Are the days of the 10k OCI over with?

[zerosoma]

Government, government, government is all anybody complains about these days.

Oil companies have to produce motor oil for the mass market. These days many engines are equipped with GDI and other technologies that limit the amount/types of additives to prevent detonation / LSPI. The oil companies know that the large volume sales/customers want to put the same oil in every car within reason. So you end up with a handful of oils that will cover all models. Capitalism at its finest, they just want to make a profit and can't do that or remain competitive if they make many different types of oils that people won't buy in volume.

If you happen to have an older vehicle with port injection or one that's fairly agnostic toward additives, there's a market for that-- boutique oils. They're still out there.

10K+ changes (and specs for extremely low viscosity) exist because a lot of car manufacturers realize that lubrication is not what ruins engines / cars. Cars are mostly disposable these days, people still have the money to get rid of them before problems happen and get into something new(er). It's the folks that buy these vehicles second or third hand and expect them to last to 15-20+ years old that get hosed. But that's not what manufacturers care about, especially during this transition to electric vehicles. All they want to do is sell and make a profit.

There's a lot to complain about, it's a ripe field with low hanging fruit in 2023.

There's nothing wrong with linearity in maintenance fluids. I think your anti-capitalism sentiment here is actually turned around - it'd be more lucrative if there WERE more specialty oils needed, as then you could charge a premium. All cars using 5w30 is pretty consumer-friendly to be honest and that's probably why they moved away from it moreso now.

I never buy a used car thinking I can get 15-20 years out of it. That's foolishness. That's why I buy them cheap and find the people who need to make room or are desperate to sell. A $5,000 Toyota or Honda product every 7-10 years isn't bad imo.

 

[4WD]

At the other end of the spectrum, there is Wwilson's extended OCI's with High Performance Lubricants. I think he has gone to at least 25K miles on more than once occasion and has provided some interesting data/UOA's.

I would like to see a teardown of Wwilson's engine at the end of it's life. It would be quite interesting to see what the inside of the engine looks like after a couple of hundred thousand miles. It is probably super clean inside?

It’s a port injection engine - 3/4 of mine are GDI …

 

[4WD]

Interesting take. Though Direct Injection has been a thing for a few decades now. If the problem is DI, would the reduced oil change intervals overall be due to the revelation of fuel dilution in DI engines now? As in, we're a bit more careful now that we know?

Huh ?

 

[Torrid]

The lubes are fine. The fuel dilution of the engine oil experienced by many direct injected engines is not.

This is precisely the problem. DI is hard on engine oil and long OCIs aren’t good for valve deposits.

 

[billt460]

I’ve always stick to 5k or less intervals. To me the days never began of a 10k interval. The first I ever heard of it was my first job at Toyota and we were told it was spec to get the cars out of warranty and also environmental stuff which we can’t talk about here. I would never run that long on oil in any car or oil brand. They can market whatever they want but that doesn’t mean it’s always right. I think oil technology is better than ever but not good enough to go to 10k for the reason you mentioned about environmental. And just because of problems I’ve seen with engines that we believe was caused by oil I choose to keep mine lower and recommend to my customers lower while still respecting opinions of others of course. I do believe my opinion is mostly right with working at Toyota and also knowing someone that works for the EPA to verify that part of the reason they are spec to 10k is for that stuff but I won’t touch anymore on that in respect of the rules here.

I agree completely. I would never go beyond 5K on any oil. I don't care what is printed on the bottle or jug. I never saw the logic of trusting a $40K+ vehicle to some lettering printed on the bottle, or box the oil filter came in.

It just never made any sense to me. Why push it? And what's the big reward if you do? Driving around with dirty oil, that you saved $25 bucks on by not changing it? When it takes over twice as much just to fill the gas tank. Oil changes are about the cheapest and best protection that you can give a vehicle on a regular basis.

And I totally agree that A LOT of this longer, extended OCI business is being pushed for environmental reasons. The same way CAFE is pushing ultra thin motor oils down the public's throat.... Not because the oils today are all of a sudden so great.

 

[cptbarkey]

If only the various lab companies would open source their uoa databases, but until then we will continue to guess. Someone could scrape and ocr what already exists but it would probably still be a drop in the sample bucket. Pun intended.

 

[billt460]

.... Cars are mostly disposable these days, people still have the money to get rid of them before problems happen and get into something new(er).....

People get rid of them because they like to buy new cars with other people's money. If that were not the case, and people actually had money, we wouldn't be going to 8+ year car loans. People in general are far less financially liquid these days, than at any time in history.

Which is all the more reason they should be hanging on to their vehicles, and taking care of them longer.... Not trading them in every 15 minutes. Besides, people aren't getting rid of them as fast as you think.

Today the average length of time a person hangs on to a new vehicle is 8.4 years. And that is taking into account people who drive in the road salted rust belt. Which no doubt helps to drop that average considerably.

 

[WobblyElvis]

If I drive more long trips during the summer I still do a 10K OCI but the last couple of years I haven't travelled much. Short trips and cold temps in the winter shorten the interval to 4,000 miles sometimes. OCI's over 5K [sometimes over 10K] have never cause any problems for me. I don't think DI is a problem with warm weather and longer trips.

 

[Rand]

Interesting take. Though Direct Injection has been a thing for a few decades now. If the problem is DI, would the reduced oil change intervals overall be due to the revelation of fuel dilution in DI engines now? As in, we're a bit more careful now that we know?

Mass adoption of Direct injection.

subaru started with their FA20DIT and that was in mid teens (year)
The forester FB25 didnt get direct injection until 2019.
The 2020 elantra has a 2.0 port injection.

The pentastar still is port injection as is the hemi.

Direct injection wasnt as common pre-2011.
Not as much was known about it and how hard it is on engine oil.

Now we also have engines that have both types on injection etc.

 

[buster]

From VOAs and UOAs it appears most (not all) products are coming in significantly weaker both in formulation and performance than in years' past, not due to choice, but due to necessity.

I think you're equating low metallic additives as weaker. I don't think that is the case. Oils have become better. When those additives are removed or lowered in quantity, others are added in their place. It's not as if they remove things and just let it go... I think it's a combination of things. 10k and beyond is certainly doable in many engines backed up by oil analysis. There are lot more GDI turbo engines on the market now too.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I'm sure I'll get some snarky replies from some self-proclaimed experts (in b4) but I've been thinking lately.

I really wonder if we've reached a state of decline (dystopia?) in our commercial lubricants, where brands are no longer proudly formulating the best product for the consumer but rather, like everything else, focusing their efforts on pleasing the man in charge (government). From VOAs and UOAs it appears most (not all) products are coming in significantly weaker both in formulation and performance than in years' past, not due to choice, but due to necessity. When the environmentalists (and car manufacturers by proxy) are screaming for less emissions, you can only bend over so far before you're bottling coconut oil and telling people to reduce their OCIs.

Having joined Bob a decade or so ago, I remember the gold standard was pretty much a 10k change for synthetics, though some pushed it further, and OCD folks would not push as far. These days I'm not seeing nearly as many lengthy intervals, and one has to wonder, with these reduced service intervals due to (imo silly, and increasingly tight) environmental regulations, are we really doing the environment any good?

-J

In a word. NO. Every Euro and Domestic has been on a 10k mile OCI since you've joined BITOG. I don't know about Asian makes but I'm not sure what you man by "I'm not seeing nearly as many lengthily intervals". Perhaps people aren't driving as much so they bump up to the 1yr mark. I know I haven't gone 10k miles OCI since COVID so I change every year.

Lubricants have only become better. For example API SP oils do a better job of reducing timing chain wear than SN(+), SM etc. API SP and SN+ protect against LSPI which cannot be said for SN on or older.

Additive composition has changed but that's in part due to the introduction of ULSG/ULSD.

 

[TiGeo]

10k intervals on port-injected naturally-aspirated engines is quite different than small turbo and/or direct-injection vehicles with more fuel dilution. I ran my '00 Jetta out to 220K mi/14 years on a whole lot of 10K M1 0W40 OCIs. I wouldn't run my vehicles now out that far.

 

[Zee09]

10k intervals on port-injected naturally-aspirated engines is quite different than small turbo and/or direct-injection vehicles with more fuel dilution. I ran my '00 Jetta out to 220K mi/14 years on a whole lot of 10K M1 0W40 OCIs. I wouldn't run my vehicles now out that far.

Yup

 

[CheezWhiz]

I have a 2016 2500hd with a 6.0 vortec and probably could get away with extended OCI's, I mostly just daily drive it so the usage is far less demanding than the truck is designed for. But it never struck me as all that expensive or inconvenient to just crawl under the truck and change the oil, so i just go by the OLM.

Could i really start doing 20k intervals with that 20k supertech stuff? Would i just pull a sample every third OCI or so? You start talking 20k instead of 10k miles and it starts to make sense i guess.

 

[853okg]

Government, government, government is all anybody complains about these days.

Oil companies have to produce motor oil for the mass market. These days many engines are equipped with GDI and other technologies that limit the amount/types of additives to prevent detonation / LSPI. The oil companies know that the large volume sales/customers want to put the same oil in every car within reason. So you end up with a handful of oils that will cover all models. Capitalism at its finest, they just want to make a profit and can't do that or remain competitive if they make many different types of oils that people won't buy in volume.

If you happen to have an older vehicle with port injection or one that's fairly agnostic toward additives, there's a market for that-- boutique oils. They're still out there.

10K+ changes (and specs for extremely low viscosity) exist because a lot of car manufacturers realize that lubrication is not what ruins engines / cars. Cars are mostly disposable these days, people still have the money to get rid of them before problems happen and get into something new(er). It's the folks that buy these vehicles second or third hand and expect them to last to 15-20+ years old that get hosed. But that's not what manufacturers care about, especially during this transition to electric vehicles. All they want to do is sell and make a profit.

No offense intended, but your premise is 100 percent wrong. You say, disparagingly, “capitalism at its finest “ insinuating that capitalism and a wide variety of choices are somehow mutually exclusive. Wrong. It’s the free markets that provide myriad choices. Free markets allow the consumer to choose which brands win. Everyone complains about the government because they insist on choosing for you. Consumers have seen everything from gasoline to dishwashing detergent to lighter fluid becoming demonstrably worse and are naturally suspicious. Capitalism gives you choices, it doesn’t limit them. State run nations aren’t known for wide variety because they don’t have to offer choice. The government picks the winners. And when the government picks the winner you get Pemex and Ma Bell.

 

[Danh]

Guess I disagree with the contention that modern oils have weaker add packs. It’s true that lower levels of calcium are present to prevent LSPI but this is offset by increasing magnesium, and this replacement doesn’t have to be on a one-for-one basis. And, as others have said many times, what a $25 UOA/VOA shows does not begin to identify all the add pack elements in an oil. Neither will a PDS or MSDS a from the manufacturer.

With the abundance of full synthetics and increasingly stringent OEM requirements like SP, I’d wager off the shelf oils have never been better.

 

[oil pan 4]

The lubes are fine. The fuel dilution of the engine oil experienced by many direct injected engines is not.

And it seems like the oil filters can't take 10,000miles reliably. All it takes is one crushed to the point of causing a torn oil filter and it's over.

 

[CarbonSteel]

And if you are worried about TBN it really holds no ground today it is an outdated test.

Curious how you would measure the health of the oil without TBN or TAN (depending on the oil type)?

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Interesting take. Though Direct Injection has been a thing for a few decades now. If the problem is DI, would the reduced oil change intervals overall be due to the revelation of fuel dilution in DI engines now? As in, we're a bit more careful now that we know?

In port injection, where my wife had a long commute I pushed her OCI to 9K from 6k

I might argue Best UOA's on a Subaru I have ever seen posted here.

D.I. "everywhere" is relatively new, I think I first saw it on a co-workers Colorado V6 in 2015. I asked him why the trucks tail pipe was sooty coal black! That gave me pause.

This 5K mil OCi number is so random an likely way too early for those putting over 20k miles on a commuter vehicle a year.

5K Easy to remember? No excuse. Program a service in your DIC, put a Next service sticker on the windscreen.

Here is my OCI since I retired and no longer commute::

Early Spring / Late Fall.

With 5.5 K miles per year, I could do just late fall but I want to run 10W30 spring thru fall

 

[4WD]

Mass adoption of Direct injection.

subaru started with their FA20DIT and that was in mid teens (year)
The forester FB25 didnt get direct injection until 2019.
The 2020 elantra has a 2.0 port injection.

The pentastar still is port injection as is the hemi.

Direct injection wasnt as common pre-2011.
Not as much was known about it and how hard it is on engine oil.

Now we also have engines that have both types on injection etc.

Yeah - my first was a 2015 3.5L eB … now 3/4 of them …