Amsoil probably using Group III as well?

[TeeDub]

If you compare Amsoil to Mobil 1, product for product, the Noack Volatility of the Amsoil line is significantly lower - as are the Pour Points. This indicates not only that Amsoil is using PAO's, but likely some of the newer, advanced PAOs' such as the EOM, "Spectrasyn Plus" (for their SAE 0w-30/0w-40), and/or the Chevron "Do-Decene" PAO's in the formulation of their top tier lubes. The latest Amsoil MC oils and Four Stroke Marine oils look to me to be "Dumbbell blends" of regular PAO's and the Spectrsyn Ultra PAO's. This allows you to generate very stable synlubes with VI's in the 140-160 range using no polymeric thickeners

Given that Amsoil is recommended greatly extended service intervals for all their lubricants and not just their gas/diesel engine oils, I'm not sure they have the luxury to substitute less capable basestocks. For example, their commercial compressor fluids are recommended for drains of 8000+ hours, with periodic oil analysis - that's a full year of running 24/7 between changes. Furthermore, it is difficult enough to make a 25k/1 yr lubricant using the absolute best additives and basestocks available, much less trying to make them with Group III or even GTL stocks.

I haven't seen anything that would suggest that Amsoil is using any Group III stock in any products except their XL line and perhaps their 15w-40/PCO, synthetic blend.

Attempting to draw conclusions without any hard data (like a Gas Chromotography Scan), is mere speculation and does not even rise to the level of an educated guess.

 

[Drivebelt]

Some of the new Grp III+ (wax isomerate’s) have a VI of over 140 -- better than even the off-the-shelf PAO’s.

Elf Solaris LSX 5W-30

ACEA 2004 : C3 and A3/B4
API : SM / CF
MB : 229.31 / 229.51
BMW LONGLIFE 04
VW 502.00 / 505.00 / 505.01

This is a Grp III based oil and it is rated up to 40,000km (25k miles) oil changes. I suspect Elf is using a Grp III+ (wax isomerate) in this line of oils.

I don’t know what the cost structure is for Grp III (wax isomerate’s) compared to hydrocracked Grp III’s.

 

[ARB1977]

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Wonder why Redline or RP doesn't get the hate that Amsoil does?? There does seems like a "Hater Nation" when any question comes to Ams...

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Amsoil users hate Redline

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I used to use redline for majority of my trucks life with great effects and now use amsoil either way both are awesome oils.

 

[buster]

Elf does use some Group III+ in some of their oils. According to Total, Group III+ will slowly substitute PAO's.

I agree with TeeDub. The volatility kind of gives it away that Amsoil is using PAO. M1's volatility has gone up quite a bit over the years and that is when I believe they started to use Group III in the mix.

It wouldn't surprise me at some point if Amsoil does start using Group III+ if the cost is cheaper. They tend to follow XOM generally speaking (Diester to PAO etc.). It really doesn't matter regardless and it's completely speculative. Amsoil's response is very logical.

 

[TeeDub]

Just to set the record straight...

Amsoil started out as a 100% diester based synlube in 1972, with the basestock sourced from Hatco chemical. They transitioned to a PAO/Ester based lube sometime in the early 1980s, the PAO portion of which was purchased from Mobil.

Mobil began national distribution of an SAE 5w-20, entirely PAO based oil in 1975, however they ran into issues of seal compatibility and started adding some ester to mitigate this.

Therefore it would be more accurate to say that both Amsoil and Mobil 1 converged on the idea of using blended PAO/Ester basestocks, to achieve the best overall combination of physical/chemical properties for long drain use. I should add that not-so-recent advances in synthetic basestocks have reduced the need to add any ester at all.

 

[buster]

Good point TeeDub. I'd also give the edge to Amsoil's additive package, which seems to be better than ever IMO.

 

[JAG]

Is TeeDub TooSlick reincarnated? Today the similarities occured to me and I haven't seen TooSlick post in a while. Either way, they both make informative posts.

 

[Pablo]

JAG - I asked him that after his first post. He denies it.

 

[JAG]

Haha. Interesting! If he isn't the same, we found his twin!

 

[TeeDub]

Ever heard of a "Doppleganger"????

 

[moribundman]

I can answer that question with a resounding "no."

 

[Mike_dup1]

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Here's a question I can't figure out. Why doesn't Amsoil get rid of the dealer network and just sell their stuff in stores? I think they would have a lot of success in retail sales.

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Mobil and others sell through chain stores because it is a commodity oil and because the company doesn't have a network of dealers to be loyal to. AMSOIL doesn't sell through chain stores because they have loyalty to their dealer network. WalMart, Pepboys and Autozone have ALL inquired about putting AMSOIL on the shelf at their stores. AMSOIL has turned them all down. The Wal-Mart deal alone was worth nearly $50 million dollars.

AMSOIL chose not to go that route because it would put their dealer network out of business. Once AMSOIL's dealer network is out of business, their remaining outlets (chain stores) would then be able to dictate price. Pretty soon, AMSOIL has to dummy down their product just like every other commodity oil to be able to offer it for the price Wal-Mart (or any other chain store) is willing to pay. If they don't, their retail outlet simply takes them off the shelf and the company goes under. Walmart and Rubbermaid a prime example.

They know who has kept them in a double digit annual growth pattern for the last decade: their dealer network. They have no intentions of jeopardizing that relationship.

 

[JAG]

Doppleganger...no never heard of it but I looked it up! It is you! Welcome back. There was no hiding it. I think there is a famous Shakespeare quote about knowing someone just by their writings.?

 

[Patman]

Mike, why is Amsoil now sold in Canadian Tire in Canada then? Canadian Tire is a very huge chain of stores up here, in fact there are probably more CT locations all across Canada than there are Walmarts!

 

[Mike_dup1]

Because a dealer signed them up as retail accounts. They are not dealing with Asmoil. They now have policies in place so no additonal large retailers can be registered. Max is 12 location stores.

Most all big Chain stores don't want to deal with middlemen, they was special consideration right from the companies. They only care about making money and don't give a hoot about the companies they was consessiosn from. Mobil has alienated many of thier distrubutors for being on the shelfs of those chains stores but they could care less about their distribution network.

I wonder by chance did anyone see the program last Monday (?) on PBS about Wal-Mart and thier business practices? Very enlightening, really unbeleivable, 80% of what they sell comes from China, only 20% is domestic. They have even funded those foriegn companies to make competing products to USA companies and that ran them out of business.

 

[wgtoys]

Personally I don't have any problem with Amsoil choosing to use speciality stores and individual distributors to market their products. There is no way to get a unique product message across at WalMart or any big chain store. In our area some of the real auto parts stores carry Amsoil and/or Redline. Mass marketers are not the best way to sell high end specialized products and often lead to supplier death once they do take on a product.

Another big problem with mass marketers is that they cherry pick the product line. Say Amsoil did a deal with WalMart to carry Amsoil. WalMart would carry the 1-5 biggest selling items from the Amsoil catalog. Amsoil's specialty dealers would loose high volume sales and many would quit the business. Then the second and third tier by volume products would have nobody selling them and would likely whither and die.

Amsoil is being very smart to stick with a specialized distribution channel. It is a much better way to build a long-term diversified business than is being a ***** for the big box retailers.

 

[Patman]

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Another big problem with mass marketers is that they cherry pick the product line. Say Amsoil did a deal with WalMart to carry Amsoil. WalMart would carry the 1-5 biggest selling items from the Amsoil catalog. Amsoil's specialty dealers would loose high volume sales and many would quit the business. Then the second and third tier by volume products would have nobody selling them and would likely whither and die.

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With Canadian Tire, they only sell Amsoil's 0w30, 0w40, 5w30, 10w30 and the XL 5w20. They also sell the ATF I believe. They don't sell the oil filters, unfortunately.

 

[moribundman]

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Doppleganger...no never heard of it but I looked it up!

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It's "doppelgänger" (literally "double walker")!

 

[Mustang_Cougar]

Canadian Tire isn't the only retailer carrying Amsoil; G.I. Joe stores in the PNW carry a similar line of Amsoil products. It's been my observation that they don't sell a lot of Amsoil because there are so many other oils on the shelves right next to it. Amsoil sells best in a retail environment when it's isolated from the competition; otherwise, buyers will wise up to the price differential and buy a slightly lower priced product that will most likely still meet their performance requirements.

BTW: Are Amsoil reps allowed to sell competing lubricants alongside Amsoil? Or is this verboten?

 

[Pablo]

I can sell what I want, but I do choose Amsoil. I don't need to stock massive quantities, no capital tied up, etc.

GI Joes is how many stores now? But they were selling Amsoil before the 12 store limit. Very limited Amsoil product selection and typically qts only. I wouldn't mind having that account, though!