Amsoil Nano Tech oil Filters

[Dick in Falls Church]

The technology is licensed from Donaldson.
Donaldson is not supplying the media. The media is being provided by the same folks who provide the media to Donaldson, and it is slightly improved over that which Donaldson uses.

 

[Filter guy]

Donaldson is not the only one with the technology. When i have more time i'll post a more indepth answer. I have an industry magazine with a long article on nano technology.

You can read a Donaldson 2001 paper on nanotechnology here: http://www.donaldson.com/en/filtermedia/support/datalibrary/003313.pdf

And here in a 2003 paper..which is basically about cabin air filtration:


http://www.donaldson.com/en/filtermedia/support/datalibrary/003321.pdf


And if you like there is a Nanotechnology tutorial at a Fall conference in Chicago Nov. 13-16th.

" A new class in nanotechnology will be available for the first time. The all day tutuorial will include an overview of nanotechnology and the building environment it requires. Nanotechnology specialists will discuss current criteria and design approaches that might be used to address stability of vibration, noise, EMI/RFI, and electrical power, as well as cleanroom and biocontainment issues unique to nanotechnology. This tutorial will serve as preparation for and a companion piece to the nanotechnology Working Group organizational meeting the folowing day."

You can contact the IEST Fall Conference at 847-255-1561 if your interested..

[ October 15, 2005, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Filter guy ]

 

[Andy H]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stooge:
I would have to wonder - do you need this level of filtering, and does it get saturated (e.g. clogged) sooner needlessly?? Where's the research saying particles of these size ranges cause the majority of wear/problems and what filters are specifically engineered to remove these particle sizes? I can't believe that smaller is better after a point!!

---

Stooge,

This is a surface filtering media - not like the cellulose or blends that trap particles in the interior of the filter. These filters don't rely on contaminant pre-loading to become more effective like other media.

Here's an analogy: Take two filters - a section of chain link fence and a section of mosquito netting. The particle to be filtered is a tennis ball. The chain link fence will stop the tennis ball. It will almost completely fill the square in the fence that catches the ball. This will lower the ability of the fence to flow. Once it catches enough tennis balls, flow nearly stops. Time to get a new fence. On to the netting - the net will stop the tennis ball as well. It will only affect the filter pores that actually touch the ball - a VERY small area. Air or oil will continue to flow around the tennis ball to get to the pores that are shadowed by the ball, but aren't blocked by it.

This trapping without being plugged by the particle is why the nanofiber media can flow so well for so long while still effectively filtering.

Andy

 

[Craig]

I know Amsoil just broke the news about the new air filters
but I haven't heard the oil filter introduction yet. I do believe
it will happen soon though.

Regarding MLM.

It is all about money and with MLM you are giving the money
to the dealer instead of some ad agency.

The price of advertising adds a considerable amount to the
cost of anything being advertised. Over $1200 per car I have
heard but that's not hard info. Just realize it's alot of $$$$$.

RedLine products for example are top tier just like Amsoil. These are two companies that strive to produce excellent products.
In fact, like Amsoil, RedLine has extended drain intervals so these companies are actually trying to sell you LESS product than more. Quality rather than quantity.

Redline is a regular advertising type company while Amsoil is an
MLM company. Gee doesn't seem much of a difference in the price of the products is there. In fact with the preffered customer program Amsoil is less expensive than Redline.

In the Detroit area there is only one place to buy Redline. (a race shop) and only several in the entire lower peninsula of Michigan. Auto Zone does not have it here. Products that do not move fast do not get carried by big retailers.
Amsoil is much easier to find here if you look.

I am a lifetime Amsoil dealer and I can see where a educated
informed consumer could get turned off by a not so
educated Amsoil dealer. Amsoil does offer and encourage
dealer training. Not all dealers take the training but
are guided by their sponsor. Most dealers are far more informed
than the average employee in a parts store or lube shop.

So get over the MLM, it's the products, quality, and how they
perform that count, not the marketing.
Craig

 

[Filter guy]

Well I mentioned above I would post a more in depth answer... but I won't...lol

There is an article in a trade publication that I get. It is a research paper, similar to the two Donaldson links above. Very technical. If someone is really bothered send me a PM and i'll make you a copy of the article in full.

However, here is the acknowledgments:
"The work reported in this paper was funded by the National Science Foundation ( CTS 0310429), and by the companies in the Coalescence Research Consortium ( Ahlstrom Filtration, Inc. Donaldson Company, Fleetguard, Hankinson International, Hollingsworth and Vose, and Parker Hannifin Corporation). The support from these agencies is gratefully acknowledged."

FYI: Ahlstrom and Hollingsworth & Vose are media suppliers to the filter industry.

 

[Andy H]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Silvaccordex01:
Is Nov 1st a for sure release date, or an estimate? How much are these new filters gunna run?

---

I spent some time with Alan Amatuzio, EVP/COO of AMSOIL yesterday in Dallas at a regional 'roll-out' meeting for the new filters. The EaO filters will be publically announced the first of November. Filters are coming in to the Superior warehouse now, but probably won't be completely stocked until late November.

They're not being made by Hastings, Donaldson, or Wix. Four companies are doing what they do best. The filters are coming into Superior for labeling, boxing, and distribution. These things - and the relationships bringing them together - are more than two years in the making. Silicone ADVs; heavy, smooth, cans, thick end plates. Gaskets are 53 cents each. These are really beautiful filters.

Price wise, they'll be higher than the current SDF filters, but less than two SDFs.

Pleeeeze make one for my TDI...

Andy

 

[Andy H]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Andy H:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stooge:
[qb] I would have to wonder - do you need this level of filtering, and does it get saturated (e.g. clogged) sooner needlessly?? Where's the research saying particles of these size ranges cause the majority of wear/problems and what filters are specifically engineered to remove these particle sizes? I can't believe that smaller is better after a point!!

---

---

Sorry for the referenced post. Too early in the morning. I wrote accurately about the air filters, not the oil filter media.

The oil filter media is a depth-type media - less dense on top, more dense inside. There's more of a 'bypass-filter' type of effect here than a cellulose surface filter. Plugging will take a long while - and flow will stay way up as the filter ages, compared to other filter types. The fibers are very small and very regular. It's a thick, full synthetic media backed by a wire mesh.

A search on the SAE website will provide all you'd care to read about filtration effectiveness and engine wear. Some of the 'oldies but goodies' are 790089 "Diesel engine Wear with Spin-On By-Pass Lube Oil Filters", 881825 "Correlating Lube oil Filtration Efficiencies with Engine Wear", 881826 "Full Flow and bypass Oil Filtration in One Unit - The LF3000", and 881827 "review of Lubricant contamination and Diesel Engine Wear" (from the abstract: "It is concluded that operating with clean lube oil, maintained by 10 micron filtration, results in a diesel engine having better fuel economy, longer oil change intervals, superior performance, and greater durability." 10 micron filtration extends equipment life 8 times, while 7.5 micron filtration helped engines live 11 times longer.

Andy

 

[Filter guy]

Anyone remember the STP "Dual" Filter...

 

[BTC]

Any word when these filters will be available for ordering & delivery?

Will there be an equivalent nano filter available right out of the gate for every SDF filter currently being sold?

 

[Dick in Falls Church]

Supposed to be available beginning in Nov.
I strongly suspect that there will NOT be a new filter for each of the current SDF filters.

Need any SDF 44s? How about ASF 22? Or maybe an asf 54?

 

[Filter guy]

quote:

---

A search on the SAE website will provide all you'd care to read about filtration effectiveness and engine wear. Some of the 'oldies but goodies' are 790089 "Diesel engine Wear with Spin-On By-Pass Lube Oil Filters", 881825 "Correlating Lube oil Filtration Efficiencies with Engine Wear", 881826 "Full Flow and bypass Oil Filtration in One Unit - The LF3000", and 881827 "review of Lubricant contamination and Diesel Engine Wear" (from the abstract: "It is concluded that operating with clean lube oil, maintained by 10 micron filtration, results in a diesel engine having better fuel economy, longer oil change intervals, superior performance, and greater durability." 10 micron filtration extends equipment life 8 times, while 7.5 micron filtration helped engines live 11 times longer.

Andy [/QB]

---

But this is apples v oranges.

The reports you site based on Heavy Duty Diesel engines where "soot" is a contaminant in the oil and the heavy duty diesel guys need different filtration than automotive car owners.

This is where the 750 type remote mount by-pass became a standard of the heavy duty engine industry. Which since the advent of the spin-on type by-pass and ultimately the "LF3000" ( Cummins dual full flow/spin on bypass filter).Mack uses a different style for by-pass there have been other options.

With the new and future oil regulations for heavy duty diesel engines, soot control is becoming a bigger issue for them again.

The figures quoted for additional "life' in these studies is based on the additional soot in oil that "cars" wont see. That was the premise of the studies. Without soot contamination control, heavy duty engines would have shorter life is what the studies proved.

To use these heavy duty diesel engine studies to promote any automotive filter type is misleading...

 

[Ken2]

quote:

---

My question is, how is the flow. Generally when it comes to a filter, better filtration equals less flow. How are they filtering so much better without a huge drop in flow, or are they?

---

Flow will be equal to the engine designer's OEM filter. That's good enough for me.

When Clarcor Baldwin/Hastings) made the filters for Amsoil, they'd supply Amsoil with the filter recommendation list for the vehicles. They generally reverse engieer the OEM filter and match the specs.

Whoever is making these new filters for Amsoil is likely doing the same thing.


Ken

 

[Andy H]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken2:

quote:

---

My question is, how is the flow. Generally when it comes to a filter, better filtration equals less flow. How are they filtering so much better without a huge drop in flow, or are they?

---

Flow will be equal to the engine designer's OEM filter. That's good enough for me.

When Clarcor Baldwin/Hastings) made the filters for Amsoil, they'd supply Amsoil with the filter recommendation list for the vehicles. They generally reverse engieer the OEM filter and match the specs.

Whoever is making these new filters for Amsoil is likely doing the same thing.


Ken

---

Filters have to be AT LEAST as good as OEM requirements - that's the quality 'floor'. Synthetic media in general flows so much more - from the beginning and later when holding solids - that simply meeting the minimum flow is a walk in the park. The difference can be seen on the Donaldson charts -- one example is on initial cold start with 15w40. Cellulose will go into bypass at just under 50 degreesF, while the Endurance media doesn't bypass until 35 degrees F.

As for why the flow difference - make a 'filter' capable of stopping a tennis ball with a section of chain-link fence, and from a grid of 4 inch fench slats. Each will catch the ball but one will flow a lot more...

 

[Andy H]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Filter guy:

But this is apples v oranges.

The reports you site based on Heavy Duty Diesel engines where "soot" is a contaminant in the oil and the heavy duty diesel guys need different filtration than automotive car owners.

This is where the 750 type remote mount by-pass became a standard of the heavy duty engine industry. Which since the advent of the spin-on type by-pass and ultimately the "LF3000" ( Cummins dual full flow/spin on bypass filter).Mack uses a different style for by-pass there have been other options.

With the new and future oil regulations for heavy duty diesel engines, soot control is becoming a bigger issue for them again.

The figures quoted for additional "life' in these studies is based on the additional soot in oil that "cars" wont see. That was the premise of the studies. Without soot contamination control, heavy duty engines would have shorter life is what the studies proved.

To use these heavy duty diesel engine studies to promote any automotive filter type is misleading...

---

I understand what you're saying, FilterGuy - these are HD diesel studies. However -- These are before emission controls were dumping extra soot into the engines. And soot, while abrasive and an oil thickener and a catalyst for chemical reactions in the oil, is smaller than 1 micron until the dispersants start to die. The thinnest oil film in the engine is in the valve train at 0-1 micron. This is the main area I would expect to see soot cause wear if it's kept in proper suspension by fresh oil.

The larger particles in the oil - the ones that cause the chain-reaction of wear - are larger than a micron and are controlled by the majority of bypass filters available.

These equipment longevity numbers hold equally well for industrial gearboxes - no EGR issues there.

Andy

 

[Filter guy]

Andy H:

You just had to didn't you...

Yes soot is a small particle in the oil and filters will not efficiently remove a "piece" of soot.

However, as Paul Harvey would say, here's the rest of the story....

Emission controls are one thing but that still hasn't stopped soot from entering the oil.

There have been two sides to the story. One is the oil companies and their blends of oils that have soot dispersants in them. They have recommended oil change intervals but with the usual caveats of depending on loads, terrain, idling, etc..

Then you have the users..the fleets. With 9-10 gallons of oil per change, downtime to change oil and do inspections, fleets want to maximize their oil change interval and reduce costs which is why you see a high number of them doing oil analysis which determines --for their use-- what the change intervals are.

The you have the filter companies caught in the middle. They took a look at filters and redesigned them for engines with EGR, exhaust gas recirculation and emmission controls.

Soot will however agglomorate. And here is where better filters and by-pass filters come into play.

The oils capacity to hold in suspension soot diminishes over time. Oil companies would have fleets change their oil then. Fleets know, from practical use and oil analysis, that bypass filters will extend the life of the oil by removing the "soot" and other contaminants.

Certain "spinner" type by-pass have a collection bowl which shows the soot in "solid" form when the filter is changed and the bowl cleaned. Other by-pass filters also do a great job of removing the soot as their efficiency is good at the below 10 micron range. When soot particles coagulate they become bigger and able to be trapped by by-pass filters.

Standard full flow filters are not designed to greatly reduce the soot loading of oil. So truckers with nothing but a standard filter need to change oil more frequently.

Which brings us back to the SAE tests..as they were done with heavy duty diesel engines in mind and the soot loading factor..they are not to be taken as gospel for gasoline engine cars. That is misleading..imho.

Further studies are being done on deisel engines as the new PC10 oils for 2007 are being tested. And per mandate the PC10 oils and engines will need to trap soot. Engine companies are looking at various ways of doing this for thier future engines..

sorry for any misspellings..i'm at lunch and need to head back to work..lol

 

[Filter guy]

Oh and as for "before" emmissions..Luberfiner by-pass filters were the standard of the industry. Founded in 1936. Long before emission controls.

The 750 by-pass filter is named "Luberfiner" even though every company sells a replacement.
It is/was an OEM option at all truck OEM companies.

So the soot and contaminant that it removed has been long proved. Again by oil analysis by fleets.

 

[jsharp]

I'm surprised so many people are concerned about this filter flowing enough. Donaldson is considered a premium company making quality filters. Given their experience with industrial and other types of filters I wouldn't worry about the design of this filter at all.

 

[Filter guy]

AndyH..no problems.

Your right in that better filtration helps wear control. I don't think anyone disputes that.

My problem, and maybe it's just me

, is using studies designed around heavy duty engines and using their statistics to show wear reducing numbers is misleading because auto's won't have ( or shouldn't have) those type contaminant numbers. Therefore the results that show X % reduction is misleading because there shouldn't be those levels of contaminanat in automotive oils like there is in heavy duty diesel engines.

What i'm saying is that in a heavy duty engine study the reduction may be ..as an example.. 20-30% in the 5-20 micron range. But with a car engine it might be 2-5%. So why tout the numbers from a heavy duty engine study?

The higher contaminant levels in heavy duty engines v cars is part "wear metals" and a lot of it is "soot". Or so i've been told over the years.

Those studies were mainly designed to show how by-pass filters reduce wear rates. As the premium micro-glass style filters weren't used in the studies ( if memory serves ) which would be a little better than cellulose at removing "soot". That is why Cummins and Fleetguard did their own study and came out with the LF3000 combination full flow/ by-pass to replace their LF670 ( spin on full flow) & LF777 ( spin on by pass) filters.

(And the reason Cummins/Fleetguard came out with the LF777 originally was to keep Truckers from using Luberfiner 750 assemblies and filters on their engines. Enough was enough that a competitor was getting all that biz...lol)

Needless to say Cat, Cummins, Detroit, Mack..and even Volvo and Mercedes have done extensive testing on the merits of by-pass filtration for heavy duty diesel engines.

The new oil regs are reawakening the need to remove soot out of the oil because it will now become a federal requirement in '07.

 

[Andy H]

Ummm...FilterGuy? I'm not disagreeing with you on soot, bypass filters, dispersants and soot clumps, or the rest. And I'm not suggesting that 2002 emissions are the only sources of soot in HDEO. I hope you haven't taken any of that as a challenge. I work with small trucking companies and help them choose cost effective filtration, lubricants, and drain intervals.

My point is that every piece of machinery - whether gas or diesel engine or gearbox - will generate wear metals and the lube oil and filters will have to handle contamination. It might be cellulose getting past breathers in paper mills, or dust, or any number of other sources. (Take a look at a particle count for new-in-the-drum John Deere hydraulic oil. Farmers are being injured in uncontrollable equipment due to NEW oil not meeting used-oil contamination limits. JD is forced to ultra-filter NEW oil when factory-filling hydraulic systems.) Better filtration has been proven to lower wear and extend both maintenance intervals and equipment life. The SAE papers are for HD diesels. The wear control benefits of better filters extend well outside the HD diesel engine environment.

Andy

 

[Phoenix8936]

i can pretty much say that Donaldson will be making all of amsoil's filters..they have been doing the same thing for years just for the heavy duty market..they are great filters..but i do have a complaint about amsoil's new Ea air filters..but that a different forum..

wix doenst make anything with nan-fiber technology but they sure do make great oil filters for normal usage..i do have a sponsorship with them and stand behind using the filtration products they make