Any Actual FRAM failures?

[Brian Barnhart]

quote:

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Brian Barnhart, you mention that oil filters must pass an SAE test. Are these test results available to the public? Is there some place we can go (perhaps to some SAE web page) that will actually give us the results of testing so that we could actually compare oil filters?

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Perhaps I wasn't clear in my post. Many manufacturers publish filter results based on SAE tests (single pass efficiency for example). I don't believe I stated that oil filters must "pass" these tests. In fact, I suspect few, if any, of the SAE tests are pass/fail. I do have a copy of SAE HS-806, but have not read it all. It's 40+ pages and is not exactly entertaining reading.

Like yourself, I don't know of a good source/web page showing a comparison oil filter test data on filters from different manufacturers. (Though I do remember seeing an Amsoil comparison chart of several oil filters. Give you one guess who's filter was "best").

quote:

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How can Fram "meet or exceed" OEM requirements for some their oil filters, in particular for the Motorcraft 820S, if they have leaky adbv that causes start-up noise.

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I based my statement about most over-the-counter filters (including Fram) meeting OEM requirements for replacement filters on the general statement printed on filter boxes. It usually reads something to the effect that the filter meets or exceeds warranty requirements of the car manufacturer. I doubt Fram or any other large manufacturer would risk printing this on their filter box if it weren't true.

I'm not questioning the belief that there are better choices than Fram oil filters for certain vehicles.

 

[Mystic]

Perhaps Honeywell needs to take a good look at the FRAM division and if they find problems, make the necessary changes.

Right now FRAM is probably 70% of the market. If you want to keep the market share, you must have continued quality.

 

[Propflux01]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mystic:
Perhaps Honeywell needs to take a good look at the FRAM division and if they find problems, make the necessary changes.

Right now FRAM is probably 70% of the market. If you want to keep the market share, you must have continued quality.

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You have answered your own question.....why take a look, when 70% of market share is yours, and the only complainers are from a forum or two's worth of people....

 

[tom slick]

quote:

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As was pointed out, Allied signal (not honeywell) is the owner of fram. It is a large corp. It can build a Wix-like filter for less than Wix can if it wanted to. Instead they choose to build a filter inferior in every aspect to champion labs (perhaps the low cost leader) and charge appx OEM prices, simply by capitalizing on the trademark orange color of Felpro - another allied signal company - that does NOT cut corners. Marketing 101. When you buy a 'Fram' filter you are not buying something from a division of felpro. How many times do religious Fram users have to be shown that the true OEM filters (like AC delco for instance) perform better, yet cost LESS - short of beating people on the head with cases of them? Marketing 101. By the time you get into a $10-15 Fram filter that does perform well, you cross the territory of a Wix or Baldwin filter. And pay more to boot. Im really not seeing the logic here....

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that was the exact point i was goint to bring up. fram charges a premium price for a filter that they have figured out how to make cheaper in every single way possible. why support a company that you know builds the cheapest product for not cheap price. their filters might work just fine, but i won't install them on any of my vehicles.

 

[Mystic]

Tim H., if I was the CEO of Honeywell, I would take a look at every division. You stay on top by producing quality stuff.

I don't know if FRAM is better than, equal to, or less than the other oil filters available. I do have my own opinions after personal experience and after seeing photographs of the insides of a FRAM oil filter as compared to other oil filters.

Let us assume for a minute that FRAM is down on quality. There are over a thousand people, I believe, that come to this web site. And they probably have dozens of people that each one of them know. And some of the people who come to this site work for oil companies, are representatives for companies, etc. And this is not the only web site. The Oil Filter Study probably had an influence on a lot of people. All it takes is that little seed of doubt to spread.

And if FRAM really is terrible went it comes to quality, eventually it will catch up to them. There will be failures of filters on vehicles (some people at this site say that they have already witnessed failures). Word will get around.

Now, I am not saying that FRAM is poor in quality. I don't know. I am not an expert on oil filters. But I do believe that the way to maintain market share, is to produce a quality item. If you produce junk, and word gets around that the stuff you make is junk, you will probably eventually be finished in the market place.

 

[kev99sl]

When I built my computer, I bought the cheapest case and power supply I could find. The computer ran a year without a problem. Then I read an article that someone wrote about computer power supplies: how cheap ones were made with much cheaper materials than more sturdy ones; the kinds of trouble you could get into if your power supply fails; and so on. So I went out, and bought a new power supply.

What does this have to do with Fram? If you don't mind having an oil filter that is made from cheaper materials than those of filters readily available, go ahead. How often is engine failure EVER linked to the use of bad oil filters? Not often. I'll bet if you plugged up the spin-on outlet and just ran without a full-flow filter, you'd get a good run out of your engine, assuming you changed the oil regularly. Does that mean that everyone should do that? No -- some people just want the peace of mind that they've got that extra margin of protection. I ran that cheap, Chinese power supply for a year without a problem, but I thought my computer deserved better, that's all. My car deserves better than cardboard end caps and cheap filtering media -- that's all. It doesn't mean I couldn't drive 150,000 + miles with a Fram, it just means I think I can do better.

 

[Ray H]

Ah, the power of advertising... Spread a little F.U.D. about the best selling competition, and the world will beat a path to your door, instead. Not. By the way, I've got one of those "cheap Chinese" power suplies on my computer, too. (Were these actually assembled by pathologically penurious Chinese workers?) It's in its seventh year having outlasted three prior motherboard upgrades. I don't know whether Fram filters are crap or underrated, either. But if they're as bad as some insist due to their construction and materials, why, oh, why do they continue to dominate the American market? Even among the truly clueless, the word would certainly have gotten out by now if they're really as bad as the naysayers (quoting anecdotal evidence and little else) insist, wouldn't it? In any event, I'll continue using my stock of K-mart closeout WIX-made "Castrol MaxPro" oil filters - which ring rather hollow when I thump the end of my fingernail against the case...

[ July 08, 2003, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[pscholte]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:
I don't know whether Fram filters are crap or underrated, either. But if they're as bad as some insist due to their construction and materials, why, oh, why do they continue to dominate the American market? Even among the truly clueless, the word would certainly have gotten out by now if they're really as bad as the naysayers (quoting anecdotal evidence and little else) insist, wouldn't it?

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Ray, It has been mentioned before in this thread or maybe in Bob's pressure differential test thread. If the Frams just happen to be in bypass a lot and not doing their filtering job, how would the "truly clueless" KNOW? Even if their engines last long enough to keep them happy, they are still not getting the service they are paying for. I don't know the answer to this either, but if guys and gals like us who care about this stuff can say that, what will the "truly clueless" ever know?

 

[QuadDriver]

quote:

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Originally posted by pscholte:
I think the thing that concerns be about Fram most of all is the possibility, which seemed to get a lot of attention on Bob's oil filter test thread, that Frams might go into bypass mode too readily and that what seems like reasonable flow through the filter media is not actually flow THROUGH the filter media.

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In bobs test, the oil was cold. EVERY filter was in bypass mode. the fact that fram dropped the less PSI in bypass only shows that its seal is the weakest. I have read elsewhere that it goes into bypass at 12-18 psi differential. Note: this is not the same as 12-18psi input, but rather the difference after what can go thru the media, does in fact go thru the media.

 

[kev99sl]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:
Ah, the power of advertising... Spread a little F.U.D. about the best selling competition, and the world will beat a path to your door, instead. Not. By the way, I've got one of those "cheap Chinese" power suplies on my computer, too. (Were these actually assembled by pathologically penurious Chinese workers?) It's in its seventh year having outlasted three prior motherboard upgrades. I don't know whether Fram filters are crap or underrated, either. But if they're as bad as some insist due to their construction and materials, why, oh, why do they continue to dominate the American market? Even among the truly clueless, the word would certainly have gotten out by now if they're really as bad as the naysayers (quoting anecdotal evidence and little else) insist, wouldn't it? In any event, I'll continue using my stock of K-mart closeout WIX-made "Castrol MaxPro" oil filters - which ring rather hollow when I thump the end of my fingernail against the case...

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My point -- and I thought it was a simple and clear one -- is that we're talking about a line that exists somewhere between opinion and fact, and scientific method aside, it isn't just one or the other. Has that Chinese power supply in your computer lasted seven years without a problem? Yes. Are there better power supplies to be had? Yes. Now where you and I draw the line between perceived and actual value is different. If I, supposing that sturdier construction provides superior value, less of a risk to me and my equipment, and greater peace of mind, find that I can buy such a power supply at the *same price* as the Chinese option, how is this playing into someone's marketing scheme? I don't get it.

A Fram costs a couple bucks, an AC Delco costs about the same; I cut open a Fram and see cardboard, I cut open an AC Delco and see metal. How am I being scammed here? How am I being worked by the corporate powers that be (as if Fram isn't one of those corporate powers, doing their best to maximize profitability ala the Chinese power supply makers with their lower-cost materials)? The great unknown, of course, is failure rate: I can't prove that Chinese power supplies at any greater rate than non-Chinese; I can't prove that Frams damage engines and other filters don't. My priority as a consumer is to make an informed decision about the quality of the product I'm buying, even if that decision is based on an informed *opinion.* In my opinion, I don't want to take chances with a power supply (or oil filter!) made with one set of materials to one set of standards, when I can have the same product made of higher-quality base materials for at or near the same price.

And don't even get me started on how market dominance can often have precious little to do with actual value/quality. For one thing, who is to say that Fram is not now experiencing a turning of the tide in regard to losing the sweet spot they've held because of say, name recognition, or established contracts with quick-lube places? Fram = high quality, dependable; word spreads, contracts grow; years go by, and the market accepts the name and concept as mom, apple pie and the U.S. of A.; then quality begins to slip; word spreads; market starts to slip away. It isn't an on or off proposition: a product isn't excellent and accepted one day, and then simply abandoned the next. The product continues to sell simply because it has momentum, but who is to say we're not just in the beginning of a market re-evaluating and beginning to reject that commonplace item?

[ July 08, 2003, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: kev99sl ]

 

[QuadDriver]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:
Ah, the power of advertising... Spread a little F.U.D. about the best selling competition, and the world will beat a path to your door, instead. Not. By the way, I've got one of those "cheap Chinese" power suplies on my computer, too. (Were these actually assembled by pathologically penurious Chinese workers?) It's in its seventh year having outlasted three prior motherboard upgrades. I don't know whether Fram filters are crap or underrated, either. But if they're as bad as some insist due to their construction and materials, why, oh, why do they continue to dominate the American market? Even among the truly clueless, the word would certainly have gotten out by now if they're really as bad as the naysayers (quoting anecdotal evidence and little else) insist, wouldn't it? In any event, I'll continue using my stock of K-mart closeout WIX-made "Castrol MaxPro" oil filters - which ring rather hollow when I thump the end of my fingernail against the case...

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I dispute the claim that fram has 70% of anything, let alone the us market. But you can take heart in this: no shop or mechanic will install a fram filter, except for drive by oil change places like walmart (and the funny thing about walmart is, for less money u get the 'supertech oil change' which uses a champion filter and Quaker State oil). Aside from the OEMS (I dont understand where one poster calimed OEMs were not avail, I can lay my hand on AC delco and Motorcraft in 5 mins, and that makes up for a shade over 50% of the US market) baldwin probably has the lions share of the professional market and by far the largest product coverage. Or put it this way, since 95% of you are DIYers, ask your mechanic what is on *his* car. I note that no racers or mechanics are waving their hands in the air going 'ooo oooo I use fram!!!'

As I said before, where there is smoke, there is fire. The originator of the thread asked to see first hand accounts of failures. He got em. Yet not ONE SINGLE other filter is mentioned in any failure. So its kinda moot if fram fails one filter per million, if the other guy fails 0 per million.....well the choice is clear. And again, the OEM filters are better and more efficient and cost less, yet no one has satisfactorily explained why they would even dream of changing brands, OR, do I assume that we have run into a nest of those 'racers' who are buying up 'Type-R' sTiCkErZ? Meaning you fell for the product hype, in which case I must ask, did the 'magnetic fuel saver' do anything for you? How about the 'tornado' wind conditioner?

 

[JohnBrowning]

KTCOM, This TSB was published by Daimler Chrysler along with Cummins. It is the first hit that pops up on google when I type in Fram TSB. You might want to read it. This is proof!!Date: May 18, 2001

Models: 1989 -1993 (AD), 1994 - 2001 (BR/BE) Ram Truck

NOTE: THIS BULLETIN INVOLVES 1989 - 201 MY 2500 AND 3500 RAM TRUCKS EQUIPPED WITH A 5.9L CUMMINS DIESEL ENGINE.

Discussion:

Customer may complain of high oil consumption, grey oil smoke coming out of the exhaust or breather tube, or mechanical knocking. Neoprene compounds used internally in the manufacture of oil filters not recommended by DaimlerChrysler may separate from the filter, lodge in the piston cooling nozzle, and can fail the engine.

NOTE: THIS IS NOT AN ENGINE DEFECT.

(See the table below for a list of filters recommended by DaimlerChrysler for use with the 5.9L Cummins diesel engine.)

NOTE: SECTION 2.7 OF THE TRUCK WARRANTY MANUAL STATES DAIMLERCHRYSLER MOTORS CORPORATION IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR FAILURES RESULTING FROM IMPROPER REPAIR OR THE USE OF PARTS WHICH ARE NOT GENUINE DAIMLERCHRYSLER MOTORS CORPORATION / MOPAR OR DAIMLERCHRYSLER MOTORS CORPORATION / MOPAR APPROVED PARTS. DAMAGES CAUSED BY THE USE OF OIL FILTER NOT APPROVED BY DAIMLERCHRYSLER MAY NOT BE COVERED BY THE NEW VEHICLE WARRANTY. DAIMLERCHRYSLER RECOMMENDS THE FOLLOWING OIL FILTERS. DO NOT USE ANY OIL FILTER CONTAINING NEOPRENE. PLEASE SHARE THIS WITH YOUR CUSTOMERS.

RECOMMENDED OIL FILTERS FOR USE WITH CUMMINS 5.9L DIESEL ENGINE:

Part Number Manufacturer
05016547AC Mopar
LF3894 Fleetguard Stratopore
LF3552 Fleetguard Microglass
LF3949 Fleetguard Cellulose
3937695 Cummins Cellulose
FL896 MotorCraft Cellulose
L45335 Purolator Cellulose
PF1070 AC Delco Cellulose


Policy: Information Only

Notes:

The LF3349 Cellulose filter does not appear on this list. It was approved in the past for 12Valve engines, but it has been superseded by the LF3949, which has a stronger metal case for the 24 Valve engines. You can use your existing LF3349's for 12 valve engines without concern about warranty coverage.

What does this TSB mean?
If you use one of the filters in this list, you will not have to worry about warranty coverage of an oil related engine failure. If you choose to use another filter that is not on the list, DC will (justifiably) make you pay for repairs if a piston cooling nozzle becomes clogged by a piece of filter material. Some filters have disintegrated resulting in severe engine damage. When this happens, you must seek compensation from the manufacturer of the filter (numerous reports of Fram failures have surfaced recently, and Wix filters damaged some 1st Gen engines back in the 90's). If the manufacturer is standing behind their product, they will pay for the repairs. GOOD LUCK! Is saving a few bucks on an oil filter really worth the risk of a $4000 repair bill? Your decision...

Not mentioned in the TSB, but a valid reason for denial of warranty coverage is damage caused by foreign material introduced into the oil filter by the person changing the oil. You can not expect a manufacturer to pay for engine damage caused by carelessness during an oil change, that kind of damage is not due to a manufacturing defect! Anything in the center of the filter goes directly into the oil galley when the engine is started. When you open an oil container and pre-fill the oil filter, be very careful that you do introduce into the center of the filter any of these into the filter:

dirt or debris from your hands or the work area
a bit of sealing foil from the top of the oil container
plastic shavings from the oil container
plastic or paper from the oil filter wrapping or container

 

[edpoj]

if you goto
lesabret DOT com/filters/filter.html
it gives a good perspective of what a ac delco, fram, supertech and a puralator filter look like constructed and taken apart.
make your own assesments. this is just some info i found.

 

[Brian Barnhart]

quote:

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Fram has the smallest sized media per family of filters. Period.

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This may be true for some filter families. Has this been verified for all filters? I also question the idea that filter surface area is the primary factor in determining how well an oil filter filters or flows.

Replace the filter “media” with the same amount of sheet metal and it filters everything and flows nothing. Replace the filter “media” with the same amount of screen door screen and it flows like crazy and filters almost nothing (except for the broken nylon bypass valve of a Fram filter

). All the while, the “surface area” of both the sheet metal and screen door screen “media” is the same. I certainly can’t determine the filtering effectiveness flow characteristics of a given media by looking at it with the naked eye, counting pleats, or measuring/calculating the surface area. Which is better: A smaller amount of “highly effective” filter media, or 50% more of a “standard” filter media?

quote:

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Fram is therefore now and forever PHYSICALLY incapable of filtering as MUCH oil per unit time as ANY OTHER FILTER MADE with the same particle rating. notice I didnt say AS WELL, I said AS MUCH.

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The filter companies seem to be talking less about “particle ratings” and “micron ratings” these days. Instead they typically reference SAE tests, which are very tightly defined, and are probably rather expensive to run. I suspect SAE test results for Resistance to Flow, Filter Capacity and Contaminant Removal, and Efficiency are far more meaningful than any manufacturer’s nebulous “particle rating” or “micron rating”. SAE test results are available for some, but not all filters. It should also be noted that most manufacturers who provide SAE test results for their filters do so for only one (representative?) filter.

quote:

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Testing has shown that on avg, appx 5psi LESS is seen AFTER a Fram vs any other filter.

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I’ve not seen this data. Where can I find it?

quote:

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As was pointed out, Allied signal (not honeywell) is the owner of fram.

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Allied Signal bought Honeywell in 1999 and adopted the Honeywell name. For all practical purposes, Allied Signal no longer exists.

quote:

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Use a filter that exceeds the OEM standard. Fram is not it.

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I assume the “OEM standard” referred to here is the spec for the filter originally installed on an engine by the vehicle manufacturer at the factory. In some cases, these so-called “OEM” filters are not available over the counter. Where can the OEM standards/specs for filters be found? I believe essentially all filters available over the counter, including Fram, meet OEM requirements for replacement filters.

 

[Mystic]

I agree with many of the points you made, kev99sl. I think I was trying to make similiar points. We all have to make our own choices. I am not an expert on oil filters, but if I see oil filters cut open and one has cardboard endcaps and the other metal endcaps, I prefer the one with metal endcaps. Now, maybe the oil filter with cardboard endcaps is just as good. Maybe it is better. But I PERSONALLY prefer the metal endcaps. I feel more comfortable with the metal endcaps.

I also feel more comfortable with what seems like adequate filtering media, and what I feel are adequate bypass valves and anti-drainback valves. If I see things like this in an oil filter, I feel more comfortable and more welling to buy that oil filter brand. I prefer seeing stuff in the oil filter I am going to buy that seems well made. I like when I see inside the oil filter that everything has a neat construction, like somebody actually cared. I remember an old saying in engineering, ignored by many young people today, 'If it looks good, it probably is good.' And I might add, 'If it looks sloppy, it probably is because somebody did not care.'

I believe, like I mentioned earlier, that if a company makes poor quality products, ultimately that company is going to be in trouble. It probably will not happen right away, but give it time and word will get around-Brand X has gone downhill. Pretty soon, Brand X will go downhill.

The best way for any company to stay in business is to offer quality service and quality products. Sometimes people in charge forget this or feel they can ignore this. But it will catch up to you. The mere PERCEPTION that a product has declined in quality can kill a company. Perception is reality.

I don't wish bad things for anybody. But when I am spending my money for motor oil, oil filters, air filters, whatever, I want quality, or what I perceive as quality.

 

[turbochem]

quote:

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mechanic what is on *his* car. I note that no racers or mechanics are waving their hands in the air going 'ooo oooo I use fram!!!'

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Is that like asking a mechanic what oil he uses??

What happens when you ask him about PAO's and group III oils and he scratches his head??

Just because he repairs engines, does not mean he knows about lubrication and filtration.......

 

[QuadDriver]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mystic:
I agree with many of the points you made, kev99sl. I think I was trying to make similiar points. We all have to make our own choices. I am not an expert on oil filters, but if I see oil filters cut open and one has cardboard endcaps and the other metal endcaps, I prefer the one with metal endcaps. Now, maybe the oil filter with cardboard endcaps is just as good. Maybe it is better. But I PERSONALLY prefer the metal endcaps. I feel more comfortable with the metal endcaps.

I also feel more comfortable with what seems like adequate filtering media, and what I feel are adequate bypass valves and anti-drainback valves. If I see things like this in an oil filter, I feel more comfortable and more welling to buy that oil filter brand. I prefer seeing stuff in the oil filter I am going to buy that seems well made. I like when I see inside the oil filter that everything has a neat construction, like somebody actually cared. I remember an old saying in engineering, ignored by many young people today, 'If it looks good, it probably is good.' And I might add, 'If it looks sloppy, it probably is because somebody did not care.'

I believe, like I mentioned earlier, that if a company makes poor quality products, ultimately that company is going to be in trouble. It probably will not happen right away, but give it time and word will get around-Brand X has gone downhill. Pretty soon, Brand X will go downhill.

The best way for any company to stay in business is to offer quality service and quality products. Sometimes people in charge forget this or feel they can ignore this. But it will catch up to you. The mere PERCEPTION that a product has declined in quality can kill a company. Perception is reality.

I don't wish bad things for anybody. But when I am spending my money for motor oil, oil filters, air filters, whatever, I want quality, or what I perceive as quality.

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Here is the question no one has bothered to ask:

Lets assume someone got a prize GM Camaro with the big engine. It came from the factory with M1 and an AC delco duraguard filter (both perfectly replaceable at walmart, pepboys, advance, ad nauseum)

Data that says any other oil blows M1 out of the water is NEBULOUS at best. Data that shows any Fram filter outperforms the delco is non existant. Yet SOMETHING has made various car owners on this board make the change. Marketing? certainly not good word of mouth. Price? we have shown that prices are for all intents and purposes, equal.

And this begs the next observation....just as Fram users have been shown that OEM or other brands are better and cost the same, the syn oil and extended drain crowd will try to outdo each other on how long the oil has been in there. Used oil with 100 miles is no longer as good as or better than new oil. These guys have tens of thousands of miles. Just as the Fram is 'acceptable' but not the 'best', the used oil analysis shows the oil is acceptable, but not as good as new....see what Im getting at here? the logic boggles the mind. Instead of having a vehicle where every 'x' miles it gets new this and new that, we have n'x' miles and its 'still ok'. You would think if a person would want an oil of questionable purity and depleted additive package they would try to find some SC/SD oil still on the shevles as NOS. - rather than make their own!!!!

And the last observation....from every datasheet I have ever seen (and most are online nowadays) syn oil outperforms its dino bretheren by typically 10% aggregate, lets say for arguments sake 15% for the dealers ;-) Ok, that means my manu drain interval should go from say 7500 miles to 8250 miles. not 82500!!!!!! and with a cost differential of 2-400% (or greater I hear) the value add of a syn oil is rather poor. From a price/benefit standpoint, Syn oil should be used to address a SPECIFIC problem, not a general fix-all, at least until pricing becomes more realistic. (noisy valvetrains, damp environments, soft cams, super cold are all specific problems)

 

[kctom]

JohnBrowning:
Where, in the TSB, is Fram mentioned by name except in the notes that follow? I cannot believe that these notes were originally in the TSB. They were obviously added by someone.

In the TSB itself, many filters, other than Fram, are excluded. The TSB does not, in any way, single out Fram by name or implication.

Fram itself has addressed this TSB and has its answer posted on its WEB site. The problewm was never an issued of the "quality of construction." Daimler Chrysler claimed that the presence of neoprene, in some filters, was clogging these upper piston spray nozzles. Fram disputes that. Fram did remove the neopreme from the filter that they recomended for use in this engine. That seems like the actions of a responsible company.

Until someone shows me that a resposible company should have known that this neoprene would clogg these nozzles, Fram cannot be faulted.

 

[kctom]

This discussion seems long on opinion but short on facts. If Frams fail, they must not fail very often.

 

[QuadDriver]

quote:

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Originally posted by kctom:
This discussion seems long on opinion but short on facts. If Frams fail, they must not fail very often.

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Failing 'not very often' is a far cry from 'never failing' Since a failure can mean expensive smoky death in a short time, use ABF filters (any but fram)