Gary I have felt your pain... H.D.'s are no fun at all and it's weird the things you can do without pain and the simple things you can't.
Feel better!
Feel better!
5w20 Problems
- Thread starter modularv8
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
I will be interested to hear the results of 5W-30 in your truck.
I just finished an OCI using QSUD 5w30 in my '06 F150 5.4l 3v and here are my observations and thoughts.
a) Engine sound over-all is much quieter. There wasn't any particular noises with 5w20, but with 5w30 it is a much quieter machine. Big sound level difference when in an enclosed space like a garage or in a drive thru.
b) Engine is smoother throughout rpm range. I used to slowly rev-up engine up to 2500 rpms because there used to be a slight shake around 1700 and 2200 rpms that is now gone with the 5w30.
c) Valvetrain rattle on the first start of the day with 5w20 is now gone with 5w30. I know some will say it is the filter, but this occured over 3 OCI's. To be fair, it started when I switched to full synthetic from MC 5w20 blend.
d) Engine takes longer to get to operating temperature.
e) No problems with VCT phaser operation or any unusual sounds. I didn't expect any since the VCT phaser operates on a feedback system to regulate oil pressure to it by the Cam Position Sensor and VCT Solenoid.
f) Now that winter weather is here (several below freezing nights), the truck seems (butt dyno) somewhat sluggish out of the gate until fully warmed up. Never really paid much attention to this attribute last winter, so hard to compare.
My thoughts:
I ran MC 5w20 since bought new (5k OCI), no problems until about 38k. I began to hear a slight rattle on acceleration. This would happen somewhere just past the 3k mile mark of my OCI. At one point, I could hear a loud disturbing clatter. It was determined that the noise was coming from the VCT Phaser due to the lack of sufficient oil pressure. GM/Ford and other OEMs have this problem when used oil loses its ability hydraulically actuate the VCT Phaser vanes. It is a known problem (ie, key elements of dexos).
In my experience from reading many UOAs, I have found many reports showing Motorcraft 5w20 shearing to about 11% (from 8.7 cSt to ~7.7cSt), the same goes for conventional 5w20's. HTHS 150C loses about half the percentage difference of the kinematic viscosity. So in this instance, ~ 5.5% viscosity loss. Here is the problem, OEMs have specified a 2.6 cSt minimum viscosity for HTHS 150C. Fresh oil can accomplish this but after some point in the OCI, the engine is now operating with oil only capable of 2.45 cSt.
Every industry study I have read and commentary from engineers have been that below 2.6 cSt (HTHS 150C) you begin to increase wear beyond normal. I have seen results where oil seals and their mating surface have an increase surface roughness (RA) with 5w20 because of the lower film. You can read concerns by Toyota saying "Toyota stated a concern that engine wear might well increase if HTHS viscosity dropped below the range of 2.3 to 2.4 mPa·s." This wear does happen and does not necessarily show up in UOAs. From everything I have read and the engine studies back at SWRI, I can say that the OEMs only concern themselves about durability to the 150k mark.
Despite all this, I do feel there is economy savings in the long haul with 5w20. And modular engines do seem to run best on 5w20 (especially during the winter), I just don't like an oil starting with an HTHS of 2.6 cSt. I can mix my own to achieve a targeted viscosity or go with M1 5w20 year round (HTHS 2.77 cSt).
Anyway, that is my story.
I will be interested to hear the results of 5W-30 in your truck.
I just finished an OCI using QSUD 5w30 in my '06 F150 5.4l 3v and here are my observations and thoughts.
a) Engine sound over-all is much quieter. There wasn't any particular noises with 5w20, but with 5w30 it is a much quieter machine. Big sound level difference when in an enclosed space like a garage or in a drive thru.
b) Engine is smoother throughout rpm range. I used to slowly rev-up engine up to 2500 rpms because there used to be a slight shake around 1700 and 2200 rpms that is now gone with the 5w30.
c) Valvetrain rattle on the first start of the day with 5w20 is now gone with 5w30. I know some will say it is the filter, but this occured over 3 OCI's. To be fair, it started when I switched to full synthetic from MC 5w20 blend.
d) Engine takes longer to get to operating temperature.
e) No problems with VCT phaser operation or any unusual sounds. I didn't expect any since the VCT phaser operates on a feedback system to regulate oil pressure to it by the Cam Position Sensor and VCT Solenoid.
f) Now that winter weather is here (several below freezing nights), the truck seems (butt dyno) somewhat sluggish out of the gate until fully warmed up. Never really paid much attention to this attribute last winter, so hard to compare.
My thoughts:
I ran MC 5w20 since bought new (5k OCI), no problems until about 38k. I began to hear a slight rattle on acceleration. This would happen somewhere just past the 3k mile mark of my OCI. At one point, I could hear a loud disturbing clatter. It was determined that the noise was coming from the VCT Phaser due to the lack of sufficient oil pressure. GM/Ford and other OEMs have this problem when used oil loses its ability hydraulically actuate the VCT Phaser vanes. It is a known problem (ie, key elements of dexos).
In my experience from reading many UOAs, I have found many reports showing Motorcraft 5w20 shearing to about 11% (from 8.7 cSt to ~7.7cSt), the same goes for conventional 5w20's. HTHS 150C loses about half the percentage difference of the kinematic viscosity. So in this instance, ~ 5.5% viscosity loss. Here is the problem, OEMs have specified a 2.6 cSt minimum viscosity for HTHS 150C. Fresh oil can accomplish this but after some point in the OCI, the engine is now operating with oil only capable of 2.45 cSt.
Every industry study I have read and commentary from engineers have been that below 2.6 cSt (HTHS 150C) you begin to increase wear beyond normal. I have seen results where oil seals and their mating surface have an increase surface roughness (RA) with 5w20 because of the lower film. You can read concerns by Toyota saying "Toyota stated a concern that engine wear might well increase if HTHS viscosity dropped below the range of 2.3 to 2.4 mPa·s." This wear does happen and does not necessarily show up in UOAs. From everything I have read and the engine studies back at SWRI, I can say that the OEMs only concern themselves about durability to the 150k mark.
Despite all this, I do feel there is economy savings in the long haul with 5w20. And modular engines do seem to run best on 5w20 (especially during the winter), I just don't like an oil starting with an HTHS of 2.6 cSt. I can mix my own to achieve a targeted viscosity or go with M1 5w20 year round (HTHS 2.77 cSt).
Anyway, that is my story.
Originally Posted By: modularv8
Anyone experience any problems using 5w20 vs 5w30?
I have '06 F150 5.4l 3v engine (45k miles). I have used 5w20 from the day I bought the truck new. In the past 3 oil changes, I have noticed the VCT phaser will begin to make a slight clacking sound on mild acceleration once I get past the 3k mile mark into the oci. It isn't anything horrible, but it is most noticeable when next to a wall (drive thru) and mild acceleration. I also notice it when revving up the engine to ~800 rpms. This occurs only when the oil is up to operating temperature and especially on very hot days.
From I have seen (UOA reports), 5w20 tends to shear down into the 7's cSt range. I guess this enough to cause the oil pressure to drop enough to cause the VCT phaser noise. BTW, I have used both Motorcraft blend and QS full synthetic 5w20 with the same result; although the QS was a huge improvement.
I will be going to 5w30 on the next oil change. Anyone experience any problems like this or others with 5w20?
My back-speced '98 5.4 modular rattles like crazy when first started cold with bulk 5W20.
This gradually disappears after a few minutes of easy driving.
I'm not sure where the noise is coming from, could be the VCT phasor. My gut tells me piston slap though.
Oil consumption is about 1Qt to 2K.
Forward specing to 5W30 cures (masks?) the problem, as does STP. It is high mileage @ 270 K miles. Just trying to make it to 300K.
Rickey.
Anyone experience any problems using 5w20 vs 5w30?
I have '06 F150 5.4l 3v engine (45k miles). I have used 5w20 from the day I bought the truck new. In the past 3 oil changes, I have noticed the VCT phaser will begin to make a slight clacking sound on mild acceleration once I get past the 3k mile mark into the oci. It isn't anything horrible, but it is most noticeable when next to a wall (drive thru) and mild acceleration. I also notice it when revving up the engine to ~800 rpms. This occurs only when the oil is up to operating temperature and especially on very hot days.
From I have seen (UOA reports), 5w20 tends to shear down into the 7's cSt range. I guess this enough to cause the oil pressure to drop enough to cause the VCT phaser noise. BTW, I have used both Motorcraft blend and QS full synthetic 5w20 with the same result; although the QS was a huge improvement.
I will be going to 5w30 on the next oil change. Anyone experience any problems like this or others with 5w20?
My back-speced '98 5.4 modular rattles like crazy when first started cold with bulk 5W20.
This gradually disappears after a few minutes of easy driving.
I'm not sure where the noise is coming from, could be the VCT phasor. My gut tells me piston slap though.
Oil consumption is about 1Qt to 2K.
Forward specing to 5W30 cures (masks?) the problem, as does STP. It is high mileage @ 270 K miles. Just trying to make it to 300K.
Rickey.
Im a ford only man, well minus my gm 4.3 in rinker, and ive used 5w20 since its been available, i have an 03 f150 4.6, i dont have this piston slap that i read about, and i even mix oil on the 4.6, 4qrts m1 5w20, 2quarts mobil clean 5k 5w20.
no vct in 98 5.4
If you noticed improvement with the QSUD then it may be lube related (I doubt) but it could. Try QSUD 5W30 it sure can't hurt your engine.
EDIT: What Rickey said about masking a problem is true, you may want to check your engine out mechanically.
EDIT: What Rickey said about masking a problem is true, you may want to check your engine out mechanically.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: modularv8
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
I will be interested to hear the results of 5W-30 in your truck.
I just finished an OCI using QSUD 5w30 in my '06 F150 5.4l 3v and here are my observations and thoughts.
a) Engine sound over-all is much quieter. There wasn't any particular noises with 5w20, but with 5w30 it is a much quieter machine. Big sound level difference when in an enclosed space like a garage or in a drive thru.
b) Engine is smoother throughout rpm range. I used to slowly rev-up engine up to 2500 rpms because there used to be a slight shake around 1700 and 2200 rpms that is now gone with the 5w30.
c) Valvetrain rattle on the first start of the day with 5w20 is now gone with 5w30. I know some will say it is the filter, but this occured over 3 OCI's. To be fair, it started when I switched to full synthetic from MC 5w20 blend.
d) Engine takes longer to get to operating temperature.
e) No problems with VCT phaser operation or any unusual sounds. I didn't expect any since the VCT phaser operates on a feedback system to regulate oil pressure to it by the Cam Position Sensor and VCT Solenoid.
f) Now that winter weather is here (several below freezing nights), the truck seems (butt dyno) somewhat sluggish out of the gate until fully warmed up. Never really paid much attention to this attribute last winter, so hard to compare.
My thoughts:
I ran MC 5w20 since bought new (5k OCI), no problems until about 38k. I began to hear a slight rattle on acceleration. This would happen somewhere just past the 3k mile mark of my OCI. At one point, I could hear a loud disturbing clatter. It was determined that the noise was coming from the VCT Phaser due to the lack of sufficient oil pressure. GM/Ford and other OEMs have this problem when used oil loses its ability hydraulically actuate the VCT Phaser vanes. It is a known problem (ie, key elements of dexos).
In my experience from reading many UOAs, I have found many reports showing Motorcraft 5w20 shearing to about 11% (from 8.7 cSt to ~7.7cSt), the same goes for conventional 5w20's. HTHS 150C loses about half the percentage difference of the kinematic viscosity. So in this instance, ~ 5.5% viscosity loss. Here is the problem, OEMs have specified a 2.6 cSt minimum viscosity for HTHS 150C. Fresh oil can accomplish this but after some point in the OCI, the engine is now operating with oil only capable of 2.45 cSt.
Every industry study I have read and commentary from engineers have been that below 2.6 cSt (HTHS 150C) you begin to increase wear beyond normal. I have seen results where oil seals and their mating surface have an increase surface roughness (RA) with 5w20 because of the lower film. You can read concerns by Toyota saying "Toyota stated a concern that engine wear might well increase if HTHS viscosity dropped below the range of 2.3 to 2.4 mPa·s." This wear does happen and does not necessarily show up in UOAs. From everything I have read and the engine studies back at SWRI, I can say that the OEMs only concern themselves about durability to the 150k mark.
Despite all this, I do feel there is economy savings in the long haul with 5w20. And modular engines do seem to run best on 5w20 (especially during the winter), I just don't like an oil starting with an HTHS of 2.6 cSt. I can mix my own to achieve a targeted viscosity or go with M1 5w20 year round (HTHS 2.77 cSt).
Anyway, that is my story.
Good stuff. Have you considered trying 0W-30?
Originally Posted By: Ben99GT
I will be interested to hear the results of 5W-30 in your truck.
I just finished an OCI using QSUD 5w30 in my '06 F150 5.4l 3v and here are my observations and thoughts.
a) Engine sound over-all is much quieter. There wasn't any particular noises with 5w20, but with 5w30 it is a much quieter machine. Big sound level difference when in an enclosed space like a garage or in a drive thru.
b) Engine is smoother throughout rpm range. I used to slowly rev-up engine up to 2500 rpms because there used to be a slight shake around 1700 and 2200 rpms that is now gone with the 5w30.
c) Valvetrain rattle on the first start of the day with 5w20 is now gone with 5w30. I know some will say it is the filter, but this occured over 3 OCI's. To be fair, it started when I switched to full synthetic from MC 5w20 blend.
d) Engine takes longer to get to operating temperature.
e) No problems with VCT phaser operation or any unusual sounds. I didn't expect any since the VCT phaser operates on a feedback system to regulate oil pressure to it by the Cam Position Sensor and VCT Solenoid.
f) Now that winter weather is here (several below freezing nights), the truck seems (butt dyno) somewhat sluggish out of the gate until fully warmed up. Never really paid much attention to this attribute last winter, so hard to compare.
My thoughts:
I ran MC 5w20 since bought new (5k OCI), no problems until about 38k. I began to hear a slight rattle on acceleration. This would happen somewhere just past the 3k mile mark of my OCI. At one point, I could hear a loud disturbing clatter. It was determined that the noise was coming from the VCT Phaser due to the lack of sufficient oil pressure. GM/Ford and other OEMs have this problem when used oil loses its ability hydraulically actuate the VCT Phaser vanes. It is a known problem (ie, key elements of dexos).
In my experience from reading many UOAs, I have found many reports showing Motorcraft 5w20 shearing to about 11% (from 8.7 cSt to ~7.7cSt), the same goes for conventional 5w20's. HTHS 150C loses about half the percentage difference of the kinematic viscosity. So in this instance, ~ 5.5% viscosity loss. Here is the problem, OEMs have specified a 2.6 cSt minimum viscosity for HTHS 150C. Fresh oil can accomplish this but after some point in the OCI, the engine is now operating with oil only capable of 2.45 cSt.
Every industry study I have read and commentary from engineers have been that below 2.6 cSt (HTHS 150C) you begin to increase wear beyond normal. I have seen results where oil seals and their mating surface have an increase surface roughness (RA) with 5w20 because of the lower film. You can read concerns by Toyota saying "Toyota stated a concern that engine wear might well increase if HTHS viscosity dropped below the range of 2.3 to 2.4 mPa·s." This wear does happen and does not necessarily show up in UOAs. From everything I have read and the engine studies back at SWRI, I can say that the OEMs only concern themselves about durability to the 150k mark.
Despite all this, I do feel there is economy savings in the long haul with 5w20. And modular engines do seem to run best on 5w20 (especially during the winter), I just don't like an oil starting with an HTHS of 2.6 cSt. I can mix my own to achieve a targeted viscosity or go with M1 5w20 year round (HTHS 2.77 cSt).
Anyway, that is my story.
Good stuff. Have you considered trying 0W-30?
Originally Posted By: chubbs1
If you noticed improvement with the QSUD then it may be lube related (I doubt) but it could. Try QSUD 5W30 it sure can't hurt your engine.
EDIT: What Rickey said about masking a problem is true, you may want to check your engine out mechanically.
No mechanical problem with my truck. MC 5w20 sheared down to a point where there wasn't adequate oil pressure to operate the VCT phaser without clattering. Confirmed by Ford, a known issue by Ford and other OEMs. I ran QSUD 5w20 for 5k miles with no problem. I then ran QSUD 5w30 to see what would happen, which is why I am updating this thread from this past July.
I like 5w20 in my truck. I have been a proponent for 5w20 until it started to have problems. I just don't like 5w20 with HTHS 2.6 cSt, when every study shows you can achieve every benefit essentially the same with a 20 wt up at 2.9 cSt and stay from possible increase wear from HTHS viscosity of less than 2.6 cSt which occurs when fresh oil of HTHS 2.6 cSt shears.
If you noticed improvement with the QSUD then it may be lube related (I doubt) but it could. Try QSUD 5W30 it sure can't hurt your engine.
EDIT: What Rickey said about masking a problem is true, you may want to check your engine out mechanically.
No mechanical problem with my truck. MC 5w20 sheared down to a point where there wasn't adequate oil pressure to operate the VCT phaser without clattering. Confirmed by Ford, a known issue by Ford and other OEMs. I ran QSUD 5w20 for 5k miles with no problem. I then ran QSUD 5w30 to see what would happen, which is why I am updating this thread from this past July.
I like 5w20 in my truck. I have been a proponent for 5w20 until it started to have problems. I just don't like 5w20 with HTHS 2.6 cSt, when every study shows you can achieve every benefit essentially the same with a 20 wt up at 2.9 cSt and stay from possible increase wear from HTHS viscosity of less than 2.6 cSt which occurs when fresh oil of HTHS 2.6 cSt shears.
5W20 is awful stuff. Cylinder scoring, overheating, weak ad-packages. Noisy, ruined valve trains. Hey, what good is 5W20 and a faster flow in cold weather if your oil has the lubricating qualities of your morning coffee?
Originally Posted By: Concours14
5W20 is awful stuff. Cylinder scoring, overheating, weak ad-packages. Noisy, ruined valve trains. Hey, what good is 5W20 and a faster flow in cold weather if your oil has the lubricating qualities of your morning coffee?
care to share stories with more details then?
5W20 is awful stuff. Cylinder scoring, overheating, weak ad-packages. Noisy, ruined valve trains. Hey, what good is 5W20 and a faster flow in cold weather if your oil has the lubricating qualities of your morning coffee?
care to share stories with more details then?
Originally Posted By: Concours14
5W20 is awful stuff. Cylinder scoring, overheating, weak ad-packages. Noisy, ruined valve trains. Hey, what good is 5W20 and a faster flow in cold weather if your oil has the lubricating qualities of your morning coffee?
Probably still lubricates better than what you use unless you never turn off your engine
5W20 is awful stuff. Cylinder scoring, overheating, weak ad-packages. Noisy, ruined valve trains. Hey, what good is 5W20 and a faster flow in cold weather if your oil has the lubricating qualities of your morning coffee?
Probably still lubricates better than what you use unless you never turn off your engine
Originally Posted By: Lethal1ty17
Originally Posted By: Concours14
5W20 is awful stuff. Cylinder scoring, overheating, weak ad-packages. Noisy, ruined valve trains. Hey, what good is 5W20 and a faster flow in cold weather if your oil has the lubricating qualities of your morning coffee?
care to share stories with more details then?
Yes I'd love to see the reports myself.
Originally Posted By: Concours14
5W20 is awful stuff. Cylinder scoring, overheating, weak ad-packages. Noisy, ruined valve trains. Hey, what good is 5W20 and a faster flow in cold weather if your oil has the lubricating qualities of your morning coffee?
care to share stories with more details then?
Yes I'd love to see the reports myself.
my vehicles use5w20 i actually use a high 5w20 9.7cst so i believe i have the best of both worlds
Originally Posted By: Concours14
5W20 is awful stuff. Cylinder scoring, overheating, weak ad-packages. Noisy, ruined valve trains. Hey, what good is 5W20 and a faster flow in cold weather if your oil has the lubricating qualities of your morning coffee?
One thing about the internet, you can say anything and not have to answer for it.
5W20 is awful stuff. Cylinder scoring, overheating, weak ad-packages. Noisy, ruined valve trains. Hey, what good is 5W20 and a faster flow in cold weather if your oil has the lubricating qualities of your morning coffee?
One thing about the internet, you can say anything and not have to answer for it.
Originally Posted By: Lethal1ty17
Originally Posted By: Concours14
5W20 is awful stuff. Cylinder scoring, overheating, weak ad-packages. Noisy, ruined valve trains. Hey, what good is 5W20 and a faster flow in cold weather if your oil has the lubricating qualities of your morning coffee?
care to share stories with more details then?
I was kidding, kids, just kidding. Actually, when 5W20 came to the fore awhile back, that was typical of the remarks. I've been using 5W20 in Motorcraft, Clean 5000, Shell, Pennzoil, you name it and in a couple of really old cars to boot, one of them with 260,000 miles, a 1992 Mitsubishi that used exactly one quart every 4500 miles. I would buy 5 quarts, 4 for the OCI. When my 5th quart, the top-off quart was gone, I started making plans to change. I've been driving newer cars the last 5 years and the 5W20 serves well in those too, all of em four bangers. In this Elantra TouringSE, I changed at 2700 into Pennzoil Yellow bottle 5W20 down in Tampa in October and now, at 6000 miles in New England, it's gonna be 0W30 EP Mobil1 that I have in stash just to use up. But I'd be just as happy with 5W20 Dino and a Wix filter, too. Thin is in, baby.
One thing I will say for real that might run afoul of some sensibilities around here is that except for long OCI over 7500 miles in severe conditions, standard issue dino serves the same as a synthetic in newer cars, that is, DOHC applications that aren't particularly high performance. This little town I'm in is 4 miles at 30 miles an hour to the nearest interstate, so my conditions are quite easy on engine and oil, weather notwithstanding. The oils are so good these days, the engines so clean, I don't think we're generating a severe condition that requires expensive synthetics anymore. Good comeback on the remark though. Glad you peeps still call "[censored]".
Originally Posted By: Concours14
5W20 is awful stuff. Cylinder scoring, overheating, weak ad-packages. Noisy, ruined valve trains. Hey, what good is 5W20 and a faster flow in cold weather if your oil has the lubricating qualities of your morning coffee?
care to share stories with more details then?
I was kidding, kids, just kidding. Actually, when 5W20 came to the fore awhile back, that was typical of the remarks. I've been using 5W20 in Motorcraft, Clean 5000, Shell, Pennzoil, you name it and in a couple of really old cars to boot, one of them with 260,000 miles, a 1992 Mitsubishi that used exactly one quart every 4500 miles. I would buy 5 quarts, 4 for the OCI. When my 5th quart, the top-off quart was gone, I started making plans to change. I've been driving newer cars the last 5 years and the 5W20 serves well in those too, all of em four bangers. In this Elantra TouringSE, I changed at 2700 into Pennzoil Yellow bottle 5W20 down in Tampa in October and now, at 6000 miles in New England, it's gonna be 0W30 EP Mobil1 that I have in stash just to use up. But I'd be just as happy with 5W20 Dino and a Wix filter, too. Thin is in, baby.
One thing I will say for real that might run afoul of some sensibilities around here is that except for long OCI over 7500 miles in severe conditions, standard issue dino serves the same as a synthetic in newer cars, that is, DOHC applications that aren't particularly high performance. This little town I'm in is 4 miles at 30 miles an hour to the nearest interstate, so my conditions are quite easy on engine and oil, weather notwithstanding. The oils are so good these days, the engines so clean, I don't think we're generating a severe condition that requires expensive synthetics anymore. Good comeback on the remark though. Glad you peeps still call "[censored]".
modularv8,
Thank you for sharing your experience with us. Excellent presentation and what BITOG is/should be all about.
In this statement of yours:
Quote:
In my experience from reading many UOAs, I have found many reports showing Motorcraft 5w20 shearing to about 11% (from 8.7 cSt to ~7.7cSt), the same goes for conventional 5w20's....... Here is the problem, OEMs have specified a 2.6 cSt minimum viscosity for HTHS 150C. Fresh oil can accomplish this but after some point in the OCI, the engine is now operating with oil only capable of 2.45 cSt.
Every industry study I have read and commentary from engineers have been that below 2.6 cSt (HTHS 150C) you begin to increase wear beyond normal.
Is this increased wear applicable to all engines, or just those with VCT?
If all engines, then people running longer OCI's on 5W20 should maybe check their cSt, correct? Also, I wonder if the increased wear is offset by less cold start wear to the point it is insignificant.
Thanks again.
Thank you for sharing your experience with us. Excellent presentation and what BITOG is/should be all about.
In this statement of yours:
Quote:
In my experience from reading many UOAs, I have found many reports showing Motorcraft 5w20 shearing to about 11% (from 8.7 cSt to ~7.7cSt), the same goes for conventional 5w20's....... Here is the problem, OEMs have specified a 2.6 cSt minimum viscosity for HTHS 150C. Fresh oil can accomplish this but after some point in the OCI, the engine is now operating with oil only capable of 2.45 cSt.
Every industry study I have read and commentary from engineers have been that below 2.6 cSt (HTHS 150C) you begin to increase wear beyond normal.
Is this increased wear applicable to all engines, or just those with VCT?
If all engines, then people running longer OCI's on 5W20 should maybe check their cSt, correct? Also, I wonder if the increased wear is offset by less cold start wear to the point it is insignificant.
Thanks again.
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
modularv8,
Thank you for sharing your experience with us. Excellent presentation and what BITOG is/should be all about.
In this statement of yours:
Quote:
In my experience from reading many UOAs, I have found many reports showing Motorcraft 5w20 shearing to about 11% (from 8.7 cSt to ~7.7cSt), the same goes for conventional 5w20's....... Here is the problem, OEMs have specified a 2.6 cSt minimum viscosity for HTHS 150C. Fresh oil can accomplish this but after some point in the OCI, the engine is now operating with oil only capable of 2.45 cSt.
Every industry study I have read and commentary from engineers have been that below 2.6 cSt (HTHS 150C) you begin to increase wear beyond normal.
Is this increased wear applicable to all engines, or just those with VCT?
In general, not just VCT. But I am talking about engines not designed to operate on HTHSV below 2.6 cSt. Right now, I am not aware of any production vehicles specified to run on HTHSV below 2.6 cSt.
Quote:
If all engines, then people running longer OCI's on 5W20 should maybe check their cSt, correct? Also, I wonder if the increased wear is offset by less cold start wear to the point it is insignificant.
Thanks again.
Possibly, I don't know. But there are many reasons why an oil can enter the yellow and red zone. Fuel dilution and excessive shearing are the two main ones I can think of that will put an engine into these caution zones when starting from HTHSV of 2.6 cSt.
For those who are interested in what I am talking about, here are some sources.
HTHSV Piston Ring Wear and Fuel Savings Correlation
New Base Oils Pose New Challenges - Figure 4 (last page)
"The move from oils that have High Temperature High Shear Viscosities (HTHSV) of 3.5 mPa.s to oils with
a HTHSV of 2.9 mPa.s is not expected to have a major effect on engine durability for modern gasoline
engines. Indeed, some of these engines may well be running on 2.9 mPa.s oils in the USA or Japan.
Durability may well be of more concern when moving from oils with a HTHSV of 2.9 mPa.s to lower
values (e.g. to 2.6 mPa.s)."*
*Improved Fuel Efficiency by Lubricant Design : A Review
R.I. Taylor & R.C. Coy
"Toyota stated a concern that engine wear might well increase if HTHS viscosity dropped below the range of 2.3 to 2.4 mPa·s"**
**Is SAE 5W-5 in Our Future?
And there are others that report even higher possible levels (on the order of 30%***) of wear not visible by UOAs. Having said all that, engines specified by the OEM to run on 5w20 have been designed or tested to do so. However, the minimum HTHSV by any OEM is still 2.6 cSt. Does it make a difference when an oil shears into the 2.5 cSt and below range for HTHSV? Probably How much? I don't know, but I'd stay away from it. As far as the fuel economy benefit of 5w20, most can be gained with a 5w20 oil in the HTHSV range of 2.9 cSt and below. So a 5w20 at 2.8 cSt would be ideal, while staying out of possible trouble.
*** Optimum Viscosity Grade
By the way, I like the lower viscosity grades (5w20). Some engines are designed to need the extra flow and works great in the winter. I prefer a shear stable (synthetic) 5w20 oil with a minumum HTHSV of 2.75 cSt. Without having to mix my own oil, right now M1 5w20 looks to have the right formulation.
And as always, run what you like in your engine.
modularv8,
Thank you for sharing your experience with us. Excellent presentation and what BITOG is/should be all about.
In this statement of yours:
Quote:
In my experience from reading many UOAs, I have found many reports showing Motorcraft 5w20 shearing to about 11% (from 8.7 cSt to ~7.7cSt), the same goes for conventional 5w20's....... Here is the problem, OEMs have specified a 2.6 cSt minimum viscosity for HTHS 150C. Fresh oil can accomplish this but after some point in the OCI, the engine is now operating with oil only capable of 2.45 cSt.
Every industry study I have read and commentary from engineers have been that below 2.6 cSt (HTHS 150C) you begin to increase wear beyond normal.
Is this increased wear applicable to all engines, or just those with VCT?
In general, not just VCT. But I am talking about engines not designed to operate on HTHSV below 2.6 cSt. Right now, I am not aware of any production vehicles specified to run on HTHSV below 2.6 cSt.
Quote:
If all engines, then people running longer OCI's on 5W20 should maybe check their cSt, correct? Also, I wonder if the increased wear is offset by less cold start wear to the point it is insignificant.
Thanks again.
Possibly, I don't know. But there are many reasons why an oil can enter the yellow and red zone. Fuel dilution and excessive shearing are the two main ones I can think of that will put an engine into these caution zones when starting from HTHSV of 2.6 cSt.
For those who are interested in what I am talking about, here are some sources.
HTHSV Piston Ring Wear and Fuel Savings Correlation
New Base Oils Pose New Challenges - Figure 4 (last page)
"The move from oils that have High Temperature High Shear Viscosities (HTHSV) of 3.5 mPa.s to oils with
a HTHSV of 2.9 mPa.s is not expected to have a major effect on engine durability for modern gasoline
engines. Indeed, some of these engines may well be running on 2.9 mPa.s oils in the USA or Japan.
Durability may well be of more concern when moving from oils with a HTHSV of 2.9 mPa.s to lower
values (e.g. to 2.6 mPa.s)."*
*Improved Fuel Efficiency by Lubricant Design : A Review
R.I. Taylor & R.C. Coy
"Toyota stated a concern that engine wear might well increase if HTHS viscosity dropped below the range of 2.3 to 2.4 mPa·s"**
**Is SAE 5W-5 in Our Future?
And there are others that report even higher possible levels (on the order of 30%***) of wear not visible by UOAs. Having said all that, engines specified by the OEM to run on 5w20 have been designed or tested to do so. However, the minimum HTHSV by any OEM is still 2.6 cSt. Does it make a difference when an oil shears into the 2.5 cSt and below range for HTHSV? Probably How much? I don't know, but I'd stay away from it. As far as the fuel economy benefit of 5w20, most can be gained with a 5w20 oil in the HTHSV range of 2.9 cSt and below. So a 5w20 at 2.8 cSt would be ideal, while staying out of possible trouble.
*** Optimum Viscosity Grade
By the way, I like the lower viscosity grades (5w20). Some engines are designed to need the extra flow and works great in the winter. I prefer a shear stable (synthetic) 5w20 oil with a minumum HTHSV of 2.75 cSt. Without having to mix my own oil, right now M1 5w20 looks to have the right formulation.
And as always, run what you like in your engine.
Good work, modular8. Thank you for sharing.
I love Red Line 5W-20, which with its HTHS of 3.3, is the only acceptable 5w20 in my world.
I love Red Line 5W-20, which with its HTHS of 3.3, is the only acceptable 5w20 in my world.
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