This thread sounds very familiar. However, I still have an unanswered question-
Where can I buy one of those butt dyno thingies?
Where can I buy one of those butt dyno thingies?
5W-20 people - explain this please:
- Thread starter Accord2005NJ
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Accord,
You really need to lose the grip you got on this subject.
You are one in several hundred thousand Accord owners. You are probably one in several hundred not using 5W20. Who cares? Guess what? Those other several hundred thousand Accord owners won't have their engines explode, burn up, blow up or even start making noise at 100k miles because of 5W20.
These engines are doing so well at 5k, 7k, and 10k on 5W20 (according to UOAs), that there is no telling how long these engines will last with good treatment and a good SM rated 5W20 changed regularly with a good filter.
You've beat this subject to death. The horse has been removed from the grounds. FWIW, Honda is NOT the only engine manufacturer pushing 5W20 in their engines. Guess what? Ford, yes Ford, has been pushing it in their Crown Vics for several years. #1 end user of Crown Vics in the US is police officers all across the country. Last I saw, Cops didn't treat their accelerators like there was an egg underneath.
If you wish to use 10W40, 20W50, or even SAE 90W oil in your now fantastic engine, please do so. Just post the VIN so I don't end up buying it in a few years.
You really need to lose the grip you got on this subject.
You are one in several hundred thousand Accord owners. You are probably one in several hundred not using 5W20. Who cares? Guess what? Those other several hundred thousand Accord owners won't have their engines explode, burn up, blow up or even start making noise at 100k miles because of 5W20.
These engines are doing so well at 5k, 7k, and 10k on 5W20 (according to UOAs), that there is no telling how long these engines will last with good treatment and a good SM rated 5W20 changed regularly with a good filter.
You've beat this subject to death. The horse has been removed from the grounds. FWIW, Honda is NOT the only engine manufacturer pushing 5W20 in their engines. Guess what? Ford, yes Ford, has been pushing it in their Crown Vics for several years. #1 end user of Crown Vics in the US is police officers all across the country. Last I saw, Cops didn't treat their accelerators like there was an egg underneath.
If you wish to use 10W40, 20W50, or even SAE 90W oil in your now fantastic engine, please do so. Just post the VIN so I don't end up buying it in a few years.
I'd try Kalecoauto.com They carry a lot of stuff like that.
Huh? Different software in the PCM and TCM doesn't mean that the internal mechanicals of the engines are different.quote:
Originally posted by Bill in Utah:
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME ENGINES!
(how many times must this be said?)
Engines today are controlled by computers and the computers are programmed for different areas and smog levels (Like CA gets different than other states).
Different injector maps and fuel require engines to run different.
They are NOT the same engines.
I think you can get in trouble for soliciting that kind of thing on the Internetquote:
Originally posted by GMorg:
This thread sounds very familiar. However, I still have an unanswered question-
Where can I buy one of those butt dyno thingies?
Why is 5W20 the sole suggestion, in the US, for engines where it is called for?
CAFE
Is 5W20 bad?
No.
Is 5W20 "best?"
Depends...
My take on it;
In other parts of the world, 5W20 is one of the choices given, based on temperature graphs.
Here is a graph from an Australian Miata Manual;
This tells me that 5W20 is just fine to use, but that a thicker oil has the ability to handle higher temps.
The same chart in my US 2006 Miata manual only shows the 5W20 choice, and shows it good up to 120F Why? CAFE
The reason that, here in the US, 5W20 is the only choice given, is that the regulations that allow a manufacturer to use 5W20 in the fuel economy test, state that the owners of the car have to use 5W20, and that the manufacturer must make it very clear that 5W20 is the oil to use in the car. Given a choice, most people are going to pick a thicker oil, and the manufacturer would no longer be allowed to use 5W20 in the fuel economy tests. They would have to use the thicker oil that everyone is actually putting in their cars.
CAFE
Is 5W20 bad?
No.
Is 5W20 "best?"
Depends...
My take on it;
In other parts of the world, 5W20 is one of the choices given, based on temperature graphs.
Here is a graph from an Australian Miata Manual;
This tells me that 5W20 is just fine to use, but that a thicker oil has the ability to handle higher temps.
The same chart in my US 2006 Miata manual only shows the 5W20 choice, and shows it good up to 120F Why? CAFE
The reason that, here in the US, 5W20 is the only choice given, is that the regulations that allow a manufacturer to use 5W20 in the fuel economy test, state that the owners of the car have to use 5W20, and that the manufacturer must make it very clear that 5W20 is the oil to use in the car. Given a choice, most people are going to pick a thicker oil, and the manufacturer would no longer be allowed to use 5W20 in the fuel economy tests. They would have to use the thicker oil that everyone is actually putting in their cars.
From the manual-page above, all Xw50s have the same upper temperature limit. All XW40s have the same upper limit. All Xw30s have the same upper limit.
However, the 5w20 is grouped with the 5w30 and therefore has the upper limit of the Xw30s which is higher than the other Xw20s.
Even on a chart that says that you can use nearly any oil grade above freezing and below 100F, we still have 5w20 as a "stand out". I think this grade is a part of some sort of conspiracy.
However, the 5w20 is grouped with the 5w30 and therefore has the upper limit of the Xw30s which is higher than the other Xw20s.
Even on a chart that says that you can use nearly any oil grade above freezing and below 100F, we still have 5w20 as a "stand out". I think this grade is a part of some sort of conspiracy.
It seems obvious that overseas, a broad range of oils are ALLOWED in cars that call for strictly 5w-20 here because there is the CAFE stipulation that mandates the cars be labeled with the same oil used in the tests. Common sense is that you could use that same application chart for domestic cars (engines are likely the same, imo) but, why would you? It seems 5w-20 is a great deal as far as "dino" oils go. It OUTPERFORMS other grades as far as cold flow, mpg, power, protection, OCI duration and cleanliness. Somene show mw where correct application of 5w-20 is outperformed as per UOA by it's thicker counterpart. I said before, a long time ago, that 5w-20 is best for short trippers. That is true. That does not means it's not best for other applications as well. I will be sitting this out though, I have a lot of Mobil 1 0w-30 to use.
BTW- if you are going to use 5w-30 in a 5w-20 car, be sure it is a very good quality, not out-of-date drum oil.
BTW- if you are going to use 5w-30 in a 5w-20 car, be sure it is a very good quality, not out-of-date drum oil.
I agree. I even go so far as to say, if you run a thicker oil, get a synthetic blend or better so the quality stays as good as with the 5W20.
Yeah! Like M-1 0-20 with VSOT added!
Man, that's livin!
Man, that's livin!
Why use an outdated Miata chart when you can use a current Honda chart from Japan, where there's no CAFE and the engine was designed.
Thooks - relax. We are talking here. You do not have to participate if you do not wish. For those of us who do want to discuss this we do not have to agree. After all if we all agreed on everything it would be a very boring world.
VaderSS - THANKS!
427Z06 - THANKS!
Ok, so can't we all agree that the only reason why 5-20 is recommended solely here is due to CAFE requirements? I will stipulate to the fact that 5-20 under normal conditions provides solid protection and best fuel economy, but not as good protection as lets say 0W-40?
Can we also agree that 5-20 can but does NOT have to be used?
Thx
VaderSS - THANKS!
427Z06 - THANKS!
Ok, so can't we all agree that the only reason why 5-20 is recommended solely here is due to CAFE requirements? I will stipulate to the fact that 5-20 under normal conditions provides solid protection and best fuel economy, but not as good protection as lets say 0W-40?
Can we also agree that 5-20 can but does NOT have to be used?
Thx
Think nondisclosure agreements. You're not going to get the answer you think you deserve. Live with it, Dude.
I'll try to......deep sigh 
NO.
BIG FAT NO!
No one is holding a gun to your head. Use what you want.
JHZR2
Staff member
Cant we have faith in chemistry to take up the slack of 'thickness' at the bearings for protection purposes???
Cant we accept that basestock vs. chemistry is a valid substitute either way?
Cant we accept that we see a lot of great 5w-20 UOAs, and some pretty loust 30 and 40wt UOAs?
JMH
Cant we accept that basestock vs. chemistry is a valid substitute either way?
Cant we accept that we see a lot of great 5w-20 UOAs, and some pretty loust 30 and 40wt UOAs?
JMH
Why do you think a thicker oil provides beter protection?
Please explain the advantage of thicker oil besides saying better protection.. What does this mean?
Please explain the advantage of thicker oil besides saying better protection.. What does this mean?
JHZR2
Staff member
Im making no such claims... but that is the basis of this entire thread... As accord said above, he wishes to have people accept that 5w-20 might be good, but not as good as 0w-40.
Chances are thats not because of the add pack...
Its because of the 'thickness' of the oil.
Im not saying either one in either way is right... Im saying that IF it actually is preferable to the engineers who designed the engine to have more viscosity at the bearings, there are things that the chemistry of the oils can do to make up for viscosity. Otherwise there would not be such 'light' oils allowed. Honda would not chance their reputation to wearouts at 100k miles, just to get CAFE credits that they dont really need... They are a technology-centric company as best as I can see, and technology includes the harnessing of surface chemistry and whatnot to make engineering tradeoffs that benefit something, or at least break even.
Otherwise, why not just go the cheap route and have all grp I 40+ wt. oils with API SA add packs?
JMH
Chances are thats not because of the add pack...
Its because of the 'thickness' of the oil.
Im not saying either one in either way is right... Im saying that IF it actually is preferable to the engineers who designed the engine to have more viscosity at the bearings, there are things that the chemistry of the oils can do to make up for viscosity. Otherwise there would not be such 'light' oils allowed. Honda would not chance their reputation to wearouts at 100k miles, just to get CAFE credits that they dont really need... They are a technology-centric company as best as I can see, and technology includes the harnessing of surface chemistry and whatnot to make engineering tradeoffs that benefit something, or at least break even.
Otherwise, why not just go the cheap route and have all grp I 40+ wt. oils with API SA add packs?
JMH
Exactly. We've been hearing this "heavy oils offer better protection" stuff for years. We just see no proof that's it's the case.
People drag out tables from all around the world to "prove" this, but all it does it show what's
recommended elsewhere in the world.
Then in this thread we had one post that talked about common base stock differences in oil outside the US versus our oils, but it was mostly ignored...
How about this simple argument.
5W20 is best if you do short trips, and/or you drive in a way where your oil never gets overly heated.
10W30 or thicker is better if you drive in such a way that your oil is often over 100C.
Thus, 5W20 is best for most drivers.
5W20 is best if you do short trips, and/or you drive in a way where your oil never gets overly heated.
10W30 or thicker is better if you drive in such a way that your oil is often over 100C.
Thus, 5W20 is best for most drivers.
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