5w20 Problems
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My engine manual and oil cap call for 5w20. In my technical manual it calls for various different weights based on ambient operating temperature.
Being a skeptic of the 5w20 weight and CAFE standards I ran 5w30, 0w30 and 10w30 in my engine it's whole life and got really good UOA's that were all the same pretty much from brand to brand as I experimented to find the best.
With over 192K miles (320K KM's) on the clock I decided to give 5w20 a try again and do a UOA so I could compare it to the same brand and other brands UOA's I have.
This was within the last month and we had been experiencing a heat wave of 90-100F days.
I ran 3 consecutive runs before doing a UOA to ensure the engine was "used to it" and when the numbers came back I was amazed. (See UOA section - RLI 5w20)
I had almost all 0's on the report for wear metals with exception of normal Iron levels. The additve package was also barely touched in my run.
This made me a believer in 5w20 oils and I think I will run this weight from now on even though my engine has many miles and could be slightly worn and the fact that it currently has a fuel dilution problem going on that I'm trying to pinpoint the cause.
Another supporting example for 5w20 is my dad's Windstar. It has over 300K KM's (240K miles) and has run on MotorCraft 5w20 (now anything 5w20) its whole life and it runs great and passes emission tests with flying colours. It doesn't burn or leak any oil too!
The previous owner towed a boat with it and was laxed when it came to maintenance so oil changes were pushed beyond the norm. and things like tune-ups and radiator flushes were only done when needed. We had to replace the rad because it was plugged with sludge and running hot. (But just so you know the oil didn't have an easy life)
I will be honest that it has Piston knocking on cold start up for the first few minutes on one of the cylinders but this I think is largely as a result that the engine was abused before we got it and not the oil used because all the other cylinders, bearings and pistons are fine.
Your call but that is proof enough to me that 5w20 is fine to use in engines that are designed for it.
Being a skeptic of the 5w20 weight and CAFE standards I ran 5w30, 0w30 and 10w30 in my engine it's whole life and got really good UOA's that were all the same pretty much from brand to brand as I experimented to find the best.
With over 192K miles (320K KM's) on the clock I decided to give 5w20 a try again and do a UOA so I could compare it to the same brand and other brands UOA's I have.
This was within the last month and we had been experiencing a heat wave of 90-100F days.
I ran 3 consecutive runs before doing a UOA to ensure the engine was "used to it" and when the numbers came back I was amazed. (See UOA section - RLI 5w20)
I had almost all 0's on the report for wear metals with exception of normal Iron levels. The additve package was also barely touched in my run.
This made me a believer in 5w20 oils and I think I will run this weight from now on even though my engine has many miles and could be slightly worn and the fact that it currently has a fuel dilution problem going on that I'm trying to pinpoint the cause.
Another supporting example for 5w20 is my dad's Windstar. It has over 300K KM's (240K miles) and has run on MotorCraft 5w20 (now anything 5w20) its whole life and it runs great and passes emission tests with flying colours. It doesn't burn or leak any oil too!
The previous owner towed a boat with it and was laxed when it came to maintenance so oil changes were pushed beyond the norm. and things like tune-ups and radiator flushes were only done when needed. We had to replace the rad because it was plugged with sludge and running hot. (But just so you know the oil didn't have an easy life)
I will be honest that it has Piston knocking on cold start up for the first few minutes on one of the cylinders but this I think is largely as a result that the engine was abused before we got it and not the oil used because all the other cylinders, bearings and pistons are fine.
Your call but that is proof enough to me that 5w20 is fine to use in engines that are designed for it.
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We are bringing in disparate engines in statistically invalid quantities to the argument and generalizing to no end: modular 8 2v, modular 8 3v, some dinky Korean copycat, etc. Just kidding, Kia Sedona beats all of them in shuttle business in this area. My practical knowledge is limited to the Land of Panther, have zero experience in heavy duty outside of that domain. No one paid attention to the fact that Ford had to increase the oil sump capacity when they switched to 5w20. Which is a good thing on its own.
Just a quick note re. motors designed for 5-20
, Honda spec in Europe is 5-30 in US 5-20. So what oil is Honda set up for?? Both??
Originally Posted By: StevieC
My engine manual and oil cap call for 5w20. In my technical manual it calls for various different weights based on ambient operating temperature.
Being a skeptic of the 5w20 weight and CAFE standards I ran 5w30, 0w30 and 10w30 in my engine it's whole life and got really good UOA's that were all the same pretty much from brand to brand as I experimented to find the best.
With over 192K miles (320K KM's) on the clock I decided to give 5w20 a try again and do a UOA so I could compare it to the same brand and other brands UOA's I have.
This was within the last month and we had been experiencing a heat wave of 90-100F days.
I ran 3 consecutive runs before doing a UOA to ensure the engine was "used to it" and when the numbers came back I was amazed. (See UOA section - RLI 5w20)
I had almost all 0's on the report for wear metals with exception of normal Iron levels. The additve package was also barely touched in my run.
This made me a believer in 5w20 oils and I think I will run this weight from now on even though my engine has many miles and could be slightly worn and the fact that it currently has a fuel dilution problem going on that I'm trying to pinpoint the cause.
Another supporting example for 5w20 is my dad's Windstar. It has over 300K KM's (240K miles) and has run on MotorCraft 5w20 (now anything 5w20) its whole life and it runs great and passes emission tests with flying colours. It doesn't burn or leak any oil too!
The previous owner towed a boat with it and was laxed when it came to maintenance so oil changes were pushed beyond the norm. and things like tune-ups and radiator flushes were only done when needed. We had to replace the rad because it was plugged with sludge and running hot. (But just so you know the oil didn't have an easy life)
I will be honest that it has Piston knocking on cold start up for the first few minutes on one of the cylinders but this I think is largely as a result that the engine was abused before we got it and not the oil used because all the other cylinders, bearings and pistons are fine.
Your call but that is proof enough to me that 5w20 is fine to use in engines that are designed for it.
Originally Posted By: StevieC
My engine manual and oil cap call for 5w20. In my technical manual it calls for various different weights based on ambient operating temperature.
Being a skeptic of the 5w20 weight and CAFE standards I ran 5w30, 0w30 and 10w30 in my engine it's whole life and got really good UOA's that were all the same pretty much from brand to brand as I experimented to find the best.
With over 192K miles (320K KM's) on the clock I decided to give 5w20 a try again and do a UOA so I could compare it to the same brand and other brands UOA's I have.
This was within the last month and we had been experiencing a heat wave of 90-100F days.
I ran 3 consecutive runs before doing a UOA to ensure the engine was "used to it" and when the numbers came back I was amazed. (See UOA section - RLI 5w20)
I had almost all 0's on the report for wear metals with exception of normal Iron levels. The additve package was also barely touched in my run.
This made me a believer in 5w20 oils and I think I will run this weight from now on even though my engine has many miles and could be slightly worn and the fact that it currently has a fuel dilution problem going on that I'm trying to pinpoint the cause.
Another supporting example for 5w20 is my dad's Windstar. It has over 300K KM's (240K miles) and has run on MotorCraft 5w20 (now anything 5w20) its whole life and it runs great and passes emission tests with flying colours. It doesn't burn or leak any oil too!
The previous owner towed a boat with it and was laxed when it came to maintenance so oil changes were pushed beyond the norm. and things like tune-ups and radiator flushes were only done when needed. We had to replace the rad because it was plugged with sludge and running hot. (But just so you know the oil didn't have an easy life)
I will be honest that it has Piston knocking on cold start up for the first few minutes on one of the cylinders but this I think is largely as a result that the engine was abused before we got it and not the oil used because all the other cylinders, bearings and pistons are fine.
Your call but that is proof enough to me that 5w20 is fine to use in engines that are designed for it.
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Just a quick note re. motors designed for 5-20 confused, Honda spec in Europe is 5-30 in US 5-20. So what oil is Honda set up for?? Both??
What's likely to be available, maybe? Europe is the land of (mostly) 5/10w-40 if our limited view has any validity.
Just a quick note re. motors designed for 5-20 confused, Honda spec in Europe is 5-30 in US 5-20. So what oil is Honda set up for?? Both??
What's likely to be available, maybe? Europe is the land of (mostly) 5/10w-40 if our limited view has any validity.
I see three possible solutions without going to a 5W-30 although using a 5W-30 in a Texas summer is not the worst thing you could do.
Use a cheap 5W-20 dino and change the oil when the noise appears - nominally at 3,000 miles.
Try a slightly heavier 20wt synthetic with a HTHS vis of 2.7 cP or higher such as PU 5W-20.
Try a different oil chemistry. Toyota's 0W-20 contains a boat load of Moly, that might work.
Use a cheap 5W-20 dino and change the oil when the noise appears - nominally at 3,000 miles.
Try a slightly heavier 20wt synthetic with a HTHS vis of 2.7 cP or higher such as PU 5W-20.
Try a different oil chemistry. Toyota's 0W-20 contains a boat load of Moly, that might work.
Sure. Run a 5-30 instead.
Just be aware that 5-20s are very well built, and the 5-30 will shear more.
[This means nothing if it fixes your problem.]
Just be aware that 5-20s are very well built, and the 5-30 will shear more.
[This means nothing if it fixes your problem.]
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If it's a viscosity related issue, the 5w-30 will just mean a longer OCI if the oil is changed at the onset of the noise. Not a bad coping technique, I guess.
..but it does throw out any mandate for a 20 grade ..that, iirc, was some topic of high merit for the OP at one time in BITOG history.
..but getting back to a fundamental point here. One of our members who works for BP has observed their fleet of F350 with 5.4 engines live extremely long lives on nothing but 5w-20. So don't confuse the taxi fleet being cheap and maybe having to service multiple platforms as any indication that the 5w-20 was not up to the task. The fleet operator had other considerations or just plain intractable beliefs.
..but it does throw out any mandate for a 20 grade ..that, iirc, was some topic of high merit for the OP at one time in BITOG history.
..but getting back to a fundamental point here. One of our members who works for BP has observed their fleet of F350 with 5.4 engines live extremely long lives on nothing but 5w-20. So don't confuse the taxi fleet being cheap and maybe having to service multiple platforms as any indication that the 5w-20 was not up to the task. The fleet operator had other considerations or just plain intractable beliefs.
Cam phaser noise is generally harmless on the 3V. Annoying, maybe, and I would argue that it's a problem that should be in the past after all this time, regardless of the recommended oil viscosity.
As to viscosity, the 3V modular engine will run with a variety of grades. Which one is optimal? Ford contends 5W20 and that's backed up by millions, perhaps billions, of miles in test and day to day use. Who among us has the engineering data and testing chops to challenge that with anything more than an opinion? Are there any comprehensive tests out there that do? As has been repeated ad nauseum on BITOG, where are the reports of massive numbers of engine failures due to 5W20? From Ford, or anybody? This discussion often boils down to what makes the owners feel good and then an argument is crafted around that.
Many modular engine recommended (here or overseas) for a high viscosity oil are not VVT. Viscosity effects VVT operation, to a degree that is unknown to me and many of us here.
I think it's a mistake to dismiss 5W20 as "only" a product of CAFE and therefore not as good. They are by nature very robust oils.
As to viscosity, the 3V modular engine will run with a variety of grades. Which one is optimal? Ford contends 5W20 and that's backed up by millions, perhaps billions, of miles in test and day to day use. Who among us has the engineering data and testing chops to challenge that with anything more than an opinion? Are there any comprehensive tests out there that do? As has been repeated ad nauseum on BITOG, where are the reports of massive numbers of engine failures due to 5W20? From Ford, or anybody? This discussion often boils down to what makes the owners feel good and then an argument is crafted around that.
Many modular engine recommended (here or overseas) for a high viscosity oil are not VVT. Viscosity effects VVT operation, to a degree that is unknown to me and many of us here.
I think it's a mistake to dismiss 5W20 as "only" a product of CAFE and therefore not as good. They are by nature very robust oils.
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
Just a quick note re. motors designed for 5-20
, Honda spec in Europe is 5-30 in US 5-20. So what oil is Honda set up for?? Both??
5w20 would do fine and 5w30 would as well. 5w20 might offer better fuel consumption and the same wear profile.
Mine is rated for 10w30 in Europe and other overseas countries with this engine.
Just a quick note re. motors designed for 5-20
5w20 would do fine and 5w30 would as well. 5w20 might offer better fuel consumption and the same wear profile.
Mine is rated for 10w30 in Europe and other overseas countries with this engine.
I did a quick-n-dirty research project to see what oils were recommended for the 3V VCT engines elsewhere in the world.
They are reasonably common in Australia, where they have been spec'ed for 10W30 since they debuted in 2003 (the Barra 220 V8). I also did a search of various oil companies and auto parts stores in Oz and could not find a single case of any 5W20 oils being available, even from some familiar names like Shell, Castrol and Mobil. 5W30, spec'ed for cat equipped cars and low SAPS apps, was the thinnest I could find. They are pushing the heavy stuff 15W40, 25W60, 20W-50, etc over there as if it were the magic elixir of the generation. 5W40 is considered "thin" and 5W/10W30 is the 5W20 of Oz, it would seem. I suppose the heavy oils gained favor due to the generally warm or hot weather there. Makes some sense... for them.
In western Europe, I couldn't find any place where the V8s were offered, but also could not find much 5W20 available. I saw that Ford trucks were available in some eastern European countries, like Russia, but I was not able to learn much. That place seems to be in a major state of confusion and I can't read cyrillic.
My conclusion is that I wouldn't read too much into the slightly heavier oils being recommended for Oz. FIrst off, the thinner viscosities are not generally available and the public mindset runs against that grain. Plus, with the climate, there is at least some justification for the use of a heavier oil. Much of the Ford modular V8 is manufactured in the USA and some parts are built in Oz and the engines assembled there. No doubt there was some USA/Oz collaboration on specs, but the American engineers would have to face the market facts there with regards to what's available. 5W/10W30 is a pretty mild jump and well within design parameters, especially in a warm/hot climate.
They are reasonably common in Australia, where they have been spec'ed for 10W30 since they debuted in 2003 (the Barra 220 V8). I also did a search of various oil companies and auto parts stores in Oz and could not find a single case of any 5W20 oils being available, even from some familiar names like Shell, Castrol and Mobil. 5W30, spec'ed for cat equipped cars and low SAPS apps, was the thinnest I could find. They are pushing the heavy stuff 15W40, 25W60, 20W-50, etc over there as if it were the magic elixir of the generation. 5W40 is considered "thin" and 5W/10W30 is the 5W20 of Oz, it would seem. I suppose the heavy oils gained favor due to the generally warm or hot weather there. Makes some sense... for them.
In western Europe, I couldn't find any place where the V8s were offered, but also could not find much 5W20 available. I saw that Ford trucks were available in some eastern European countries, like Russia, but I was not able to learn much. That place seems to be in a major state of confusion and I can't read cyrillic.
My conclusion is that I wouldn't read too much into the slightly heavier oils being recommended for Oz. FIrst off, the thinner viscosities are not generally available and the public mindset runs against that grain. Plus, with the climate, there is at least some justification for the use of a heavier oil. Much of the Ford modular V8 is manufactured in the USA and some parts are built in Oz and the engines assembled there. No doubt there was some USA/Oz collaboration on specs, but the American engineers would have to face the market facts there with regards to what's available. 5W/10W30 is a pretty mild jump and well within design parameters, especially in a warm/hot climate.
Thank you, Jim. It makes it more interesting. Melbourne winters have to be experienced to appreciate Texas, CA, FL and what not. Latitude wise we US South and Australian South are closer than most think although not identical of course. I guess, we need more kangaroos and parrots to qualify for full brotherhood. I lived in Melbourne for a while. Beautiful blooming flowers that grow faster and bigger than one can imagine in their spring that starts very early. How about South-South Africa?
To keep the debate going: they push 5W-20 here as if it were the magic elixir of the generation
That being sad I have an 11 hour run on my MC 5W-20 blend in a town car tomorrow. But that's a simple modular 8 2V with a 6 qt (5.7 litre) sump.
To keep the debate going: they push 5W-20 here as if it were the magic elixir of the generation
That being sad I have an 11 hour run on my MC 5W-20 blend in a town car tomorrow. But that's a simple modular 8 2V with a 6 qt (5.7 litre) sump.Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
I did a quick-n-dirty research project to see what oils were recommended for the 3V VCT engines elsewhere in the world.
They are reasonably common in Australia, where they have been spec'ed for 10W30 since they debuted in 2003 (the Barra 220 V8). I also did a search of various oil companies and auto parts stores in Oz and could not find a single case of any 5W20 oils being available, even from some familiar names like Shell, Castrol and Mobil. 5W30, spec'ed for cat equipped cars and low SAPS apps, was the thinnest I could find. They are pushing the heavy stuff 15W40, 25W60, 20W-50, etc over there as if it were the magic elixir of the generation. 5W40 is considered "thin" and 5W/10W30 is the 5W20 of Oz, it would seem. I suppose the heavy oils gained favor due to the generally warm or hot weather there. Makes some sense... for them.
In western Europe, I couldn't find any place where the V8s were offered, but also could not find much 5W20 available. I saw that Ford trucks were available in some eastern European countries, like Russia, but I was not able to learn much. That place seems to be in a major state of confusion and I can't read cyrillic.
My conclusion is that I wouldn't read too much into the slightly heavier oils being recommended for Oz. FIrst off, the thinner viscosities are not generally available and the public mindset runs against that grain. Plus, with the climate, there is at least some justification for the use of a heavier oil. Much of the Ford modular V8 is manufactured in the USA and some parts are built in Oz and the engines assembled there. No doubt there was some USA/Oz collaboration on specs, but the American engineers would have to face the market facts there with regards to what's available. 5W/10W30 is a pretty mild jump and well within design parameters, especially in a warm/hot climate.
Mustang is offered in England if you want to research the oil recommended. If you do the OCI would be nice to know as well.
I did a quick-n-dirty research project to see what oils were recommended for the 3V VCT engines elsewhere in the world.
They are reasonably common in Australia, where they have been spec'ed for 10W30 since they debuted in 2003 (the Barra 220 V8). I also did a search of various oil companies and auto parts stores in Oz and could not find a single case of any 5W20 oils being available, even from some familiar names like Shell, Castrol and Mobil. 5W30, spec'ed for cat equipped cars and low SAPS apps, was the thinnest I could find. They are pushing the heavy stuff 15W40, 25W60, 20W-50, etc over there as if it were the magic elixir of the generation. 5W40 is considered "thin" and 5W/10W30 is the 5W20 of Oz, it would seem. I suppose the heavy oils gained favor due to the generally warm or hot weather there. Makes some sense... for them.
In western Europe, I couldn't find any place where the V8s were offered, but also could not find much 5W20 available. I saw that Ford trucks were available in some eastern European countries, like Russia, but I was not able to learn much. That place seems to be in a major state of confusion and I can't read cyrillic.
My conclusion is that I wouldn't read too much into the slightly heavier oils being recommended for Oz. FIrst off, the thinner viscosities are not generally available and the public mindset runs against that grain. Plus, with the climate, there is at least some justification for the use of a heavier oil. Much of the Ford modular V8 is manufactured in the USA and some parts are built in Oz and the engines assembled there. No doubt there was some USA/Oz collaboration on specs, but the American engineers would have to face the market facts there with regards to what's available. 5W/10W30 is a pretty mild jump and well within design parameters, especially in a warm/hot climate.
Mustang is offered in England if you want to research the oil recommended. If you do the OCI would be nice to know as well.
Ford South America recommends 5w30 in all American made vehicles sold there. It's the only instance I know of where the vehicles are made in the U.S.A. then shipped elsewhere and the engine oil recommendation is not the same. The vehicles also carry the same name as in the U.S. For intance, here is the manual for the F150:
http://www.ford.cl/site/popup/ford_manual/manuales/Ford_F-150_Manual_del_Propietario.pdf
From everything I have researched and seen (that is available/published), there hasn't been any documented instance where 5w20 has had a statistically significant difference in wear relative to higher grades/HTHS viscosities.
I have found references in the literature regarding hydraulically actuated VCT/VVT systems being affected by insufficient oil pressure. This can cause mechanical noise (VCT phaser), but Ford specifically claims that it does not affect peformance or durability. Other technical articles claim VCT/VVT clatter can lead to premature wear/damage.
I have in the past been a strong proponent of 5w20 on BITOG. But I do believe that once a 20wt loses viscosity into the 7 cSt range, you exceed a threshold where these sort of problems start to creep in. I believe GM is aware of this problem and the solution is part of dexos1 (maintain hydraulic pressure). Not sure how losing HTHS viscosity below 2.6 cSt impacts longevity, but almost every study I have read claim it is the lower limit before significant wear begins.
Having said all that, Ford has gone out of their way to design their engines to run on 5w20 (high sump volumes, higher cooling capacity, pump volume/pressure, etc.).
In addition, I do fall into the severe service category. I do 5k oci with QS full synthetic 5w20 oil. Like I said, once I pass 3k miles I begin to hear VCT phaser noise upon slight acceleration. It doesn't do it at idle and it is very slight at accelerator tip in. I just don't like hearing any VCT phaser vane clacking in my engine.
Not trying to beat up 5w20, run what you want. The fact that Ford recommends 5w30 in the same exact engine/vehicle outside the USA just substantiates that there isn't any mechanical/egineering reason to run 5w20. With GF-5 increased fuel economy requirements, there isn't any loss by going to 5w30. And finally, the purpose of this post was to see if anyone else has any stories/issues to tell regarding their experience with 5w20.
http://www.ford.cl/site/popup/ford_manual/manuales/Ford_F-150_Manual_del_Propietario.pdf
From everything I have researched and seen (that is available/published), there hasn't been any documented instance where 5w20 has had a statistically significant difference in wear relative to higher grades/HTHS viscosities.
I have found references in the literature regarding hydraulically actuated VCT/VVT systems being affected by insufficient oil pressure. This can cause mechanical noise (VCT phaser), but Ford specifically claims that it does not affect peformance or durability. Other technical articles claim VCT/VVT clatter can lead to premature wear/damage.
I have in the past been a strong proponent of 5w20 on BITOG. But I do believe that once a 20wt loses viscosity into the 7 cSt range, you exceed a threshold where these sort of problems start to creep in. I believe GM is aware of this problem and the solution is part of dexos1 (maintain hydraulic pressure). Not sure how losing HTHS viscosity below 2.6 cSt impacts longevity, but almost every study I have read claim it is the lower limit before significant wear begins.
Having said all that, Ford has gone out of their way to design their engines to run on 5w20 (high sump volumes, higher cooling capacity, pump volume/pressure, etc.).
In addition, I do fall into the severe service category. I do 5k oci with QS full synthetic 5w20 oil. Like I said, once I pass 3k miles I begin to hear VCT phaser noise upon slight acceleration. It doesn't do it at idle and it is very slight at accelerator tip in. I just don't like hearing any VCT phaser vane clacking in my engine.
Not trying to beat up 5w20, run what you want. The fact that Ford recommends 5w30 in the same exact engine/vehicle outside the USA just substantiates that there isn't any mechanical/egineering reason to run 5w20. With GF-5 increased fuel economy requirements, there isn't any loss by going to 5w30. And finally, the purpose of this post was to see if anyone else has any stories/issues to tell regarding their experience with 5w20.
Originally Posted By: modularv8
Ford South America recommends 5w30 in all American made vehicles sold there. It's the only instance I know of where the vehicles are made in the U.S.A. then shipped elsewhere and the engine oil recommendation is not the same.
Ford Middle East and North Africa recommend 10W-30 weight oil for this region in it's entire gasoline lineup. Motorcraft 5W-20 is available, but only as a full synthetic.
Ford South America recommends 5w30 in all American made vehicles sold there. It's the only instance I know of where the vehicles are made in the U.S.A. then shipped elsewhere and the engine oil recommendation is not the same.
Ford Middle East and North Africa recommend 10W-30 weight oil for this region in it's entire gasoline lineup. Motorcraft 5W-20 is available, but only as a full synthetic.
"Not sure how losing HTHS viscosity below 2.6 cSt impacts longevity, but almost every study I have read claim itis the lower limit before significant wear begins".
Yes, if you are seeing oil temps approaching 150C, but that simply isn't the case with 20wt applications. When a mft'r spec's a 2.6 HTHS vis 20wt oil the safety margin is still huge.
HTHS vis is more than just a measure of viscosity at 150C, it's a more accurate measure of viscosity in an IC engine, period.
That's why fuel economy correlates with HTHS vis and not with the kinematic 100C vis spec.
But we're not talking about wear and fuel economy we're talking about a harmless but annoying VCT phaser noise once some miles accumulate on the oil and presumably when the oil is up to temperature. If that means you need to run a slightly heavier 20wt oil to eliminates the noise then that's what you have to do for your application.
Yes, if you are seeing oil temps approaching 150C, but that simply isn't the case with 20wt applications. When a mft'r spec's a 2.6 HTHS vis 20wt oil the safety margin is still huge.
HTHS vis is more than just a measure of viscosity at 150C, it's a more accurate measure of viscosity in an IC engine, period.
That's why fuel economy correlates with HTHS vis and not with the kinematic 100C vis spec.
But we're not talking about wear and fuel economy we're talking about a harmless but annoying VCT phaser noise once some miles accumulate on the oil and presumably when the oil is up to temperature. If that means you need to run a slightly heavier 20wt oil to eliminates the noise then that's what you have to do for your application.
I was just working my way into South America when I saw modularV8's submission. Overall, a lot of the countries there have diesel powered versions of the 3/4 tons with locally installed diesels (not PSDs), but not too many gas V8s The F150 is available there in gas power, in a few countries at least, as well as the 24V Mustang. Not sure about past models. I think we can surmise everything down there is 5W or 10W30 but Widman could give us a better picture. I do see 5W20 listed on his site in Bolivia but don't know how much it's used there.
I'd be willing to bet that the population of VCT modulars in the rest of the world combined is just a tiny fraction of what we have here. I don't feel out on a limb too much by assuming the vast, overwhelming majority of them worldwide are operating on 5W20.
I haven't experience low oil pressure in my '05 F-150, nor the notable phaser noise (it just turned 25K, tho) and thus far, at about 6.5K and just over a year on the current fill of RP 5W20, the oil pressure is within a pound or less of what it was with fresh oil. Not surprised since the last fill at 7.5K was 8.9 cSt when drained. I wonder what 7cSt would look like on my oil pressure gauge? Anyway, I'm going for 10K on this fill (probably change spring 2011) and then I'm going to try a load of 10W30 Rotella (11.9cSt, arrgh-arrgh), which I use for some of my farm equipment. I've been monitoring oil pressure, oil temperature and VCT operation on the 5W20 and will do so on the R-T. My main concern is VCT operation. I'm willing to sacrifice the oil if I see adverse effects but hope to run it out to at least 8K, which will take me into 2012, I would imagine. Most curious about winter ops.
My engine is pretty quiet, and has been since I bought it at 7K and it had MC 5W20 in it. It was unclear exactly how long it had been in the truck but it looked fresh and I ran it out 4K miles. Two loads of RP 5W20, a 9 cSt 20 grade oil (9.31 virgin sample).
I'd be willing to bet that the population of VCT modulars in the rest of the world combined is just a tiny fraction of what we have here. I don't feel out on a limb too much by assuming the vast, overwhelming majority of them worldwide are operating on 5W20.
I haven't experience low oil pressure in my '05 F-150, nor the notable phaser noise (it just turned 25K, tho) and thus far, at about 6.5K and just over a year on the current fill of RP 5W20, the oil pressure is within a pound or less of what it was with fresh oil. Not surprised since the last fill at 7.5K was 8.9 cSt when drained. I wonder what 7cSt would look like on my oil pressure gauge? Anyway, I'm going for 10K on this fill (probably change spring 2011) and then I'm going to try a load of 10W30 Rotella (11.9cSt, arrgh-arrgh), which I use for some of my farm equipment. I've been monitoring oil pressure, oil temperature and VCT operation on the 5W20 and will do so on the R-T. My main concern is VCT operation. I'm willing to sacrifice the oil if I see adverse effects but hope to run it out to at least 8K, which will take me into 2012, I would imagine. Most curious about winter ops.
My engine is pretty quiet, and has been since I bought it at 7K and it had MC 5W20 in it. It was unclear exactly how long it had been in the truck but it looked fresh and I ran it out 4K miles. Two loads of RP 5W20, a 9 cSt 20 grade oil (9.31 virgin sample).
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
"Yes, if you are seeing oil temps approaching 150C, but that simply isn't the case with 20wt applications. When a mft'r spec's a 2.6 HTHS vis 20wt oil the safety margin is still huge.
HTHS vis is more than just a measure of viscosity at 150C, it's a more accurate measure of viscosity in an IC engine, period.
That's why fuel economy correlates with HTHS vis and not with the kinematic 100C vis spec.
The HTHS concept was derived from actual conditions that occur within an engine. Sump temperature is just an "average" temperature or a heat balance after all inputs (combustion/friction heat) and outputs (cooling). There are components within an engine that operate at or near HTHS @ 150C. Around the piston, particularly the rings and the main bearings. What is interesting, is that HTHS 150C below 2.6 cSt leads to a decrease in fuel economy. It is the point where hydrodynamic fluid friction is overcome by friction within the engine.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
"But we're not talking about wear and fuel economy we're talking about a harmless but annoying VCT phaser noise once some miles accumulate on the oil and presumably when the oil is up to temperature. If that means you need to run a slightly heavier 20wt oil to eliminates the noise then that's what you have to do for your application.
Well, we were talking about VCT phaser noise that does lead to wear and damage. The VCT phaser sound is the internal vanes collapsing on themselves from lack of hydraulic pressure. Because most of these systems are based on the same principle, other manufacturers have experienced the same problem.
Since there have been customer complaints around this issue, I was wondering if anyone was experiencing this also. Ford seems to be leaning toward going away from 5w20 to 0w30 soon. Anyway 5w30 shears down into the 9 cSt range, it will be a 20 wt. about a month into the oci.
"Yes, if you are seeing oil temps approaching 150C, but that simply isn't the case with 20wt applications. When a mft'r spec's a 2.6 HTHS vis 20wt oil the safety margin is still huge.
HTHS vis is more than just a measure of viscosity at 150C, it's a more accurate measure of viscosity in an IC engine, period.
That's why fuel economy correlates with HTHS vis and not with the kinematic 100C vis spec.
The HTHS concept was derived from actual conditions that occur within an engine. Sump temperature is just an "average" temperature or a heat balance after all inputs (combustion/friction heat) and outputs (cooling). There are components within an engine that operate at or near HTHS @ 150C. Around the piston, particularly the rings and the main bearings. What is interesting, is that HTHS 150C below 2.6 cSt leads to a decrease in fuel economy. It is the point where hydrodynamic fluid friction is overcome by friction within the engine.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
"But we're not talking about wear and fuel economy we're talking about a harmless but annoying VCT phaser noise once some miles accumulate on the oil and presumably when the oil is up to temperature. If that means you need to run a slightly heavier 20wt oil to eliminates the noise then that's what you have to do for your application.
Well, we were talking about VCT phaser noise that does lead to wear and damage. The VCT phaser sound is the internal vanes collapsing on themselves from lack of hydraulic pressure. Because most of these systems are based on the same principle, other manufacturers have experienced the same problem.
Since there have been customer complaints around this issue, I was wondering if anyone was experiencing this also. Ford seems to be leaning toward going away from 5w20 to 0w30 soon. Anyway 5w30 shears down into the 9 cSt range, it will be a 20 wt. about a month into the oci.
OVERKILL
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I'll say it again: Try M1 0w40. It's a "light" 40-weight, and is severe overkill for this application, making it perfect IMHO
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