Alternative to GTL T6 0W40 but still an hdeo/pceo for Honda 600RR race bike

Joined
Jan 4, 2018
Messages
21
Location
Alberta Canada
I've ran Shell Rotella T6 0W40 in my 2008 Honda CBR600RR's for a few years.

One is a race bike and the oil gets drained after every race weekend or two. I picked up this bike this season.

One of the more experienced racers who builds/tears down his own engine. Same engine as mine. Has found he was getting some more than normal engine wear while using T6. And suggested using an ester based oil.

Not sure if an oil with more POA would be as protective as a a higher POE content would.

I like to buy oil when it's on sale for 40-50% off here in Canada.

I look for either JASO-MA2 or an oil that does not have "resource conserving".

The fact that the oil is being drained from the bike so often is why I want to find a good protective oil for a good price. Some racers do a complete oil and filter change every race weekend. I need to keep costs in check. If I bought the oil for a good enough price I would at least drain and fill every race weekend. And change the filter every few rounds etc.

I can then use the oil in my generator or can even put it in my wife's 2004 Suzuki XL7 2.7L V6.

Any recommendations? M1 euro 5W40? Any 0W40's?

The bikes do get started in cold mornings. 40°f-50°f.

Something that withstands high heat and sustained high RPMs and provides excellent wear reduction.

Currently in the race bike is Castrol Edge 5W40 non resource conserving. $35 cdn for 5L sale.

I do have 15L of M1 5W30 EP in my stash for my '22 Hyundai 2.5L Turbo. But it has energy/resources conserving designation.

I'd very much appreciate some opinions etc. Thanks!
 
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
1,943
Location
Ca USA
I'd very much appreciate some opinions etc. Thanks!

Savoy racers choose 30 grade because it gives the right flow at the normal engine operating
temperature of 212ºF and that would be the viscosity of 10 cSt at operating temps... so that
means for every 1000 rpms increase your oil pressure increases another 10 psi... a 30 grade
flows more oil at higher rpms which flows more oil between the critical bearings
which carries away more heat and you're not wasting HP just pumping oil through the blow
off valve...

30 grade psi
1000 10
2000 20
3000 30
4000 40
5000 50
6000 60
7000 70
8000 80
9000 90
10000 99
11000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve

40 grade psi
1000 12
2000 24
3000 36
4000 48
5000 72
6000 84
7000 96
8000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve
9000 99
10000 99
11000 99

50 grade psi
1000 15
2000 30
3000 45
4000 60
5000 75
6000 90
7000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve
8000 99
9000 99
10000 99
11000 99

To know for sure I went to trouble to installed a digital oil
pressure gauge on my RC45 to verify 30 grade at 8000 rpms 82 Psi close
enough to perfect...

MrRC45Oil85Psi.jpg


The same 30 grade at 203F Oil flowing 10 psi perfect...
RC45Coolant203FOil10.jpg


The choice is yours, but choosing a 30 grade over a 40 grade is smarter because it will:

1)increase 1 to 2 HP at the rear wheel...
2)quicken the throttle response coming out of the corners...
3)decrease over all operating temps...
4)increase the oil flow at the critical bearings...

Any one of 30w 100% synthetic motorcycle specific or car oils will meet
and exceed both your racing and mileage expectations...

Quote 540Rat
SECTION 2 – MOTOR OIL VISCOSITY SELECTION

THE BENEFITS OF USING THINNER OIL:

• Thinner oil flows quicker at cold start-up to begin lubricating
critical engine components much more quickly than thicker oil can.
Most engine wear takes place during cold start-up before oil flow can
reach all the components. So, quicker flowing thinner oil will help
reduce start-up engine wear, which is actually reducing wear overall.

• The more free flowing thinner oil at cold start-up, is also much
less likely to cause the oil filter bypass to open up, compared to
thicker oil. Of course if the bypass opened up, that would allow
unfiltered oil to be pumped through the engine. The colder the ambient
temperature, and the more rpm used when the engine is cold, the more
important this becomes.

• Thinner oil also flows more at normal operating temperatures. And
oil FLOW is lubrication, but oil pressure is NOT lubrication. Oil
pressure is only a measurement of resistance to flow. Running thicker
oil just to up the oil pressure is the wrong thing to do, because that
only reduces oil flow/lubrication. Oil pressure in and of itself, is
NOT what we are after.

• The more free flowing thinner oil will also drain back to the oil
pan quicker than thicker oil. So, thinner oil can help maintain a
higher oil level in the oil pan during operation, which keeps the oil
pump pickup from possibly sucking air during braking and cornering.

• The old rule of thumb that we should have at least 10 psi for every
1,000 rpm is perfectly fine. Running thicker oil to achieve more
pressure than that, will simply reduce oil flow for no good reason. It
is best to run the thinnest oil we can, that will still maintain at
least the rule of thumb oil pressure. And one of the benefits of
running a high volume oil pump, is that it will allow us to enjoy all
the benefits of running thinner oil, while still maintaining
sufficient oil pressure. A high volume oil pump/thinner oil combo is
preferred over running a standard volume oil pump/thicker oil combo.
Because oil “flow” is our goal for ideal oiling, NOT simply high oil
pressure.

• Oil flow is what carries heat away from internal engine components.
Those engine components are DIRECTLY oil cooled, but only INdirectly
water cooled. And better flowing thinner oil will keep critical engine
components cooler because it carries heat away faster. If you run
thicker oil than needed, you will drive up engine component temps. For
example: Plain bearings, such as rod and main bearings are lubricated
by oil flow, not by oil pressure. Oil pressure is NOT what keeps these
parts separated. Oil pressure serves only to supply the oil to this
interface. The parts are kept apart by the incompressible hydrodynamic
liquid oil wedge that is formed as the liquid oil is pulled in between
the spinning parts. As long as sufficient oil is supplied, no wear can
occur. In addition to this, the flow of oil through the bearings is
what cools them.

Quote Gmtech94

When I raced we were sponsored by an oil company and helped with the
research of their product .The thought at the time was to run 20w50
race oil to provide for the best lubrication under racing conditions
hence no oil related failures . After many races and a lot of real
data research the conclusion was in this case to run a 10w30 oil as it
provided better lubrication and less engine wear over a long period of
time ,remember endurance racing in 24 and 30 hour races . Although we
never had an engine failure due to oil properties we did have a lot of
feedback on engine wear as well as transmission and clutch wear . I
have to say we did abuse these bikes on occasion with spinning the
back wheel to turn the bike as well as the occasional fall .The
ignition was a weak link but I could change out the pulsers in about
17 seconds once the bike was in the pits . In conclusion 10w30 ran
cooler and did not break down as much as the thicker oils did.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
1,943
Location
Ca USA
I would run 10w40 4T. In this bike at that temp range under the conditions you mention there is no need for a 0wxx or 5wxx
For a racing 600 I would run a 5W30 100% synthetic... no need to waste precious ponies pumping a 40 when a 30 will meet and exceed your mileage expectations...
 

Roland1

Thread starter
Joined
Jan 4, 2018
Messages
21
Location
Alberta Canada
Savoy racers choose 30 grade because it gives the right flow at the normal engine operating
temperature of 212ºF and that would be the viscosity of 10 cSt at operating temps... so that
means for every 1000 rpms increase your oil pressure increases another 10 psi... a 30 grade
flows more oil at higher rpms which flows more oil between the critical bearings
which carries away more heat and you're not wasting HP just pumping oil through the blow
off valve...

30 grade psi
1000 10
2000 20
3000 30
4000 40
5000 50
6000 60
7000 70
8000 80
9000 90
10000 99
11000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve

40 grade psi
1000 12
2000 24
3000 36
4000 48
5000 72
6000 84
7000 96
8000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve
9000 99
10000 99
11000 99

50 grade psi
1000 15
2000 30
3000 45
4000 60
5000 75
6000 90
7000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve
8000 99
9000 99
10000 99
11000 99

To know for sure I went to trouble to installed a digital oil
pressure gauge on my RC45 to verify 30 grade at 8000 rpms 82 Psi close
enough to perfect...

MrRC45Oil85Psi.jpg


The same 30 grade at 203F Oil flowing 10 psi perfect...
RC45Coolant203FOil10.jpg


The choice is yours, but choosing a 30 grade over a 40 grade is smarter because it will:

1)increase 1 to 2 HP at the rear wheel...
2)quicken the throttle response coming out of the corners...
3)decrease over all operating temps...
4)increase the oil flow at the critical bearings...

Any one of 30w 100% synthetic motorcycle specific or car oils will meet
and exceed both your racing and mileage expectations...

Quote 540Rat
SECTION 2 – MOTOR OIL VISCOSITY SELECTION

THE BENEFITS OF USING THINNER OIL:

• Thinner oil flows quicker at cold start-up to begin lubricating
critical engine components much more quickly than thicker oil can.
Most engine wear takes place during cold start-up before oil flow can
reach all the components. So, quicker flowing thinner oil will help
reduce start-up engine wear, which is actually reducing wear overall.

• The more free flowing thinner oil at cold start-up, is also much
less likely to cause the oil filter bypass to open up, compared to
thicker oil. Of course if the bypass opened up, that would allow
unfiltered oil to be pumped through the engine. The colder the ambient
temperature, and the more rpm used when the engine is cold, the more
important this becomes.

• Thinner oil also flows more at normal operating temperatures. And
oil FLOW is lubrication, but oil pressure is NOT lubrication. Oil
pressure is only a measurement of resistance to flow. Running thicker
oil just to up the oil pressure is the wrong thing to do, because that
only reduces oil flow/lubrication. Oil pressure in and of itself, is
NOT what we are after.

• The more free flowing thinner oil will also drain back to the oil
pan quicker than thicker oil. So, thinner oil can help maintain a
higher oil level in the oil pan during operation, which keeps the oil
pump pickup from possibly sucking air during braking and cornering.

• The old rule of thumb that we should have at least 10 psi for every
1,000 rpm is perfectly fine. Running thicker oil to achieve more
pressure than that, will simply reduce oil flow for no good reason. It
is best to run the thinnest oil we can, that will still maintain at
least the rule of thumb oil pressure. And one of the benefits of
running a high volume oil pump, is that it will allow us to enjoy all
the benefits of running thinner oil, while still maintaining
sufficient oil pressure. A high volume oil pump/thinner oil combo is
preferred over running a standard volume oil pump/thicker oil combo.
Because oil “flow” is our goal for ideal oiling, NOT simply high oil
pressure.

• Oil flow is what carries heat away from internal engine components.
Those engine components are DIRECTLY oil cooled, but only INdirectly
water cooled. And better flowing thinner oil will keep critical engine
components cooler because it carries heat away faster. If you run
thicker oil than needed, you will drive up engine component temps. For
example: Plain bearings, such as rod and main bearings are lubricated
by oil flow, not by oil pressure. Oil pressure is NOT what keeps these
parts separated. Oil pressure serves only to supply the oil to this
interface. The parts are kept apart by the incompressible hydrodynamic
liquid oil wedge that is formed as the liquid oil is pulled in between
the spinning parts. As long as sufficient oil is supplied, no wear can
occur. In addition to this, the flow of oil through the bearings is
what cools them.

Quote Gmtech94

When I raced we were sponsored by an oil company and helped with the
research of their product .The thought at the time was to run 20w50
race oil to provide for the best lubrication under racing conditions
hence no oil related failures . After many races and a lot of real
data research the conclusion was in this case to run a 10w30 oil as it
provided better lubrication and less engine wear over a long period of
time ,remember endurance racing in 24 and 30 hour races . Although we
never had an engine failure due to oil properties we did have a lot of
feedback on engine wear as well as transmission and clutch wear . I
have to say we did abuse these bikes on occasion with spinning the
back wheel to turn the bike as well as the occasional fall .The
ignition was a weak link but I could change out the pulsers in about
17 seconds once the bike was in the pits . In conclusion 10w30 ran
cooler and did not break down as much as the thicker oils did.

I appreciate the detailed informative response!

Given suggestions have more or less pointed to choosing a motorcycle specific oil. I'm gonna have to start researching the differences between bike and car oil etc.

I've simply read this and that online, on bitog and...

Reason I pick a 0W is apparently because a 0W has higher group iv/v to achieve 0W.
And apparently group iv/v adheres to metal better?

And the spread between 0W and 40 makes the 0W40 sheer down to a 30 quicker. Then again if I'm going to be draining the oil after ever race weekend it may not sheer down that fast.

The fella that tears down his own engine is a machinest I believe and given he said T6 wasnt providing enough wear protection and to use an ester based oil...

Then we start looking for oils with more ester base, right.

I'm no expert so I appreciate every response I get!

We're talking 1 hour of engine run time and 50km of mileage. Most of it at high rpm.

Maybe doing such short intervals is overkill. But it seems everyone is doing it in my racing association.

Keep the ideas coming etc.
 
Joined
Nov 20, 2006
Messages
28,930
Location
MA, Mittelfranken.de
For a racing 600 I would run a 5W30 100% synthetic... no need to waste precious ponies pumping a 40 when a 30 will meet and exceed your mileage expectations...
Just a thought, when I bought my brand new Fireblade 900 Honda put 5w30 in the engine as spec. I broke it in properly and let Honda change the oil, the first big trip was 600km all autobahn at night running over 7500 rpm most of time sometimes higher. It scattered the engine 500km into the trip at 4am just outside Köln.
Honda was littered with blown up Fireblades and promptly changed the oil spec to 10w40 or 10w50, they replaced the engine and used the new oil spec and it never had that problem again.
 

ZeeOSix

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One of the more experienced racers who builds/tears down his own engine. Same engine as mine. Has found he was getting some more than normal engine wear while using T6. And suggested using an ester based oil.
Tell him to run some xW-30 and see how the wear looks, lol.

Not sure if an oil with more POA would be as protective as a a higher POE content would.
I'd be looking for an oil with a comparatively high HTHS viscosity in xW-40.
 

Roland1

Thread starter
Joined
Jan 4, 2018
Messages
21
Location
Alberta Canada
Tell him to run some xW-30 and see how the wear looks, lol.


I'd be looking for an oil with a comparatively high HTHS viscosity in xW-40.
I do believe he's running Motul 7100 now? Sure we have the same engine in a sense. Mine is just a stock 599cc Honda. His is a full out built racing engine.

Bang for the buck it's still a 5 gallon/19L bucket of hdeo when on sale, with some trade offs. Or potentially an M1 5w40 euro pcmo when on sale for 50% off.
 

Roland1

Thread starter
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Messages
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Location
Alberta Canada
10w40 Amsoil and Mobil 1 4T is what I ran in my 750 GSXR for years. Always started once a month even in the winter months of storage without any problems.
Thing is the oil is being drained after every race weekend. And these are sprint races. Less than 2km a lap. 6-8 laps. One day of practice/qualifications and Sunday race day. Two or three races.

It almost seems ridiculous to me. An hour of engine run time and 50km per oil change.

I think I'll look into what endurance racers are doing. I bet one race is comparable to three race weekends for us.
 
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years ago when i called the amsoil hotline about their race oil not holding its viscosity...i was told to change it at 5hrs of motor time.
 
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Location
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VII shearing at high RPM is real.
Sounds like that janitor knew more about oil then most people ... 😄

Only someone who doesn't understand oil could be talked into a 5 hour
oil change interval... I'd like to see their face when they add up the
cost... on a machine cable of 1,500 hrs / 5 hrs = 300 oil changes at
$24.00 per change = $7,200 in Amsoil... so yea the janitor knew how to use
viscosity fear like a club to sell... probably got promoted to VP of marketing...
 
Last edited:

ZeeOSix

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Only someone who doesn't understand oil could be talked into a 5 hour
oil change interval... I'd like to see their face when they add up the
cost... on a machine cable of 1,500 hrs / 5 hrs = 300 oil changes at
$24.00 per change = $7,200 in Amsoil... so yea the janitor knew how to use
viscosity fear like a club to sell... probably got promoted to VP of marketing...
The context was 5 hrs of use on the race track at near redline 95% of the time ... not 5 hrs cruising around town. Guys that race change their oil pretty often.
 
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This is a game of protecting against a couple of things:
1. The oil throughout the usage doesn't drop below 2.9cst in HTHS, so as to maintain sufficient film strength for the geartrain*
2. The oil maintains cleanliness at the piston ringlands. This amounts to total time-in-use, TBN capacity, and gasoline-deposit solvency (ester and AN base oils.)

*BLS has had success with his RC45 running Mobil 1 5w30, which starts at a HTHS of 3.0, and shears down to 2.6. The RC45 Honda owner's manual permits 30 weights, and it makes sense that they designed a stronger geartrain to distribute the loads in order to achieve this. (In the same way as you would see in the differences in tooth loading and AW performance requirements between planetary automatic transmissions versus manual transmissions.) However, not all motorcycle manufacturers recommend 30 weights, and most fall back to the AW performance found in the 800ppm Phosphorous minimum of JASO T903:2011 (part of JASO MA/MB), along with its HTHS minimum of 2.9. In this regard check your owner's manual. It is worth noting that all of these specifications and goals are minimums (minimum AW performance and minimum film thickness.) Opting for higher film thickness will decrease wheel horsepower at the cost of decreased wear/risk of failure. Failures of topic are throwing a rod from lack of oil pressure and gear pitting.

Your products of topic:
The Mobil 1 0w-40 FS Euro
minimum virgin HTHS of >=3.5cst and (indirectly) post-shear of >=3.0 (ACEA A3/B4)
1000ppm phosphorus
roughly 7% Polyol Ester base oil, with balance of group III or PAO
Starting TBN of 10

The Rotella T6 5w-40
minimum virgin HTHS of >=4.0 and post-shear of >=3.5 (VDS 4.5)
1200ppm phosphorus
No ester base oil, entirely group III (likely GTL)
Starting TBN of 10

Lots of people do short usage intervals of 15w40 HDEO
minimum virgin HTHS of >4.0 and post-shear of >=3.7 (VDS 4.5)
1200ppm phosphorus (or otherwise meeting FZG geartrain performance of MTU 2.1 or 3.1)
No ester base oil, mix of group II and/or group III
Starting TBN of 10

The Mobil 1 FS Euro 0w-40 is not a bad choice for a race weekend in my book, but I also recognize that after the oil shears down (however fast that is), the film thickness will have to be well supported by the cooling system.
 
Last edited:
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Jun 11, 2013
Messages
171
Location
FL
First - forget about using any oil that is rated Energy/ Resource Conserving. Only use wet-clutch rated motorcycle oil JASO MA/ MA1/ MA2.

Then, know what kind of oil temperatures you are getting during usage, and match it to ambient temperature and race length. This can help decide when it's appropriate to go up a grade, or when it's more advantageous to blend in some higher viscosity oil of the same brand and type.

Your friend is correct, ester oils will protect your engine and transmission more reliably than the rest at the extreme usage limit, and will limit the amount of gear- clutch- and heat-related shear compared to other types of oils.

Motorcycle Ester Oils:

Bel-Ray EXS 4T
Fuchs Silkolene Pro 4
Maxima Maxum 4 Extra
Millers NanoDrive 4T
Motul 300V Factory Line 4T
Penrite Ten Tenths MC 4ST
Redline High Performance/ Racing Motorcycle Oil 4T
Torco T-4SR Super Sport

I'm willing to admit I do not know the entire universe of ester-based oils, so there may indeed be a few others that I have not mentioned.

Used to be some of the ester oil manufacturers would produce 100% ester, now most blend in some degree of poly alpha olefins (PAO) for hydrodynamic friction reduction, but also for cost-savings. Even so, they are still top shelf oils and many of the pros, especially in endurance racing, use them.

Not sure it was adequately answered, but in a racing application, use at least a 10W in whichever oil you select. Going to a 0W or 5W will likely result in more viscosity index improver, which is the main element in viscosity shearing. The top brands I've listed still use the best base oils, no need to worry about that like you would with an automotive application, unless... you're racing in cold weather (Alberta province?).

Also, the OP's requirement to find the most reasonably priced product, like it's only going to just be a little bit more than the Walmart/ Canadian Tyre sale price for regular motor oil: Sorry guy, the best costs a lot more - in US $, in the range of $18 - $30 per liter.

However, on the upside, these types of oils *might* last for more than one race weekend, but testing/ analysis would be required to prove that wear metals can still be in a tolerable range (but more $ for analysis).
 

Roland1

Thread starter
Joined
Jan 4, 2018
Messages
21
Location
Alberta Canada
This is a game of protecting against a couple of things:
1. The oil throughout the usage doesn't drop below 2.9cst in HTHS, so as to maintain sufficient film strength for the geartrain*
2. The oil maintains cleanliness at the piston ringlands. This amounts to total time-in-use, TBN capacity, and gasoline-deposit solvency (ester and AN base oils.)

*BLS has had success with his RC45 running Mobil 1 5w30, which starts at a HTHS of 3.0, and shears down to 2.6. The RC45 Honda owner's manual permits 30 weights, and it makes sense that they designed a stronger geartrain to distribute the loads in order to achieve this. (In the same way as you would see in the differences in tooth loading and AW performance requirements between planetary automatic transmissions versus manual transmissions.) However, not all motorcycle manufacturers recommend 30 weights, and most fall back to the AW performance found in the 800ppm Phosphorous minimum of JASO T903:2011 (part of JASO MA/MB), along with its HTHS minimum of 2.9. In this regard check your owner's manual. It is worth noting that all of these specifications and goals are minimums (minimum AW performance and minimum film thickness.) Opting for higher film thickness will decrease wheel horsepower at the cost of decreased wear/risk of failure. Failures of topic are throwing a rod from lack of oil pressure and gear pitting.

Your products of topic:
The Mobil 1 0w-40 FS Euro
minimum virgin HTHS of >=3.5cst and (indirectly) post-shear of >=3.0 (ACEA A3/B4)
1000ppm phosphorus
roughly 7% Polyol Ester base oil, with balance of group III or PAO
Starting TBN of 10

The Rotella T6 5w-40
minimum virgin HTHS of >=4.0 and post-shear of >=3.5 (VDS 4.5)
1200ppm phosphorus
No ester base oil, entirely group III (likely GTL)
Starting TBN of 10

Lots of people do short usage intervals of 15w40 HDEO
minimum virgin HTHS of >4.0 and post-shear of >=3.7 (VDS 4.5)
1200ppm phosphorus (or otherwise meeting FZG geartrain performance of MTU 2.1 or 3.1)
No ester base oil, mix of group II and/or group III
Starting TBN of 10

The Mobil 1 FS Euro 0w-40 is not a bad choice for a race weekend in my book, but I also recognize that after the oil shears down (however fast that is), the film thickness will have to be well supported by the cooling system.

This was very informative! Funny I just read the thread on the story behind BLS' RC45.

I have two 5L jugs of M1 FS 0W40 I just bought this week now on my oil shelf in the basement. Canadian Tire had M1 on sale for 45% off this week.

I won't get into it in this thread but choosing from my variety of M1 oil stash for my 2022 Hyundai smartstream 2.5T spec'd for 0W30 is taking up as much pondering time as choosing an oil for the race bike has.

I'll be trying that M1 euro full SAPS 0w40 in the race bike come spring.
 
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