A question about UOAs, ZDDP, and cats

[Robotaz]

So I am a big Redline fan, but I've recently become more educated on the ZDDP/catalytic converter issue from using oils that aren't API certified. So the obvious question is: what oils have the best UOAs that are API certified? I really don't care whether the catalytic converter works or not because I don't have inspections here, but I am worried that somehow the warranty issue might come back to haunt me if CELs start coming on or something. I'm using Redline 5W-20 in a 2009 Duratec 2.0 with 1,800 miles and a 2009 Mazda MZR 2.3 with about 6,000 miles on it. I am assuming that the best API-certified oil is probably going to be XL-7500. Any advice from the BITOG gurus would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

-Rob

 

[BuickGN]

I'm sure others will be along shortly to answer your question.

I just have a few points... I've run an oil with very high amounts of ZDDP since the car was new. It's at 78,000 miles now and no problems.

Second, don't put a whole lot of faith in UOAs for determining wear. Search around a little and you'll understand what I'm talking about. IMO, they're useful for a few things but wear rates are not one of them.

 

[Robotaz]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
I'm sure others will be along shortly to answer your question.

I just have a few points... I've run an oil with very high amounts of ZDDP since the car was new. It's at 78,000 miles now and no problems.

Second, don't put a whole lot of faith in UOAs for determining wear. Search around a little and you'll understand what I'm talking about. IMO, they're useful for a few things but wear rates are not one of them.


First off, HOLY [censored] your grand national has 602 HP?!?!?!! That is insane.

Anyway, did you worry at any point about the cat warranty? I don't even know how much one costs, but [censored], it can't be anything close to internal engine components+labor. I really, really want to stick with RL, but I don't want it to come back and bite me cuz of the cat. Neither car appears to burn a drop, and the NOACK is about 8 on this oil, so I really think that it should be OK, but I'm no guru.

 

[mechtech2]

Robotaz - I don't have any reason to think that modern oils will ever be a problem with your car.
Are you keeping it for over 300,000 miles?

 

[Bryanccfshr]

the vase overwhelming majority of vehicles on the road run API ILSAC oils for a lifetimewith no oil related issues. If you want to overspend on certain brands of oils or doing UOA's that is your perogative. Many of us exercise ours.

 

[Robotaz]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Robotaz - I don't have any reason to think that modern oils will ever be a problem with your car.
Are you keeping it for over 300,000 miles?


When you say modern I'm not sure what you mean because to me, modern means decreasing ZDDP levels. I want to use the RL with high ZDDP and no API certification. Do you mind elaborating just a little bit?

I will hopefully have the cars for a very long time. I'm moving towards wife/baby/house mode and away from cars. I will have them paid off in a year and want to forget about payments for at least 6-8 years.

 

[Robotaz]

Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
the vase overwhelming majority of vehicles on the road run API ILSAC oils for a lifetimewith no oil related issues. If you want to overspend on certain brands of oils or doing UOA's that is your perogative. Many of us exercise ours.


I'm wanting to run RL with no API rating, not oils with an API rating unless I have to. That's what the conversation is about, to me. I understand the reverse oil snob theory, that you speak of, and am not really concerned with the cost.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Current ILSAC certifications provide outstanding protection

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
I'm sure others will be along shortly to answer your question.

I just have a few points... I've run an oil with very high amounts of ZDDP since the car was new. It's at 78,000 miles now and no problems.

Second, don't put a whole lot of faith in UOAs for determining wear. Search around a little and you'll understand what I'm talking about. IMO, they're useful for a few things but wear rates are not one of them.


+1. My thoughts are if the engine doesn't burn oil the cat issues shouldn't be a problem. JMO

 

[sunfire]

Use Red Line's racing oils. They are not bound by API ZDDP levels. And have low NOACK which should help with cat contamination.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Originally Posted By: Robotaz
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
the vase overwhelming majority of vehicles on the road run API ILSAC oils for a lifetimewith no oil related issues. If you want to overspend on certain brands of oils or doing UOA's that is your perogative. Many of us exercise ours.


I'm wanting to run RL with no API rating, not oils with an API rating unless I have to. That's what the conversation is about, to me. I understand the reverse oil snob theory, that you speak of, and am not really concerned with the cost.


Didn't see your post before posting.
My opinion. You can run redline if you want and 99.99% of the time it will be OK. If you have an emmissions related issue you may be asked for recipts of oil changes so they can verify you used the required grades. If you prefer to run redline you may have to pay for emmissions related equipment "if" it fails. You need to make an educated decision. If you don't mind paying for redline paying for possible emmisions related failure far into the future should be no issue for you. If you have an internal engine failure the dealer may try to play that against you too. Most the warranty will be intact except if they desire to pursue it those parts affected by the oil and the emmissions equipment. . If you desire the warranty end of the contract to be kept up you can keep your end of the bargain(use the approved oils). Otherwise it is only ethical to assume that you are liable for the lubricated and emission parts.

Note that I am not all out pro ILSAC or anti redline. I plan on trying a non ILSAC oil in my 2008 jeep. But I am willing to take on the liability.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: Robotaz
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
the vase overwhelming majority of vehicles on the road run API ILSAC oils for a lifetimewith no oil related issues. If you want to overspend on certain brands of oils or doing UOA's that is your perogative. Many of us exercise ours.


I'm wanting to run RL with no API rating, not oils with an API rating unless I have to. That's what the conversation is about, to me. I understand the reverse oil snob theory, that you speak of, and am not really concerned with the cost.


I think it's a great idea to run a super oil like Redline from the beginning of the engine's life. No need to settle for mediocrity as long as you can afford the good stuff. I've never agreed with waiting until the warranty is up at 50K or 100K to start using the good stuff. The same people that say "what if you have an engine failure under warranty" are the same people preaching that an engine easily outlasts the body of the car on any oil.

I honestly don't think the ZDDP will cause any problems whatsoever. I know I'm only at 78,000 miles running a high ZDDP oil but this car is a ULEV car and any degredation in the catalytic convertor performance will immediately throw a check engine light.

Thinking about it, with Redline you're going to have less of it going through the PCV system and less getting past the rings. The ZDDP can't hurt the convertor if it never makes it there.

 

[Robotaz]

Originally Posted By: sunfire
Use Red Line's racing oils. They are not bound by API ZDDP levels. And have low NOACK which should help with cat contamination.


Either my original post made no sense at all, or you guys aren't reading everything that I said.

You say to use RL racing oil, which has almost double the phosphorus of the regular. I'm not wanting more, I'm wanting to know if the regular will harm the cat. If the consensus is that I could get myself into trouble harming the cat then I will switch to an API oil. If I need to do that, I am asking which is the best(which I know is a subjective opinion)? I'm wondering if maybe the best strategy would be to just drive it with RL until I notice any oil burn, which could be a very long time, and then back off the ZDDP oil and switch to API oils.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: Robotaz
Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
the vase overwhelming majority of vehicles on the road run API ILSAC oils for a lifetimewith no oil related issues. If you want to overspend on certain brands of oils or doing UOA's that is your perogative. Many of us exercise ours.


I'm wanting to run RL with no API rating, not oils with an API rating unless I have to. That's what the conversation is about, to me. I understand the reverse oil snob theory, that you speak of, and am not really concerned with the cost.


I think it's a great idea to run a super oil like Redline from the beginning of the engine's life. No need to settle for mediocrity as long as you can afford the good stuff. I've never agreed with waiting until the warranty is up at 50K or 100K to start using the good stuff. The same people that say "what if you have an engine failure under warranty" are the same people preaching that an engine easily outlasts the body of the car on any oil.

I honestly don't think the ZDDP will cause any problems whatsoever. I know I'm only at 78,000 miles running a high ZDDP oil but this car is a ULEV car and any degredation in the catalytic convertor performance will immediately throw a check engine light.

Thinking about it, with Redline you're going to have less of it going through the PCV system and less getting past the rings. The ZDDP can't hurt the convertor if it never makes it there.



I don't disagree but if an emmissions componenet or lubriccagted part fails during the warranty period regardless of the casued the oil used will be looked into. THe economy is getting tighter and regional warranty reps are tightening the purse strings.

 

[Robotaz]

Bryan and BuickGN, both of your responses make sense. I'm just going to have to make a tough decision and move on. Do you have opinions if I do move to the API certified oil? XL-7500?

 

[Robotaz]

And I'm also very curious if anyone has any information or wisdom regarding the duration of the "glass-like" layer formed between metals by high ZDDP levels. Does this layer wear down due to time or friction if you switch to a very low ZDDP oil?

 

[Bryanccfshr]

I think either will protect your engine above and beyond what the manufacturer requires. I think there are many OTC oils like PP and M! that you can also use for maximum ILSAC peace of mind. Redline is for maximum mechanical peace of mind. You can't really go wrong knowing te pros and cons of each decision.

 

[sunfire]

Originally Posted By: Robotaz
Originally Posted By: sunfire
Use Red Line's racing oils. They are not bound by API ZDDP levels. And have low NOACK which should help with cat contamination.


Either my original post made no sense at all, or you guys aren't reading everything that I said.

You say to use RL racing oil, which has almost double the phosphorus of the regular. I'm not wanting more, I'm wanting to know if the regular will harm the cat. If the consensus is that I could get myself into trouble harming the cat then I will switch to an API oil. If I need to do that, I am asking which is the best(which I know is a subjective opinion)? I'm wondering if maybe the best strategy would be to just drive it with RL until I notice any oil burn, which could be a very long time, and then back off the ZDDP oil and switch to API oils.


The API ZDDP limits are there for old and new engines that consume large amounts of oil that ultimately make its way into the cat. If your engine doesn't consume oil then use whatever you like.

 

[Robotaz]

Originally Posted By: Bryanccfshr
I think either will protect your engine above and beyond what the manufacturer requires. I think there are many OTC oils like PP and M! that you can also use for maximum ILSAC peace of mind. Redline is for maximum mechanical peace of mind. You can't really go wrong knowing te pros and cons of each decision.


Thanks for the feedback.

BTW, I had the most fun I've ever had at a Jeeper Creeper gathering in Farmington while visiting friends in Durango. Those granite dells, or whatever they are, are so awesome!

 

[Robotaz]

Originally Posted By: sunfire
Originally Posted By: Robotaz
Originally Posted By: sunfire
Use Red Line's racing oils. They are not bound by API ZDDP levels. And have low NOACK which should help with cat contamination.


Either my original post made no sense at all, or you guys aren't reading everything that I said.

You say to use RL racing oil, which has almost double the phosphorus of the regular. I'm not wanting more, I'm wanting to know if the regular will harm the cat. If the consensus is that I could get myself into trouble harming the cat then I will switch to an API oil. If I need to do that, I am asking which is the best(which I know is a subjective opinion)? I'm wondering if maybe the best strategy would be to just drive it with RL until I notice any oil burn, which could be a very long time, and then back off the ZDDP oil and switch to API oils.


The API ZDDP limits are there for old and new engines that consume large amounts of oil that ultimately make its way into the cat. If your engine doesn't consume oil then use whatever you like.


OK, so my '08 Civic Si, which burned oil, would be one that I would not want to run RL on, right?