Z1.

While the base fluid may be more durable, the frictional properties of ATF+4 are very different than Z1's.

Originally Posted By: Auto-Union
ATF+4 is far away from Dex, which most people consider as equal quality to Z1. I think the informed posters here know where I am going with this.

You really can't compare ATF+4 to Dexron-VI. They are different fluids for different applications. They have different frictional properties. However if you want to compare the service life of the two, Dexron-VI is superior as far as I know.
 
You know that neither of those fluids compare well with DEXRON-VI and so does Auto-Union. I think that is what he is saying.
Correct me if I'm wrong Auto-Union.
 
Quote:

While the base fluid may be more durable, the frictional properties of ATF+4 are very different than Z1's.
Would you direct me to some references showing this? I have searched and have found only an old Amsoil advertising chart showing friction properties of many highly friction modified ATF's including ATF+3 and Z1 to be similar to each other and not like Dexron III.
Quote:
However if you want to compare the service life of the two, Dexron-VI is superior as far as I know.
Superior in what way?
 
Originally Posted By: thrace
Quote:

While the base fluid may be more durable, the frictional properties of ATF+4 are very different than Z1's.
Would you direct me to some references showing this? I have searched and have found only an old Amsoil advertising chart showing friction properties of many highly friction modified ATF's including ATF+3 and Z1 to be similar to each other and not like Dexron III.


Not the right person to ask for data.
Quote:
However if you want to compare the service life of the two, Dexron-VI is superior as far as I know.
Superior in what way? [/quote]
Durability. Remember that one is rated for lifetime fill, the other is not.
 
Quote:

While the base fluid may be more durable, the frictional properties of ATF+4 are very different than Z1's.
Quote:

Not the right person to ask for data.
Why did you make the statement to begin with? I like to believe posters as long as they have data and logic behind what they say.
 
Originally Posted By: thrace
Quote:

While the base fluid may be more durable, the frictional properties of ATF+4 are very different than Z1's.
Quote:

Not the right person to ask for data.
Why did you make the statement to begin with? I like to believe posters as long as they have data and logic behind what they say.

See PM.
 
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