Alternative to GTL T6 0W40 but still an hdeo/pceo for Honda 600RR race bike

First - forget about using any oil that is rated Energy/ Resource Conserving. Only use wet-clutch rated motorcycle oil JASO MA/ MA1/ MA2.

Then, know what kind of oil temperatures you are getting during usage, and match it to ambient temperature and race length. This can help decide when it's appropriate to go up a grade, or when it's more advantageous to blend in some higher viscosity oil of the same brand and type.

Your friend is correct, ester oils will protect your engine and transmission more reliably than the rest at the extreme usage limit, and will limit the amount of gear- clutch- and heat-related shear compared to other types of oils.

Motorcycle Ester Oils:

Bel-Ray EXS 4T
Fuchs Silkolene Pro 4
Maxima Maxum 4 Extra
Millers NanoDrive 4T
Motul 300V Factory Line 4T
Penrite Ten Tenths MC 4ST
Redline High Performance/ Racing Motorcycle Oil 4T
Torco T-4SR Super Sport

I'm willing to admit I do not know the entire universe of ester-based oils, so there may indeed be a few others that I have not mentioned.

Used to be some of the ester oil manufacturers would produce 100% ester, now most blend in some degree of poly alpha olefins (PAO) for hydrodynamic friction reduction, but also for cost-savings. Even so, they are still top shelf oils and many of the pros, especially in endurance racing, use them.

Not sure it was adequately answered, but in a racing application, use at least a 10W in whichever oil you select. Going to a 0W or 5W will likely result in more viscosity index improver, which is the main element in viscosity shearing. The top brands I've listed still use the best base oils, no need to worry about that like you would with an automotive application, unless... you're racing in cold weather (Alberta province?).

Also, the OP's requirement to find the most reasonably priced product, like it's only going to just be a little bit more than the Walmart/ Canadian Tyre sale price for regular motor oil: Sorry guy, the best costs a lot more - in US $, in the range of $18 - $30 per liter.

However, on the upside, these types of oils *might* last for more than one race weekend, but testing/ analysis would be required to prove that wear metals can still be in a tolerable range (but more $ for analysis).
Another informative one. Haha yes I'm in Alberta! Not that we race in winter or anything. The only reason behind going with the 0wXX is the likelihood that there is more group iv/v base stock to achieve the 0w. I suppose M1 euro 0w40 is known to have more pao poe than some other oils.

I guess it's a balance of all things that need to be considered.

Two engines blew up last race round. Both engines were running premium oil. One engine a highly modified race engine. Another a higher mileage stock 750cc, this one had motul 300v in it. Guess it's time was up.
 
This was very informative! Funny I just read the thread on the story behind BLS' RC45.

I have two 5L jugs of M1 FS 0W40 I just bought this week now on my oil shelf in the basement. Canadian Tire had M1 on sale for 45% off this week.

I won't get into it in this thread but choosing from my variety of M1 oil stash for my 2022 Hyundai smartstream 2.5T spec'd for 0W30 is taking up as much pondering time as choosing an oil for the race bike has.

I'll be trying that M1 euro full SAPS 0w40 in the race bike come spring.
I would ask why does one need a 0w or 5W in a motorcycle especially when racing. A 10w-30 would probably have more protection [between the parts] than a 0W or 5W-40 in a higher output M/C engine run hard. I would bet a 15W-40 HDEO oil would out perform a 0w or 5W-40 HDEO in wear protection.
 
I don't think I've seen anyone suggest Motul 300V, the green stuff, not the red stuff. You'll likely never go back to anything else.
 
Savoy racers choose 30 grade because it gives the right flow at the normal engine operating
temperature of 212ºF and that would be the viscosity of 10 cSt at operating temps... so that
means for every 1000 rpms increase your oil pressure increases another 10 psi... a 30 grade
flows more oil at higher rpms which flows more oil between the critical bearings
which carries away more heat and you're not wasting HP just pumping oil through the blow
off valve...

30 grade psi
1000 10
2000 20
3000 30
4000 40
5000 50
6000 60
7000 70
8000 80
9000 90
10000 99
11000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve

40 grade psi
1000 12
2000 24
3000 36
4000 48
5000 72
6000 84
7000 96
8000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve
9000 99
10000 99
11000 99

50 grade psi
1000 15
2000 30
3000 45
4000 60
5000 75
6000 90
7000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve
8000 99
9000 99
10000 99
11000 99

To know for sure I went to trouble to installed a digital oil
pressure gauge on my RC45 to verify 30 grade at 8000 rpms 82 Psi close
enough to perfect...

MrRC45Oil85Psi.jpg


The same 30 grade at 203F Oil flowing 10 psi perfect...
RC45Coolant203FOil10.jpg


The choice is yours, but choosing a 30 grade over a 40 grade is smarter because it will:

1)increase 1 to 2 HP at the rear wheel...
2)quicken the throttle response coming out of the corners...
3)decrease over all operating temps...
4)increase the oil flow at the critical bearings...

Any one of 30w 100% synthetic motorcycle specific or car oils will meet
and exceed both your racing and mileage expectations...

Quote 540Rat
SECTION 2 – MOTOR OIL VISCOSITY SELECTION

THE BENEFITS OF USING THINNER OIL:

• Thinner oil flows quicker at cold start-up to begin lubricating
critical engine components much more quickly than thicker oil can.
Most engine wear takes place during cold start-up before oil flow can
reach all the components. So, quicker flowing thinner oil will help
reduce start-up engine wear, which is actually reducing wear overall.

• The more free flowing thinner oil at cold start-up, is also much
less likely to cause the oil filter bypass to open up, compared to
thicker oil. Of course if the bypass opened up, that would allow
unfiltered oil to be pumped through the engine. The colder the ambient
temperature, and the more rpm used when the engine is cold, the more
important this becomes.

• Thinner oil also flows more at normal operating temperatures. And
oil FLOW is lubrication, but oil pressure is NOT lubrication. Oil
pressure is only a measurement of resistance to flow. Running thicker
oil just to up the oil pressure is the wrong thing to do, because that
only reduces oil flow/lubrication. Oil pressure in and of itself, is
NOT what we are after.

• The more free flowing thinner oil will also drain back to the oil
pan quicker than thicker oil. So, thinner oil can help maintain a
higher oil level in the oil pan during operation, which keeps the oil
pump pickup from possibly sucking air during braking and cornering.

• The old rule of thumb that we should have at least 10 psi for every
1,000 rpm is perfectly fine. Running thicker oil to achieve more
pressure than that, will simply reduce oil flow for no good reason. It
is best to run the thinnest oil we can, that will still maintain at
least the rule of thumb oil pressure. And one of the benefits of
running a high volume oil pump, is that it will allow us to enjoy all
the benefits of running thinner oil, while still maintaining
sufficient oil pressure. A high volume oil pump/thinner oil combo is
preferred over running a standard volume oil pump/thicker oil combo.
Because oil “flow” is our goal for ideal oiling, NOT simply high oil
pressure.

• Oil flow is what carries heat away from internal engine components.
Those engine components are DIRECTLY oil cooled, but only INdirectly
water cooled. And better flowing thinner oil will keep critical engine
components cooler because it carries heat away faster. If you run
thicker oil than needed, you will drive up engine component temps. For
example: Plain bearings, such as rod and main bearings are lubricated
by oil flow, not by oil pressure. Oil pressure is NOT what keeps these
parts separated. Oil pressure serves only to supply the oil to this
interface. The parts are kept apart by the incompressible hydrodynamic
liquid oil wedge that is formed as the liquid oil is pulled in between
the spinning parts. As long as sufficient oil is supplied, no wear can
occur. In addition to this, the flow of oil through the bearings is
what cools them.

Quote Gmtech94

When I raced we were sponsored by an oil company and helped with the
research of their product .The thought at the time was to run 20w50
race oil to provide for the best lubrication under racing conditions
hence no oil related failures . After many races and a lot of real
data research the conclusion was in this case to run a 10w30 oil as it
provided better lubrication and less engine wear over a long period of
time ,remember endurance racing in 24 and 30 hour races . Although we
never had an engine failure due to oil properties we did have a lot of
feedback on engine wear as well as transmission and clutch wear . I
have to say we did abuse these bikes on occasion with spinning the
back wheel to turn the bike as well as the occasional fall .The
ignition was a weak link but I could change out the pulsers in about
17 seconds once the bike was in the pits . In conclusion 10w30 ran
cooler and did not break down as much as the thicker oils did.
Hello and 1st post on the forum (I read it several months, and try to learn the basics)

I need an advice and guidance what oil should run on a very strictly class of racing at 600cc.

I prepare a 600 CBR RR 2010 model at STK600 rules (don’t have money and support to enter on WSS600 engine, and can’t pay all this $$$$, pretty much all I pay them from my pocket myself)

From your answer on your RC45 HRC kit bike you run 30W oil, and also myself until now (as a road bike and road use driving condition) I run 30W one (Honda manual says 10W-30 and don’t specify what should be just the API rating, and not be Energy conserving one)

What you suggest me to run ? ( I see on another topic a suggestion you said https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/2016-cbr600rr-10w40.384251/)

Does the HTHS matter if one 30W is higher or lower from another 30W ? (I will keep oil changes complete 3 weekends at every time)

For example the Redline one is 3.8 and higher from the others.

Best regards
 
Does the HTHS matter if one 30W is higher or lower from another 30W ? (I will keep oil changes complete 3 weekends at every time)

For example the Redline one is 3.8 and higher from the others.
Yes, the HTHS viscosity is what really counts. It's what the oil viscosity becomes when it's being sheared between parts and becomes hotter from the shearing. If you have a choice, then you want the xW-30 with the higher HTHS viscosity.
 
Yes, the HTHS viscosity is what really counts. It's what the oil viscosity becomes when it's being sheared between parts and becomes hotter from the shearing. If you have a choice, then you want the xW-30 with the higher HTHS viscosity.
I have access to :
Motul 300V 5W-30 FL (very difficult to find it,but some times available, rest 30W viscosities of that line NO)
Redline 10W-30 Motorcycle
AMSOIL Metric Motorcycle 10W-30
Motul 7100 10W-30
Castrol Power 1 Ultimate 10W-30

All they have upside down a small difference in 40/100C (thinner or thicker) and a difference in HTHS.

It will make any difference that small differences in HTHS ? (refer if the lower HTHS will make difference in Hp “STK600 rules, not to much to alter, or doesn’t matter and choose the highest HTHS ?)

Thanks in advance for
 
I have access to :
Motul 300V 5W-30 FL (very difficult to find it,but some times available, rest 30W viscosities of that line NO)
Redline 10W-30 Motorcycle
AMSOIL Metric Motorcycle 10W-30
Motul 7100 10W-30
Castrol Power 1 Ultimate 10W-30

All they have upside down a small difference in 40/100C (thinner or thicker) and a difference in HTHS.

It will make any difference that small differences in HTHS ? (refer if the lower HTHS will make difference in Hp “STK600 rules, not to much to alter, or doesn’t matter and choose the highest HTHS ?)

Thanks in advance for
What's the reason for going with a xW-30? Is it part of the race rules? For the best motor protection, I'd choose a 10W-30 with the highest HTHS if you're going to run a 30 grade.
 
Does the HTHS matter if one 30W is higher or lower from another 30W ?
For example the Redline one is 3.8 and higher from the others.
Best regards

Hiya Kid...
HTHS High Temp High Shear measures the viscosity flow of engine oil at
150ºC or 302ºF under constant shear... the difference between Redline
HTHS of 3.80 and my Mobil 1 5W30 HTHS of 3.05 is only 0.75 which
according to oil analysis does not change my oil's wear protection
enough to matter... HTHS might matter more if your CBR 600 is
constantly showing high 300F temps on the race track...

ViscosityGuide4.webp
 
Hiya Kid...
HTHS High Temp High Shear measures the viscosity flow of engine oil at
150ºC or 302ºF under constant shear...
Not really. It's the kinematic viscosity of the oil at high shear rate and high temperature, like seen in journal bearings at high RPM. If the oil viscosity decreases too much in a journal bearing (or between any moving parts that shears the oil), then the parts start rubbing together more which can cause more wear. HTHS isn't a "measure of the flow", it's a measure of the dynamic oil viscosity at a defined high temp and high shear rate. A higher HTHS will always give more film thickness between moving parts, and therefore give more protection from wear. That's the main premise of Tribology.

the difference between Redline
HTHS of 3.80 and my Mobil 1 5W30 HTHS of 3.05 is only 0.75 which
according to oil analysis does not change my oil's wear protection
enough to matter... HTHS might matter more if your CBR 600 is
constantly showing high 300F temps on the race track...
An oil with 0.75 higher HTHS viscosity is actually a lot. Your HTHS calibration scale is broken. 😉 0.75 cP more HTHS can make a lot of difference in wear protection. Blackstone UOA is like looking for wear differences through a straw, a very narrow view of only measured particles around 5 microns and smaller. Basically a very insensitive method of determining wear. Especially when it's just all kinds of random data points.

You'd have to religiously do UOAs on the same engine to determine if anything was really going on. And you'd also have to carefully do a visual inspection of every oil filter. Been lots of cases where the UOA wear particle counts barely increased (may still seem relatively "normal" by most people), yet there were all kinds of visible metal particles in the oil filter. Particles way too large to show up on a standard Blackstone type of UOA.
 
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I am running Mobil 1 (fs), 0 W 40 in my new generation GoldWing. When I switched ( from Rotella 5 W 40), I did an oil analysis at 3800 miles just to see if it was holding up. It sheared to a middle/low 30 wt. which is perfect for the wing as Honda calls for a 30wt. anyhow. Wear numbers were very good and it will probably look better if I analyze again as bike was fairly new, and still had probably 20% of Rotella mixed in. Totally different bikes but thought you might like hearing from someone actually using the Mobile 0 W 40 in a shared sump motorcycle
 
This was very informative! Funny I just read the thread on the story behind BLS' RC45.

I have two 5L jugs of M1 FS 0W40 I just bought this week now on my oil shelf in the basement. Canadian Tire had M1 on sale for 45% off this week.

I won't get into it in this thread but choosing from my variety of M1 oil stash for my 2022 Hyundai smartstream 2.5T spec'd for 0W30 is taking up as much pondering time as choosing an oil for the race bike has.

I'll be trying that M1 euro full SAPS 0w40 in the race bike come spring.
M1 Euro A3/B4 is not wet clutch compatible.
If you don’t mind buying a pail of HDEO, have a look at Petro-Can Duron 10w40.
P 1200
Zn 1300
Available in 4x4L boxes and maybe 12x1L.
 
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Don’t get wrapped up in ester, PAO, POE, etc. Get yourself a good jaso ma fully formulated motorcycle oil in the correct weight and ride on. Personally I use HPL and Amsoil metric motorcycle in 10w-40 flavor for the ninja 250r. No, I don’t track the bike just commute, however, I do wring it’s neck every time I through a leg over it, I ride it quite hard. Still, UOA’s come back fine and she purrs like a kitten.
 
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