9mm SXT/Ranger T-Series Ammo

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Originally Posted by Brigadier
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
I have seen both jacket and core separation in tests with 9BPLE and to be sure I am not a fan of SXT or the former black talon either. My point is there is better ammunition today--Gold Dot and HST, for example, that performs better and are the same price or cheaper than 9BPLE, and are more easily attainable.
Please show me where you can get 50 rd boxes of Gold Dots or HSTs, in 9mm, for under $15/box. And yes, they work better in jello, but bad guys aren't made of jello.
Bone Frog Gun Club puts Federal HST on sale regularly for $15-$17 per box in case quantities and there is plenty of data supporting that HST and Gold Dots perform very well against non-ballstic gelatin targets. You seem to be stuck on the notion that modern bullets are not better than 9BPLE ammunition and I acknowledge your opinion, but certainly do not agree with it.
 
Originally Posted by Brigadier


And yes, they work better in jello, but bad guys aren't made of jello.


You've mentioned that several times, and everyone in this section is aware of that.

It should be pointed out that, while the effect on a bullet fired into ballistic gelatin may not perfectly mirror the effect on a bullet fired into a person, that is not the purpose of ballistic gelatin.

Rather, ballistic gelatin is a consistent media for the comparison of different types of bullets. It's a close enough approximation that it can be used to show the strengths and weaknesses of different projectiles.
 
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
I have seen both jacket and core separation in tests with 9BPLE and to be sure I am not a fan of SXT or the former black talon either. My point is there is better ammunition today--Gold Dot and HST, for example, that performs better and are the same price or cheaper than 9BPLE, and are more easily attainable.
Please show me where you can get 50 rd boxes of Gold Dots or HSTs, in 9mm, for under $15/box. And yes, they work better in jello, but bad guys aren't made of jello.
Bone Frog Gun Club puts Federal HST on sale regularly for $15-$17 per box in case quantities and there is plenty of data supporting that HST and Gold Dots perform very well against non-ballstic gelatin targets. You seem to be stuck on the notion that modern bullets are not better than 9BPLE ammunition and I acknowledge your opinion, but certainly do not agree with it.


I never said that. For the price, most modern loads are not proportionally better. In fact, in some cases the SXT is not considered modern.
 
Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by Brigadier


And yes, they work better in jello, but bad guys aren't made of jello.


You've mentioned that several times, and everyone in this section is aware of that.

It should be pointed out that, while the effect on a bullet fired into ballistic gelatin may not perfectly mirror the effect on a bullet fired into a person, that is not the purpose of ballistic gelatin.

Rather, ballistic gelatin is a consistent media for the comparison of different types of bullets. It's a close enough approximation that it can be used to show the strengths and weaknesses of different projectiles.


I know the purpose of ballistic gelatin. It is a useful tool, when used properly. Yet too many people dismiss a load that has a stellar street record, which actually saves lives, because it's performance in gelatin does not fit their agenda. Remember the 1986 FBI shootout was not an ammunition failure, but a failure of tactics and marksmanship.

Bullets that were designed before the widespread use of gelatin yet have an excellent street record are now dismissed due to the gelatin performance. Seems like that is backwards.

Bulllets perform their best in gelatin. So a bullet that overexpands or fragments in gelatin will generally expand more and perform better in nonhomogeneous animals. Street shootings bear this out.

And my original point was that the SXT suffered jacket core separation on a raccoon. Thereby minimizing the wounding effect of the signature talons. So is it worth more $$$?
 
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
I have seen both jacket and core separation in tests with 9BPLE and to be sure I am not a fan of SXT or the former black talon either. My point is there is better ammunition today--Gold Dot and HST, for example, that performs better and are the same price or cheaper than 9BPLE, and are more easily attainable.
Please show me where you can get 50 rd boxes of Gold Dots or HSTs, in 9mm, for under $15/box. And yes, they work better in jello, but bad guys aren't made of jello.
Bone Frog Gun Club puts Federal HST on sale regularly for $15-$17 per box in case quantities and there is plenty of data supporting that HST and Gold Dots perform very well against non-ballstic gelatin targets. You seem to be stuck on the notion that modern bullets are not better than 9BPLE ammunition and I acknowledge your opinion, but certainly do not agree with it.
I never said that. For the price, most modern loads are not proportionally better. In fact, in some cases the SXT is not considered modern.
Well, then you are suggesting that it is (either intentionally or subliminally) since you keep comparing modern loads to it. If you shop around you can find modern ammunition (HST or Gold Dots) at the same price or only slightly more, so that part of the comparison is a null point.
 
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by Brigadier


And yes, they work better in jello, but bad guys aren't made of jello.


You've mentioned that several times, and everyone in this section is aware of that.

It should be pointed out that, while the effect on a bullet fired into ballistic gelatin may not perfectly mirror the effect on a bullet fired into a person, that is not the purpose of ballistic gelatin.

Rather, ballistic gelatin is a consistent media for the comparison of different types of bullets. It's a close enough approximation that it can be used to show the strengths and weaknesses of different projectiles.


I know the purpose of ballistic gelatin. It is a useful tool, when used properly. Yet too many people dismiss a load that has a stellar street record, which actually saves lives, because it's performance in gelatin does not fit their agenda. Remember the 1986 FBI shootout was not an ammunition failure, but a failure of tactics and marksmanship.

Bullets that were designed before the widespread use of gelatin yet have an excellent street record are now dismissed due to the gelatin performance. Seems like that is backwards.

Bulllets perform their best in gelatin. So a bullet that overexpands or fragments in gelatin will generally expand more and perform better in nonhomogeneous animals. Street shootings bear this out.

And my original point was that the SXT suffered jacket core separation on a raccoon. Thereby minimizing the wounding effect of the signature talons. So is it worth more $$$?


How do you reckon that is true?

Shooting with pistols at a range of over 25 yards, as the FBI agents did, and hitting the target isn't a failure of marksmanship. The agents hit the bad guys several times each.

The bad guys were still returning fire after being hit several times by .38SPL, .357 and 9mm from the agents.

The agents were in a gunfight, using pistols, against guys with rifles. Guys who were determined to win. They took several hits from the agents and kept fighting. One of them had been hit in the chest, and had over a liter of blood in his lung when he died. One of them was hit in the face and head with a .357, and kept fighting.

It took 12 rounds to bring down one of the bad guys. 12 hits. 12.

It took 6 rounds to bring down the other.

So, yeah, the tactics look suspect - getting in a gunfight with pistols v. rifles isn't the best way to start, but how would you change the tactics? The agents were in hot pursuit and the cars crashed, so they didn't pick the time or place, and the FBI didn't give them all rifles or shotguns. That's a leadership failure - not providing proper equipment to the agents.

And ammo that penetrates lungs, impacts the face and head, hits the bad guy 12 times, and doesn't stop the fight is absolutely an ammo failure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
 
The agent that fired the 'underpenetrating, underperforming' Silvertip fired 29 rounds at Mattix, only hit him once. And the FBI blamed the one bullet that found the target. If that doesn't trip your BS meter, I don't know what to tell ya.
 
Originally Posted by Brigadier
The agent that fired the 'underpenetrating, underperforming' Silvertip fired 29 rounds at Mattix, only hit him once. And the FBI blamed the one bullet that found the target. If that doesn't trip your BS meter, I don't know what to tell ya.


What about the other 17 bullets that impacted?

They didn't have much effect either...

And hitting one out of 29 times, when shooting a pistol against a covered, moving target at 25 yards in an active gunfight with a rifle still isn't an indictment of marksmanship.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
I have seen both jacket and core separation in tests with 9BPLE and to be sure I am not a fan of SXT or the former black talon either. My point is there is better ammunition today--Gold Dot and HST, for example, that performs better and are the same price or cheaper than 9BPLE, and are more easily attainable.
Please show me where you can get 50 rd boxes of Gold Dots or HSTs, in 9mm, for under $15/box. And yes, they work better in jello, but bad guys aren't made of jello.
Bone Frog Gun Club puts Federal HST on sale regularly for $15-$17 per box in case quantities and there is plenty of data supporting that HST and Gold Dots perform very well against non-ballstic gelatin targets. You seem to be stuck on the notion that modern bullets are not better than 9BPLE ammunition and I acknowledge your opinion, but certainly do not agree with it.

You have to have LE credentials to buy HST at BFGC. Vista is cracking down. It's another reason why I'm done with big name defensive ammo once my current stock is gone.
 
Originally Posted by hatt
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Brigadier
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
I have seen both jacket and core separation in tests with 9BPLE and to be sure I am not a fan of SXT or the former black talon either. My point is there is better ammunition today--Gold Dot and HST, for example, that performs better and are the same price or cheaper than 9BPLE, and are more easily attainable.
Please show me where you can get 50 rd boxes of Gold Dots or HSTs, in 9mm, for under $15/box. And yes, they work better in jello, but bad guys aren't made of jello.
Bone Frog Gun Club puts Federal HST on sale regularly for $15-$17 per box in case quantities and there is plenty of data supporting that HST and Gold Dots perform very well against non-ballstic gelatin targets. You seem to be stuck on the notion that modern bullets are not better than 9BPLE ammunition and I acknowledge your opinion, but certainly do not agree with it.
You have to have LE credentials to buy HST at BFGC. Vista is cracking down. It's another reason why I'm done with big name defensive ammo once my current stock is gone.
From the BFGC website - "Per manufacturer requirements, this product is available for purchase by LE and Qualified Customers Only". It is not difficult to become a qualified customer.
 
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
You have to have LE credentials to buy HST at BFGC. Vista is cracking down. It's another reason why I'm done with big name defensive ammo once my current stock is gone.
From the BFGC website - "Per manufacturer requirements, this product is available for purchase by LE and Qualified Customers Only". It is not difficult to become a qualified customer.
[/quote]


Meanwhile you can buy the cheaper, superior street performing 9BPLE/XM9001 all day long at Targetsports.com, Luckygunner.com, ammoman.com, ....but I understand. It comes in a boring black and white box, no pretty colors, and it doesn't have a tacticool name.
 
That's ridiculous.

I've still got several hundred rounds of Federal HST in my stash from a case I bought last year.

www.sgammo.com

For example, it was $460/ case of 1,000 for HST in .45 ACP. 9mm was slightly more.

No "qualification" necessary.
 
Originally Posted by Astro14
That's ridiculous. I've still got several hundred rounds of Federal HST in my stash from a case I bought last year. www.sgammo.com For example, it was $460/ case of 1,000 for HST in .45 ACP. 9mm was slightly more. No "qualification" necessary.
Note this is not a BFGC restriction this is a Vista Outdoors (parent company of Federal, CCI, Speer, etc.) restriction they placed on certain types/quantities of ammunition. I do not have any details as to why they (Vista) started restricting to LE, but they did at the end of 2018. So with all things firearm related, it will all depend on the "climate" in the coming year or so as to whether or not this becomes common place.
 
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by Astro14
That's ridiculous. I've still got several hundred rounds of Federal HST in my stash from a case I bought last year. www.sgammo.com For example, it was $460/ case of 1,000 for HST in .45 ACP. 9mm was slightly more. No "qualification" necessary.
Note this is not a BFGC restriction this is a Vista Outdoors (parent company of Federal, CCI, Speer, etc.) restriction they placed on certain types/quantities of ammunition. I do not have any details as to why they (Vista) started restricting to LE, but they did at the end of 2018. So with all things firearm related, it will all depend on the "climate" in the coming year or so as to whether or not this becomes common place.

Can you explain this statement?

Quote
It is not difficult to become a qualified customer.
 
Originally Posted by hatt
Can you explain this statement?
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
It is not difficult to become a qualified customer.
I have been a long time customer and simply provided my LTC to become qualified (they already had my D/L on file). YMMV!
 
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by hatt
Can you explain this statement?
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
It is not difficult to become a qualified customer.
I have been a long time customer and simply provided my LTC to become qualified (they already had my D/L on file). YMMV!

I decided to not worry about jumping through hoops and to roll my own using as many products as I can from people that do not hate me like Vista/etc does. Saves money and help pro gun business at the same time.
 
Originally Posted by hatt
I decided to not worry about jumping through hoops and to roll my own using as many products as I can from people that do not hate me like Vista/etc does. Saves money and help pro gun business at the same time.
I reload as well, but I do not use my loads as EDC ammunition, but all of my practice ammunition are my loads. Speer sells Gold Dot bullets which are the same as their loaded ammunition, but HST bullets are not sold separately, though you can find companies on the web selling pull downs. What bullet are you using for EDC that you load?
 
Originally Posted by 2015_PSD
Originally Posted by hatt
I decided to not worry about jumping through hoops and to roll my own using as many products as I can from people that do not hate me like Vista/etc does. Saves money and help pro gun business at the same time.
I reload as well, but I do not use my loads as EDC ammunition, but all of my practice ammunition are my loads. Speer sells Gold Dot bullets which are the same as their loaded ammunition, but HST bullets are not sold separately, though you can find companies on the web selling pull downs. What bullet are you using for EDC that you load?

I still have factory gold dots I bought years ago. When I finally run out in the next couple years I'll probably use the hollowpoints that rocky mountain reloading makes in new or once fired Starline cases. They shoot great and seem to do decent in gel from what I have seen posted. At around $100/1000 you can run one bullet for carry and practice. I've been on the anti 20 round boxes of defensive ammo for a $1/rd for years. It's a total scam but it was pretty easy to get around by ordering online. I'll run ball/cast before I buy that nonsense.
 
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