Anyone in here have a bike that still has carbs?

#1, it was common enough in the 1980s that GM specifically stated in their owner's manuals (and issued a TSB) allowing it's use..

#2, the OP's bike is 1998 model and I can assure you that ethanol gas was used back then to comply with the oxygenated fuel mandate in non-attainment areas, particularly in the midwest region of the USA (Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, those "corn belt" states). EDIT: And some of these states seemed to have laws "encouraging" the use of Ethanol instead of MTBE, prior to the MTBE ban....

My original point is that ethanol fuel has been available for at least 40 years. It would be reasonable to expect a 1998 model bike to be able to run on 10% ethanol fuel and for that to not cause damage to the fuel system.

Hell, I would expect it of a 1988 model bike.

One thing I would also expect is that today's ethanol gas is better than what we had 40 years ago. Technology marches on, and gasoline is no exception.

Referencing manuals instead of actual people who were alive and driving in the 1980s is a strategy that tells me you were either not there or too young to remember. I owned 1980s GM vehicles, I read the manuals (because there was no Internet in those days and life was boring in small town Oregon) and I distinctly remember there were references to Gasohol fuels in the manual. That does not mean actual pump regular unleaded contained ethanol. The pumps containing Gasohol were clearly labeled and you had to make a conscious decision to dispense it in your tank. I knew people who used it constantly and liked it, but most people were afraid of it.

When oil prices crashed in 1986, gasohol started disappearing and by the 90s I never saw it anymore.

In actual inflation adjusted terms, gasoline in 1979/1980 was the most expensive it had ever been, before or since. The idea of gasohol caught on because it was cheaper and also produced less smog, which was a BIG issue in those days for some cities. It was NOT used as an anti-knock additive, MTBE was widely used and the pumps were labeled as containing it.
 
Referencing manuals instead of actual people who were alive and driving in the 1980s is a strategy that tells me you were either not there or too young to remember. I owned 1980s GM vehicles, I read the manuals (because there was no Internet in those days and life was boring in small town Oregon) and I distinctly remember there were references to Gasohol fuels in the manual. That does not mean actual pump regular unleaded contained ethanol. The pumps containing Gasohol were clearly labeled and you had to make a conscious decision to dispense it in your tank. I knew people who used it constantly and liked it, but most people were afraid of it.

When oil prices crashed in 1986, gasohol started disappearing and by the 90s I never saw it anymore.

In actual inflation adjusted terms, gasoline in 1979/1980 was the most expensive it had ever been, before or since. The idea of gasohol caught on because it was cheaper and also produced less smog, which was a BIG issue in those days for some cities. It was NOT used as an anti-knock additive, MTBE was widely used and the pumps were labeled as containing it.

This entirely contradicts the research papers I found and posted in this thread.

Also, you were in Oregon.

That isn't a state known for growing corn....

Do you suppose that other states which grew (and grow) significant amounts of corn (from which ethanol is derived) may have had legislation that supported or even mandated the use of ethanol in gasoline?

(Hint: Yes, they did, and do).

(This was seen by politicians in corn-growing states as a way to get the votes from, err, I mean, support corn farmers..)

So you can't really generalize what happened in boring small town Oregon to what happened in other states because of differing laws and regulations, and different groups present in the state for various politicians to pander to.
 
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The idea of gasohol caught on because it was cheaper and also produced less smog, which was a BIG issue in those days for some cities. It was NOT used as an anti-knock additive, MTBE was widely used and the pumps were labeled as containing it.

By the way, MTBE is an oxygenate just like ethanol and was used to reduce smog just like ethanol.

Oxygenates like MTBE and ethanol both reduce smog AND are anti-knock additives.

Once upon a time in this part of Virginia, prior to the MTBE ban, MTBE, *not* ethanol, was added to gasoline to reduce smog. (Virginia is a state that doesn't grow much corn..)

Also, ethanol CANNOT be blended with gasoline and sent via pipeline, it has to be added at the fuel tank farm, so it stands to reason that (prior to the MTBE ban) states without large corn agribusiness (like Virginia and presumably Oregon) would prefer to use MTBE (which can be blended and sent via pipeline) instead of ethanol. Additionally, politicians in Virginia and Oregon don't need the votes of Iowa corn farmers.
 
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When oil prices crashed in 1986, gasohol started disappearing and by the 90s I never saw it anymore.

Here is some legislation that became effective in Illinois (one of the largest corn growing states in the USA) on September 1, 1985. This legislation reduced the state tax on "gasohol":

Gasohol will be redefined as "motor fuel which is no more than 90% gasoline and at least 10% denatured ethanol which contains no more than 1.25% water by weight and is obtained from cereal grains or food processed by-products essentially derived from cereal grain." Gasohol will qualify for the lower state tax rate if the denatured ethanol is made from corn, wheat, barley, etc. Ethanol made from coal, wood, sugar cane, and other non-cereal products will not qualify. Gasohol that does not qualify for a reduced sales tax rate is subject to the full 5% state sales tax.

Reference:

 
For what it is worth I add the blue marine Stabil to every tank of gas in motorcycles, outboards, and my snowblower. Never drain in the off season and they all start right up just as good as new. I have a 2006 Ninja 500 (with carbs) that has been kept this way since new, and usually not run for about 6 months each winter here in New England. The snowblower sits for longer and starts right up when I need it for the first snowfall, though I usually start it once a month or so over the winter just to be sure.
 
My 96 Sportster , I run highest octane and it sat for months on end, no stabil, carbs never got gumed up, but I ran a lot of marvel and seafoam thru it lately due to dieseiling when the engine was shut off..now Im good to go,,,lol

If it aint got chrome, dont ride it home....................no black painted engines for me,,its just me,I guess Harley knows best.................hmmm maybe.
 
My 96 Sportster , I run highest octane and it sat for months on end, no stabil, carbs never got gumed up, but I ran a lot of marvel and seafoam thru it lately due to dieseiling when the engine was shut off..now Im good to go,,,lol

If it aint got chrome, dont ride it home....................no black painted engines for me,,its just me,I guess Harley knows best.................hmmm maybe.
An older saying was "if it won't go chrome it". If you like it ride it.
Smoky
 
I have a '98 Honda Super Hawk that has carbs, and I've been told to make sure the carbs are dry when in storage, as today's gas with ethanol is supposed to be bad on them. I've always stored my bikes over the winter with Sta-Bil in the fuel systems without problems, but these were all fuel injected bikes. A local mechanic of over 30 years (he claims) told me loves when people leave gas in their bike's carbs because it brings his shop a lot of business rebuilding carbs. How do you store yours?
Can you plumb in a shut-off valve? I've been told things with carbs like lawnmowers etc can benefit from that.
 
Ethanol is just a boogie man IMO. Carbs used to gum up in storage since the invention of the carb. This forum if full of "older" members, but somehow most suffer from amnesia when it comes to discussing the good old days.

Gasoline is made out of a blend of various aromatic compounds. These compounds evaporate at different rates and temperatures. The lightest and most volatile go first, then the second lightest and so on. This process leaves the heaviest compounds behind and they leave a heavy residue behind. Sort of like spilling soda and letting it dry, which will leave the diluted sugar behind and create a sticky mess.
It's pretty much the same process with gasoline, ethanol has nothing to do with it.
 
This process leaves the heaviest compounds behind and they leave a heavy residue behind. Sort of like spilling soda and letting it dry, which will leave the diluted sugar behind and create a sticky mess.
It's pretty much the same process with gasoline, ethanol has nothing to do with it.
Yes, we had problems with carbs gumming up "back in the day" before ethanol in fuel. When ethanol first showed up it created lots of problems with engines that didn't have seals and such that could resist the ethanol. I opened up a bunch of outboard carbs that had disintegrated O-rings and the passages would often be plugged with bits of rubber and other gunk. Pretty quickly manufacturers replaced those parts with ones that could withstand the ethanol, but the problem remained that when you mix ethanol and water you get green gundge that messes up carbs. If you could keep the water out you would usually be OK, but fuel stabilizer helps a lot even during the season when you are using the machine regularly. I found this explanation from Berryman pretty good even though I have never used the product.:

What is Fuel Stabilizer?

Fuel stabilizer, such as Berryman Total Fuel Stabilizer, is a solution that provides a protective layer for the fuel sitting in a gas tank. Typically made from petroleum products, fuel stabilizer bonds with gasoline to prevent evaporation. In doing so, it also prevents fuel from forming sticky resins that can quickly ruin a carburetor.

On a chemical level, stabilizer is just a mixture of antioxidants and lubricants designed to repel water and limit evaporation.
I use blue marine Stabil in every load of gas that is likely to sit for a few weeks, meaning my motorcycle, outboards, snowblower, etc. I just finished a winter load of fuel in my snowblower that was two years old, treated from the get-go with Stabil. Two years is stretching things, but there were no perceptible problems this past winter.
 
It's funny that someone brought this thread back from the dead. Last fall I installed manual cam chain tensioners. The ones from the factory were self adjusting, but they were also failure prone. When they failed, the cam chain would jump teeth and destroy the engine (interference). When reinstalling the air box, which has enough lines and tubes hooked to it to look like a bowl of spaghetti, I had a vacuum line hooked up in the wrong spot, or not hooked up at all, so it hadn't been running since last September. After a long wait (thankfully most of it was during winter), I was finally able to get a mechanic to work on it. I just got it back Wednesday. He had it running in 5 minutes, he knew exactly which line I had hooked up incorrectly. He also fixed a sticky throttle, and he mounted a new front tire. Bike runs and rides beautifully. Runs like a raped ape!
 
Yes, we had problems with carbs gumming up "back in the day" before ethanol in fuel. When ethanol first showed up it created lots of problems with engines that didn't have seals and such that could resist the ethanol. I opened up a bunch of outboard carbs that had disintegrated O-rings and the passages would often be plugged with bits of rubber and other gunk. Pretty quickly manufacturers replaced those parts with ones that could withstand the ethanol, but the problem remained that when you mix ethanol and water you get green gundge that messes up carbs. If you could keep the water out you would usually be OK, but fuel stabilizer helps a lot even during the season when you are using the machine regularly. I found this explanation from Berryman pretty good even though I have never used the product.:


I use blue marine Stabil in every load of gas that is likely to sit for a few weeks, meaning my motorcycle, outboards, snowblower, etc. I just finished a winter load of fuel in my snowblower that was two years old, treated from the get-go with Stabil. Two years is stretching things, but there were no perceptible problems this past winter.
True, seals and gaskets were not ready for ethanol, but that was what, almost 30 years ago? Yet here were are with people still blaming ethanol for their lack of basic storage knowledge, which is found in the owners manual. Mechanics just play the blame game too. And why not? They get to charge quite nicely every season to bring bikes back to operation.
 
True, seals and gaskets were not ready for ethanol, but that was what, almost 30 years ago? Yet here were are with people still blaming ethanol for their lack of basic storage knowledge, which is found in the owners manual. Mechanics just play the blame game too. And why not? They get to charge quite nicely every season to bring bikes back to operation.
Yes, there is definitely a market created by people not taking care of, or improperly caring for their vehicles...
 
Yes, there is definitely a market created by people not taking care of, or improperly caring for their vehicles...
I suspect it is pretty common to get some water in a fillup of gasoline, and that will wreak havoc on ethanol fuel. A gasoline station I walked by regularly was located near a harbor, and I watched the process of them replacing their tanks. The ground level there is just barely above sea level and the holes they put the tanks in were almost completely full of water requiring constant pumping for the install. How often have you observed a gas station parking lot under water after heavy rain? Sure, there are seals and filters and stuff to keep the water out, but nothing is perfect and once in awhile we pay the price. I have multiple times experienced sudden engine performance issues that popped up after a fill up and then went away after I kept diluting whatever crap was in there with constant fillups. Probably not ideal for the motor, but I drive old cars anyway! In any case, ethanol gas is more prone to these problems.
 
but the problem remained that when you mix ethanol and water you get green gundge that messes up carbs. If you could keep the water out you would usually be OK
One more thought on water in fuel.
It's hard to keep water out as it is usually present straight from the gas station. I would actually wager that ethanol helps in this regard. Because it absorbs water and helps it blend with gas instead of separating. Sort of like oils emulsify water and prevent separation.

Personally I think it's much easier to deal with the green sludge caused by ethanol than deal with corroded internals, especially on carbs, when water separates from gas during storage. Adding oil to fuel also helps with water separation.
 
One more thought on water in fuel.
It's hard to keep water out as it is usually present straight from the gas station. I would actually wager that ethanol helps in this regard. Because it absorbs water and helps it blend with gas instead of separating. Sort of like oils emulsify water and prevent separation.

Personally I think it's much easier to deal with the green sludge caused by ethanol than deal with corroded internals, especially on carbs, when water separates from gas during storage.
With ethanol fuel phase separation becomes a big problem: https://petroclear.com/resources/dont-be-phased.php
One of the main concerns in the supply process as the use of ethanol continues to climb is the potential for what is called "phase separation" in gasoline that contains ethanol. Phase separation occurs when enough water contaminates the gasoline, causing the ethanol to attach itself to the water molecules, leaving two distinct layers in the storage tank, a gasoline-only layer at the top and an ethanol/water "cocktail" along the bottom (see Figure 2).
 
With ethanol fuel phase separation becomes a big problem: https://petroclear.com/resources/dont-be-phased.php
OK, and without ethanol you have gasoline only layer on top and water only layer on the bottom. This isn't anything new, but that article sure makes it sound like it is caused by ethanol.
Is all of this stuff new to people?

And from that same article. Looks like I was correct, ethanol does help blend the water. I guess it's a double edged sword because more water will separate when sitting. Which again, for storage, if one drains the carbs it will be a non issue. This should be done regardless of ethanol presence.
As noted on Chevron's Web site, while conventional gasoline can dissolve up to 150 parts per million of water at 70°F, the situation is different for gasoline oxygenated with 10% ethanol. This 90% gasoline/10% ethanol blend can dissolve up to 7,000 ppm of water at 70°F.
 
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Obviously, water in the fuel is not a good thing, and since ethanol fuel can dissolve more water it helps to get rid of the water by allowing your car to burn it off. Just like we used to add dry gas to our tanks of gasoline back in the day. I have found no need for dry gas (ethanol) during the winter since all the gas I can buy already is 10% ethanol. But, if that same load of fuel sits for long enough you may get phase separation due to all the water absorbed by the ethanol, and that's one thing stabilizers can help with. You also get corrosion from water in the fuel, and stabilizers help with that. Practical Sailor has published some interesting testing on fuel stabilizers for marine use. https://www.practical-sailor.com/systems-propulsion/gasoline-additives-in-the-e-15-era

Because all of our research and all of our testing (see PS November 2015) suggest that the primary cause of gasoline instability, including gum formation, is metal ions resulting from corrosion of metals. We have also seen that corrosion products are the most common cause of clogging, and that these deposits are harder to remove because solvent carb cleaners can’t dissolve them.
 
Yes, problem is that people don't treat their fuel at all for storage, and then are surprised they have problems.

I prefer oil for treating fuel. There is nothing special about fuel stabilizers. I rather use a two stroke oil, MMO etc. that will also help with lubing the top end and the carburetors than some overpriced product that is likely mostly naphtha anyways.
 
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