I think Amsoil makes good products but it would be nice if they opened up a little about the production facility , how they blend , how they test...etc. , without trying to instal the WOW factor . Just some basic info about Amsoil , who they are and why they claim to make a great product .
Amsoil & Certifications
- Thread starter buster
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
If you care that much about API service levels & ILSAC .... don't worry... Amsoil has you covered:
DEO, 5W-40, CJ-4/SN
OE, 0W-20, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
OE, 10w30, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
OE, 5W-20, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
OE, 5w30, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
OED, 15w40, CJ-4/SN
PCO, 15w40, CI-4/SL CI-4 PLUS
XL, 5W-20, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
XL, 5w30, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
XL, 10w30, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
XL, 10W-40, SN
XL, 0W-20, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
I think you're missing the point of this thread. None of the oils you listed above have actually been certified to meet these specs. They are only "recommended for" applications requiring these specs. There is a slight difference there.
Actually ALL those oils are API listed.
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
If you care that much about API service levels & ILSAC .... don't worry... Amsoil has you covered:
DEO, 5W-40, CJ-4/SN
OE, 0W-20, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
OE, 10w30, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
OE, 5W-20, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
OE, 5w30, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
OED, 15w40, CJ-4/SN
PCO, 15w40, CI-4/SL CI-4 PLUS
XL, 5W-20, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
XL, 5w30, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
XL, 10w30, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
XL, 10W-40, SN
XL, 0W-20, SN, Resource Conserving, GF-5
I think you're missing the point of this thread. None of the oils you listed above have actually been certified to meet these specs. They are only "recommended for" applications requiring these specs. There is a slight difference there.
Actually ALL those oils are API listed.
Originally Posted By: phenix78_99
"I don't want to make this into an Amsoil bashing thread,"
In my line of work, we call this a "qualifier."
No matter what you do or how well you do it, there will always be those people who just don't like you.
This guy gets it. 19 posts on BITOG.
So with that said I will answer to the best of my ability despite buster's taunt. Certification - why not? It's a good question!
First of all I can't read old Al's mind, but I think at some point he really hated the API. With a passion. Al Amatuzio didn't like API controlling formulas and didn't like the word "petroleum" in a body somehow "approving" Amsoil's synthetic products. Didn't like 'em and didn't trust 'em. Yeah, he would use their name if there was some marketing advantage, but other than that Al had no use for the API. So, time wound into the 1980's, and 90's....they tried a few API certs, didn't hurt so bad, but still had solemnly sworn to not submit the top grades. I truly think the sons and managers had to sell Al on getting the XL line certified, you know for the quick oil change places. It's really that simple. Still Al would not allow the top lines to be submitted to API, but times changed, demand changed. Amsoil actually made little notice when DEO 5W-40 went full API CJ-4/SN listed. They did play up the API angle with the XL and OE lines, but still use the same wording. Amsoil remains a bit lame as viewed the way buster sees them, and Amsoil can be very slow at times. There is nothing hidden or sinister about the SS line not being certified, it's just Amsoil doesn't think it's necessary. Others have said that here already. Combine that with some old fashioned no rush attitudes.
"I don't want to make this into an Amsoil bashing thread,"
In my line of work, we call this a "qualifier."
No matter what you do or how well you do it, there will always be those people who just don't like you.
This guy gets it. 19 posts on BITOG.
So with that said I will answer to the best of my ability despite buster's taunt. Certification - why not? It's a good question!
First of all I can't read old Al's mind, but I think at some point he really hated the API. With a passion. Al Amatuzio didn't like API controlling formulas and didn't like the word "petroleum" in a body somehow "approving" Amsoil's synthetic products. Didn't like 'em and didn't trust 'em. Yeah, he would use their name if there was some marketing advantage, but other than that Al had no use for the API. So, time wound into the 1980's, and 90's....they tried a few API certs, didn't hurt so bad, but still had solemnly sworn to not submit the top grades. I truly think the sons and managers had to sell Al on getting the XL line certified, you know for the quick oil change places. It's really that simple. Still Al would not allow the top lines to be submitted to API, but times changed, demand changed. Amsoil actually made little notice when DEO 5W-40 went full API CJ-4/SN listed. They did play up the API angle with the XL and OE lines, but still use the same wording. Amsoil remains a bit lame as viewed the way buster sees them, and Amsoil can be very slow at times. There is nothing hidden or sinister about the SS line not being certified, it's just Amsoil doesn't think it's necessary. Others have said that here already. Combine that with some old fashioned no rush attitudes.
I'd be more mad if Amsoil changed,IMO,I like a company that refuses to be like everyone else.As long as they have a excellent product,as they do,I have no issues with any sort of company like this,whether they sell oil,performance parts,or whatever.
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Originally Posted By: DragRace
I'd be more mad if Amsoil changed
Like what RP did. They took out their "claim to fame" Synerlec,which is what was supposed to be what made their oil leaps and bounds above all others,according to RP. Now it`s just an over priced-over the counter hum drum oil. I realize they have their HPS,but it`s impossible to find,unless you want to pay someone to ship it to you,which makes it even MORE expensive.
Amsoil,don`t change a thing please.
I'd be more mad if Amsoil changed
Like what RP did. They took out their "claim to fame" Synerlec,which is what was supposed to be what made their oil leaps and bounds above all others,according to RP. Now it`s just an over priced-over the counter hum drum oil. I realize they have their HPS,but it`s impossible to find,unless you want to pay someone to ship it to you,which makes it even MORE expensive.
Amsoil,don`t change a thing please.
Originally Posted By: buster
Let me ask you this: why can Mobil make a 15k mile oil that is fully licensed and Amsoil can't? What makes them different?
If it's not ZDP levels, or base oil interchange, then what is it?
No, I agree it's not zinc or base oil. As I mentioned, XOM has the resources to either fight or pay multiple claims. They're obviously willing to accept the risk of someone going beyond OEM recommendations, albeit not always by a huge amount.
Amsoil may not be in that position. While they certainly seem to stand behind their oils, if they don't certify their long drain oils, and someone under warranty goes nuts and runs 25,000 miles and has problems, Amsoil has an easy out - your vehicles specified SM/GF-4 certified oil or better. You chose non-certified oil.
If they went and offered 25,000 miles or whatever the OEM recommends, then that dilutes the reputation of the oil. Few manufacturers recommend 25,000 mile OCIs, so a customer might then think that the oil really isn't up for the long drain. If they make a different recommendation under warranty versus after warranty, then it's getting to the point where they'll be needing a bunch of legalese mumbo jumbo.
Let me ask you this: why can Mobil make a 15k mile oil that is fully licensed and Amsoil can't? What makes them different?
If it's not ZDP levels, or base oil interchange, then what is it?
No, I agree it's not zinc or base oil. As I mentioned, XOM has the resources to either fight or pay multiple claims. They're obviously willing to accept the risk of someone going beyond OEM recommendations, albeit not always by a huge amount.
Amsoil may not be in that position. While they certainly seem to stand behind their oils, if they don't certify their long drain oils, and someone under warranty goes nuts and runs 25,000 miles and has problems, Amsoil has an easy out - your vehicles specified SM/GF-4 certified oil or better. You chose non-certified oil.
If they went and offered 25,000 miles or whatever the OEM recommends, then that dilutes the reputation of the oil. Few manufacturers recommend 25,000 mile OCIs, so a customer might then think that the oil really isn't up for the long drain. If they make a different recommendation under warranty versus after warranty, then it's getting to the point where they'll be needing a bunch of legalese mumbo jumbo.
I completely agree with addguy's earlier post.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
They don't want EVERYONE'S business.
Exactly. They're not interested in competing with the likes of ExxonMobil as that would require massive resources. Instead, Amsoil has carved out a niche for themselves where they (Amsoil) and ExxonMobil can co-exist without stepping on each other's toes too much. It's all well thought out, me thinks. The customer that only cares about an API logo is just going to buy the cheapest oil that carries it. That is not the type of customer that Amsoil is after.
^I was about to add something to this effect. Oil enthusiasts can appreciate the quality of the product. It's pretty solid, and guys using it don't need it say be officially licensed. I haven't seen some trend of bad Amsoil UOA popping up, etc.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
They don't want EVERYONE'S business.
Exactly. They're not interested in competing with the likes of ExxonMobil as that would require massive resources. Instead, Amsoil has carved out a niche for themselves where they (Amsoil) and ExxonMobil can co-exist without stepping on each other's toes too much. It's all well thought out, me thinks. The customer that only cares about an API logo is just going to buy the cheapest oil that carries it. That is not the type of customer that Amsoil is after.
^I was about to add something to this effect. Oil enthusiasts can appreciate the quality of the product. It's pretty solid, and guys using it don't need it say be officially licensed. I haven't seen some trend of bad Amsoil UOA popping up, etc.
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Originally Posted By: buster
I am just wondering why they can't specify why they won't formally submit their products for testing.
Maybe they don't want to and it's "literally" their business?
I am just wondering why they can't specify why they won't formally submit their products for testing.
Maybe they don't want to and it's "literally" their business?
I get it...
why claim that it "meets" or "exceeds" what in their eyes is an inferior specification in the first place ?
If it's a betterer oil than the standard allows for, and they stand by their warranty so boldly, simply state to the consumer, via a simple look-up table...vehicle x, use this one for so mnay miles, this one for less than that, or the other one for what the OEM specs interval wise.
No need to mention needles specs, when it's better than all the specs, and warranted.
If it meets the spec, then the testing should be available to show it...and if it exceeds it, same thing, there should be some testing that demonstrates it...not certification per se, but actual test results.
But if you SAY that it meets a spec, then there ought to be the testing to demonstrate, with or without an actual certification.
Using non standard tests to demonstrate that it is better than an API oil that has no requirement to meet that spec in the first place isn't a demonstration of betterer...nor meeting and exceeding.
why claim that it "meets" or "exceeds" what in their eyes is an inferior specification in the first place ?
If it's a betterer oil than the standard allows for, and they stand by their warranty so boldly, simply state to the consumer, via a simple look-up table...vehicle x, use this one for so mnay miles, this one for less than that, or the other one for what the OEM specs interval wise.
No need to mention needles specs, when it's better than all the specs, and warranted.
If it meets the spec, then the testing should be available to show it...and if it exceeds it, same thing, there should be some testing that demonstrates it...not certification per se, but actual test results.
But if you SAY that it meets a spec, then there ought to be the testing to demonstrate, with or without an actual certification.
Using non standard tests to demonstrate that it is better than an API oil that has no requirement to meet that spec in the first place isn't a demonstration of betterer...nor meeting and exceeding.
Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Originally Posted By: buster
I am just wondering why they can't specify why they won't formally submit their products for testing.
Maybe they don't want to and it's "literally" their business?
I think it's poor form to claim to meet a specification then not demonstrate same (certificate or not, the claim can be verified independently)
Originally Posted By: buster
I am just wondering why they can't specify why they won't formally submit their products for testing.
Maybe they don't want to and it's "literally" their business?
I think it's poor form to claim to meet a specification then not demonstrate same (certificate or not, the claim can be verified independently)
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
The customer that only cares about an API logo is just going to buy the cheapest oil that carries it.
This is not an accurate comment. There are a LOT of us out there that care about API certification( variety of reasons )who do not use the cheapest oil we can get that carries it. I care about it and I use Royal Purple which is hardly the cheapest oil that is API certified.
The customer that only cares about an API logo is just going to buy the cheapest oil that carries it.
This is not an accurate comment. There are a LOT of us out there that care about API certification( variety of reasons )who do not use the cheapest oil we can get that carries it. I care about it and I use Royal Purple which is hardly the cheapest oil that is API certified.
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Like what RP did. They took out their "claim to fame" Synerlec,which is what was supposed to be what made their oil leaps and bounds above all others,according to RP. Now it`s just an over priced-over the counter hum drum oil. I realize they have their HPS,but it`s impossible to find,unless you want to pay someone to ship it to you,which makes it even MORE expensive.
Amsoil,don`t change a thing please.
RP was under tremendous pressure from their customer base to offer API certified oils meeting current standards. It hardly seems fair to now hold them in a negative view for actually doing so. Every company must adapt and change to meet new demands from their cutomers. RP made a smart move by updating their offerings.
If anything you could say they followed Amsoil's lead. They did so by offering non API oils that are superior to the average off the shelf oil but also by offering a current API certified line for those who need/want that( that is still pretty good and more than likely also superior to the average off the shelf oil ).
The HPS line will cover anyone who wants their oils with Synlerlac. I would wager if you went to the RP site and used the dealer locator you could find a local source who either has it in stock or can get it in for you. Amsoil also requires shipping too( unless you have a rare local retailer with some )so I just don't see the negative comments about RP and the priaise for Amsoil?
Please tell me how you have come to the conclusion that their new API line is just another hum drum over the counter oil? Please let us know how you came to this view? What bad experience or test have you had/had done that backs this up? Based on your questions to me I would have to assume you have not used it yourself so how can you say it is nothing special?
Not meant antagonistic but I don't understand how you can say these things?
Like what RP did. They took out their "claim to fame" Synerlec,which is what was supposed to be what made their oil leaps and bounds above all others,according to RP. Now it`s just an over priced-over the counter hum drum oil. I realize they have their HPS,but it`s impossible to find,unless you want to pay someone to ship it to you,which makes it even MORE expensive.
Amsoil,don`t change a thing please.
RP was under tremendous pressure from their customer base to offer API certified oils meeting current standards. It hardly seems fair to now hold them in a negative view for actually doing so. Every company must adapt and change to meet new demands from their cutomers. RP made a smart move by updating their offerings.
If anything you could say they followed Amsoil's lead. They did so by offering non API oils that are superior to the average off the shelf oil but also by offering a current API certified line for those who need/want that( that is still pretty good and more than likely also superior to the average off the shelf oil ).
The HPS line will cover anyone who wants their oils with Synlerlac. I would wager if you went to the RP site and used the dealer locator you could find a local source who either has it in stock or can get it in for you. Amsoil also requires shipping too( unless you have a rare local retailer with some )so I just don't see the negative comments about RP and the priaise for Amsoil?
Please tell me how you have come to the conclusion that their new API line is just another hum drum over the counter oil? Please let us know how you came to this view? What bad experience or test have you had/had done that backs this up? Based on your questions to me I would have to assume you have not used it yourself so how can you say it is nothing special?
Not meant antagonistic but I don't understand how you can say these things?
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Most people don't even know about the API, let alone a logo...at that point, it's pretty hard for them to care about it.
If they don't know, and don't care, nor care to research...but they will still spend money in perceived "quality".
That's where marketting steps in...16 times less wear (in industry approved test XYZ) is a fluff...4 ball wear tests against industry leaders is a fluff
If they don't know, and don't care, nor care to research...but they will still spend money in perceived "quality".
That's where marketting steps in...16 times less wear (in industry approved test XYZ) is a fluff...4 ball wear tests against industry leaders is a fluff
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Most people don't even know about the API, let alone a logo...at that point, it's pretty hard for them to care about it.
If they don't know, and don't care, nor care to research...but they will still spend money in perceived "quality".
That's where marketting steps in...16 times less wear (in industry approved test XYZ) is a fluff...4 ball wear tests against industry leaders is a fluff
I will disagree. While most people don't know what it means there are tons of people who actually follow what is written in their vehicle's owner's manual and will only buy an oil that meets those spec's. I sold parts and it is very common for people to come in with either the manual or a list and have them say I need XXXX weight that has the API Starburst( or a specific service level )and meets Ford, Chrysler, GM, etc... Was very common.
Again, people may not know what that symbol means but a lot of them know they need an oil with it( according to their vehicle mfg ).
Most people don't even know about the API, let alone a logo...at that point, it's pretty hard for them to care about it.
If they don't know, and don't care, nor care to research...but they will still spend money in perceived "quality".
That's where marketting steps in...16 times less wear (in industry approved test XYZ) is a fluff...4 ball wear tests against industry leaders is a fluff
I will disagree. While most people don't know what it means there are tons of people who actually follow what is written in their vehicle's owner's manual and will only buy an oil that meets those spec's. I sold parts and it is very common for people to come in with either the manual or a list and have them say I need XXXX weight that has the API Starburst( or a specific service level )and meets Ford, Chrysler, GM, etc... Was very common.
Again, people may not know what that symbol means but a lot of them know they need an oil with it( according to their vehicle mfg ).
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Most car owners don't know what else is in that folder with the radio passcode, rather than take it to the dealer, whine about the price, and look at the stamped book when they get it back.
We will have to agree to disagree then.
Most car owners don't know what else is in that folder with the radio passcode, rather than take it to the dealer, whine about the price, and look at the stamped book when they get it back.
We will have to agree to disagree then.
You're probably both right. A significant number will blindly follow the manufacturer's recommendations, even down to the point in taking it to the dealer for an OC, believing their service to be necessary to maintain warranty. Another significant number will want it done as cheaply as possible, with the "oil is oil" credo.
Of course, there are other groups, like those that would use Amsoil non-API under warranty and make an informed choice, those who will run M1 for 3,000 miles only, and so forth. There's a reason that there isn't only one oil on the market, and it isn't just because of competing oil specifications.
Of course, there are other groups, like those that would use Amsoil non-API under warranty and make an informed choice, those who will run M1 for 3,000 miles only, and so forth. There's a reason that there isn't only one oil on the market, and it isn't just because of competing oil specifications.
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