Amazon set to lay off thousands in Washington state

[Dave Hess]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/amazon-confirms-thousands-layoffs-194545178.html


Amazon Senior Vice President Beth Galetti stated in a news post on Amazon’s news page, “The reductions we are making today will impact approximately 16,000 roles across Amazon and we’re again working hard to support everyone whose role is impacted.

That starts with offering most US-based employees 90 days to look for a new role internally (timing will vary internationally based on local and country-level requirements).”

 

[JeffKeryk]

You clearly do not. All these big tech companies are simply practicing a modern version of mercantilism which you mistake for capitalism, but instead of a country doing it, big business - many of whom now have market caps larger than most countries GDP - do it. Exploit cheap foreign labor (colonies), monopolize scarce resources using there influence and wealth (captive markets), Aquire (invade/ take over) any smaller power that may threaten them.

You have it backwards. Mercantilism depends heavily on government protectionism and regulation; quite the opposite of capitalism. Big tech is far more free market dependent; it depends on capitalism. Big tech is based on intelluctual property, stock markets and behavorial data to define and drive markets they operate in.

 

[slo town]

Regarding Capitalism, no one ever said it was nice. One of its fundamentals is competition, another is risk. There will be blood.
having said that, no other economic system has raised more people out of poverty and raised the standard of living; it's not even close.

Your friends took a risk. I've known plenty who did the same, including me. There are no guarantees.

Here's the issue I have with today's super capitalism. Imagine I am a company that found the cure for cancer.

With me being a corporation I'd have two choices.

#1 I could hold the entire world ransom with my creation, demanding the highest possible compensation for it, even if that cost millions of lives. I could become an overnight trillionaire, my quest for maximum profit being my primary motivation.

#2 Or I could have more benevolent beliefs and make my creation available and affordable to all, me being satisfied with earning a couple of billion in the process.

I have zero doubt which choice I'd make if I were a corporation, and that would be #2. I would find it morally repugnant to gorge myself financially at the expense of others (and entire nations) like the Wall Street system does today.

Scott

 

[JeffKeryk]

Legal immigration is how America was built. I am an immigrant, it was no easy task.

As were my grandparents; Ukraine and Ireland. Hard working, honest people. Good people.

By the way, during the 18th and most of the 19th centruies "legal immigration" was a pretty loose term.
Congrats on making America a better place with your work ethic. Many could take a lesson, IMO.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Here's the issue I have with today's super capitalism. Imagine I am a company that found a cure for cancer.

With me being a corporation I'd have two choices.

#1 I could hold the entire world ransom with my creation, demanding the highest possible compensation for it, even if that costs millions of lives. I could become an overnight trillionaire, my quest for maximum profit being my primary motivation.

#2 Or I could have more benevolent beliefs and make my creation available and affordable to all, me being satisfied with earning a couple of billion in the process.

I have zero doubt which choice I'd make if I were a corporation, and that would be #2. I would find it morally repugnant to gorge myself financially at the expense of others (and entire nations) like Wall Street does today.

Scott

Without the carrot, do you think there would be so much investment in research? Capitalism is steeped in incentive.
Smith believed some things were too big and/or important to leave them to pure capitalism.

Silicon Valley capitalism's opportunity was very good to me. Let's just say it is important to me to pay it forward. In most countries, due to my choices I would be relagated to a pretty mundane career and life. At best.

By the way, I am not the biggest fan of the business of American Medicine.

 

[SeaJay]

the lie we have been told for 40 years.

Seems we were good enough to make bombers and tanks in 1944, but not good enough to make iphones.

The story as I have heard it is that Steve Jobs gave a widely observed presentation demonstrated what the iphone was capable of using a prototype of an iphone in early 2007. The response was immediately super well received with technophobes as well as a host of others around the US wanting to know when the product would be available. He knew he wanted to get it to market ASAP because he felt that it would sell in the millions as soon as it hit the Apple stores.

Now the problem was, how to get at many thousands of assembly workers and huge factories opened quickly to get iphones quickly to market. China was the only practical solution and they were able to do it far, far quicker than in the US due to regulations, availability of both land and workers. It would have taken years in the US to get that kind of production up and running. And to top it off, China could do for a lower cost than in the US. Jobs did what any smart business person would have done in that situation. A revolution in phone technology began.

 

[2strokeNorthstar]

I don't think you really realize what is "poor". Everything but the car is pretty cheap, and only the cell phone with a $30-40/month plan is necessary for modern life.
People working a couple jobs 60+hrs a week to spend half their gross income on a bad apartment, and buy overpriced junk food at the local supermarket, and don't have a reliable car or time, to go to the cheaper grocery store in town, aren't really having a "good time".

1/3 of the US households have less than $50k per income... So after taxes, rent, utility bills, health insurance? They get down to $3-400 per week for food, transportation, clothes... They aren't ordering $150/month tv/internet packages to watch the disney channel on their 87" TV, or getting 4-5% cash back credit cards.

We make a decent amount of money, but even I have a hard time forking over what a semi-reliable car costs these days, and that's with having the space and tools to do most of the maintenance and simple fixes.... And we have no mortgage or car payments.

Don't want to get into an argument but we travel a lot and have family not lucky enough to live in the US. People work full time jobs and cant afford a house that has windows just south of the border. Not an exaggeration. I stand by my statement that it's a great time to be poor in the USA. Not a great time like fun, just comparing it to other points in history

 

[alarmguy]

Companies always say it's because there isn't enough qualified workers but in reality it's about $$. Any company with shareholders is going to eventually cut everything to the bare bones.

That’s the fiduciary responsibility of the company.
(It’s loyalty by the law has to be to the shareholders)
Run as lean as efficient as possible for the greatest amount of profit.

 

[JeffKeryk]

The story as I have heard it is that Steve Jobs gave a widely observed presentation demonstrated what the iphone was capable of using a prototype of an iphone in early 2007. The response was immediately super well received with technophobes as well as a host of others around the US wanting to know when the product would be available. He knew he wanted to get it to market ASAP because he felt that it would sell in the millions as soon as it hit the Apple stores.

Now the problem was, how to get at many thousands of assembly workers and huge factories opened quickly to get iphones quickly to market. China was the only practical solution and they were able to do it far, far quicker than in the US due to regulations, availability of both land and workers. It would have taken years in the US to get that kind of production up and running. And to top it off, China could do for a lower cost than in the US. Jobs did what any smart business person would have done in that situation. A revolution in phone technology began.

There's more. China's manufacturing system is unparalleled in the world. China offers its massive, highly skilled labor force, sophisticated manufacturing infrastructure, and specialized supplier ecosystem. All this and of course lower labor costs. American business followed GE's Jack Welch's offshoring advice. And here we are.

 

[alarmguy]

Don't want to get into an argument but we travel a lot and have family not lucky enough to live in the US. People work full time jobs and cant afford a house that has windows just south of the border. Not an exaggeration. I stand by my statement that it's a great time to be poor in the USA. Not a great time like fun, just comparing it to other points in history

I agree mostly.
Bottom line is life has never been easy in the history of mankind then it is right at this moment in the United States.
Your life is what you make it. Robust, taxpayer funded programs provide food so everybody can eat in this country unlike any time in history.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Don't want to get into an argument but we travel a lot and have family not lucky enough to live in the US. People work full time jobs and cant afford a house that has windows just south of the border. Not an exaggeration. I stand by my statement that it's a great time to be poor in the USA. Not a great time like fun, just comparing it to other points in history

I take your comment as to mean most of the world envy's our "poor" comparitively. That's why so many want to come here. Opportunity is key...

 

[Owen Lucas]

More and more startups were run by "foreigners". I'm using the words "American" and "foreigner" to keep it clean.

Indians? C'mon don't be shy.

It would have taken years in the US to get that kind of production up and running. And to top it off, China could do for a lower cost than in the US. Jobs did what any smart business person would have done in that situation. A revolution in phone technology began.

We can't even make the tiny screws needed for iPhones:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-china-made.html

no other economic system has raised more people out of poverty and raised the standard of living; it's not even close.

100%

 

[SC Maintenance]

You have it backwards. Mercantilism depends heavily on government protectionism and regulation; quite the opposite of capitalism. Big tech is far more free market dependent; it depends on capitalism. Big tech is based on intelluctual property, stock markets and behavorial data to define and drive markets they operate in.

Then why if its based on meritocracy were all the big tech CEO's paying millions of dollars to stand like exotic pets at the most recent inauguration?

Their reward was a even larger surge in H1B approvals, many of which are student visa conversions from the same US colleges they refuse to hire American students from. These are not high level best and brightest. So yes, government protectionism / regulation. I could write a book on all the special rules for big tech.

At the risk of antagonizing you further which is not my intent believe it or not, I am going to use another of your examples to further my point. In the 50's and 60's GM sold the most cars, had the most revenue, and the most gross profit. By capitalistic measures they were the clear leader in cars. You have argued on this board many times, that because Tesla has the highest market cap, they are clearly the most successful car company, even though they don't sell the most units, make the most revenue, or the most gross profit. So your correct, in a mercantilist system using mercantilist measures, Tesla has hoovered up the most scarce resources (market cap), and are the winner under mercantilism.

 

[Pablo]

The less advantaged immigrants are often willing to work hard to build a better life. That's how America was built.

Nothing wrong with that. But just jump in with no papers? When we had to get papers? No.

Actually, no. My career was in Silicon Valley where companies are crying for talent. That's why I am so big on public higher education.
Beyond that, who would pick your fruit?

Immigrants work throughout our economy, mainly in labor intensive sectors like agriculture, construction, food workers, manufacturing, cleaning and maintenance, etc. Often in physically demanding or essential roles like farmworkers, construction laborers, housekeepers, cooks, and drivers.

I never said they didn't.

But all the doom and gloom is speculation.

I mean to be fair, I can't say a lot of our (inflation) problems have been caused by minimum wages. Some would say that's speculation.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Then why if its based on meritocracy were all the big tech CEO's paying millions of dollars to stand like exotic pets at the most recent inauguration?

Their reward was a even larger surge in H1B approvals, many of which are student visa conversions from the same US colleges they refuse to hire American students from. These are not high level best and brightest. So yes, government protectionism / regulation. I could write a book on all the special rules for big tech.

At the risk of antagonizing you further which is not my intent believe it or not, I am going to use another of your examples to further my point. In the 50's and 60's GM sold the most cars, had the most revenue, and the most gross profit. By capitalistic measures they were the clear leader in cars. You have argued on this board many times, that because Tesla has the highest market cap, they are clearly the most successful car company, even though they don't sell the most units, make the most revenue, or the most gross profit. So your correct, in a mercantilist system using mercantilist measures, Tesla has hoovered up the most scarce resources (market cap), and are the winner under mercantilism.

There is a difference in being the biggest car manufacturer by number and revenue vs highest market cap. They are different metrics.

Tesla is valued by the market differently than GM, Toyota, etc. Tesla is a technology company.

I suggest Tesla's market value is driven by the market's perception on AI, robotics, etc in addition to automobiles.
The stock market is a forward looking entity; perception drives the market, right?

I believe it is fair to say AI is driving the incredible market run. Consider the Magnificent 7, which Tesla is part of. No pure car company is even close.

I have never taken your posts as antagonistic. I glean a lot of information and thought from them. When we refuse to listen, we refuse to learn.
I will not comment on politics.

 

[JeffKeryk]

But all the doom and gloom is speculation.

I mean to be fair, I can't say a lot of our (inflation) problems have been caused by minimum wages. Some would say that's speculation.

Not sure I get your point... Maybe explain a little more? Thanks!

 

[JeffKeryk]

Why don't Americans do that work? I've done my share of hard labor for peanuts.

 

[The_Jeff]

Imagine how much higher salaries in the US would be if we didn't have tens of millions of guest workers.

You'd be getting rid of what they spend in the economy too so the few percent of the GDP they make would disappear.

 

[Vercingetorix]

The job problem in America was perfectly understood in the 60’s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Stop_at_Willoughby

 

[Owen Lucas]

Why don't Americans do that work? I've done my share of hard labor for peanuts.

Well, my quote was deleted.

I think in many instances, people's time and labor is worth more than whatever meager pay is provided for agricultural work. The type of work is also below many peoples standards. It's too physical, if you're going to do physical work, might as well be a skilled worker like a plumber or framer and make 5x more.

There are certainly many eligible people to do this work, people doing nothing, but it's easier to get free money from the gov't than pick berries.

I've done physical work myself but it was in HVAC. Sweating in a shipping container brazing copper refrigerant lines, climbing ladders with equipment, sealing external ducts on tall buildings in the summer, pulling up large 1/4" plates through roof access hatches to rebuild compressor stands in a compressor room, changing fans in cooling towers, installing hvac units on cranes etc. I was paid well. No way I'd pick berries.