The syn oil will be fine at double the dino intervall with equal or a bit less wear. It is a well proven fact. If I put the miles on my cars I would do syn because the difference in price would be worth not having to do the oil changes. But I do not do the miles so I use dino. IMO is is whatever turns you on.
3-5K synthetic oil vs. new conventional oil
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I like to change my oil right around the 5k mark. I run synthetic just so if I can't get it done right then, it gives me some "wiggle room" and can wait til 6 or 7k without harm and without worrying about it. So, in a way, I guess you could say that using syn is a "feel good" move for me.
Originally Posted By: hate2work
I like to change my oil right around the 5k mark. I run synthetic just so if I can't get it done right then, it gives me some "wiggle room" and can wait til 6 or 7k without harm and without worrying about it. So, in a way, I guess you could say that using syn is a "feel good" move for me.
Or 9k or 10K or 12K.
I like to change my oil right around the 5k mark. I run synthetic just so if I can't get it done right then, it gives me some "wiggle room" and can wait til 6 or 7k without harm and without worrying about it. So, in a way, I guess you could say that using syn is a "feel good" move for me.
Or 9k or 10K or 12K.
We need to assume a few things to seperate this comparison from all the other ones on this forum.
One premise is that you don't mind changing your oil. I don't mind. It's a stress-buster, lol. I have to tools and technique to do it as fast or as slow and easy as I desire. So, a DIY change no big deal.
Now, do I get the same warm-fuzzy from an oil change at a quick lube, not really. Kind of the same at the Audi dealer. I like the guys and everything, but definately don't want to go there bi-monthly! In the interst of strecthing oil changes out, because you don't want to DIY it or have to factor in the cost of labour, shure, go synth and go longer.
As an aside, changing the filter with every "1/2" length dino oil change is optional too, in case someone want to try to factor in that as an extra cost of dino. 10k on a filter is 10k. It does not matter if it all 10 on one change f synth or two changes of dino.
Ok, now we have that behind us. Let's assume a 2:1 cost as well. That's very realistic and accurate as well as making it easy to compare service lengths at a similar ratio.
Next we have wear, a wash. If anything I'd say less wear on two changes of dino, but it's debatable.
Cold-cranking, I already addressed as did the OP with the question of what oil is better, old synth or fresh dino. A wash? Debatable.
I would lean toward the conclusion that mpg and "feel" is better on that fresh oil too.
Service-ability is the final question, if you also consider the ultimate result as the target. I say you get a better result in a normal new engine if you chage dino at 2x the synth interval, all in all being the same cost. I base this partly on the common sense of physically draining out contaminates and refreshing the FMs (and visc for that matter). I also base this on the fact that some dino oils meet ACEA A1, which is equal to A5/A3 in many areas except a few where it performs at 80% of the capacity of the synth. Simply looking at the TBN of some dinos should tell you something, 9-12 is common. Do the simple math of two changes verses one, with the *same* starting TBN. Don't give me any of that "TBN retention" thing either.
So, simple answer. If you don't mind changing your own oil you will get a better result with dino for the same cost. Better deposit control, and probally better mpg, good cold performance and everything else. too.
One premise is that you don't mind changing your oil. I don't mind. It's a stress-buster, lol. I have to tools and technique to do it as fast or as slow and easy as I desire. So, a DIY change no big deal.
Now, do I get the same warm-fuzzy from an oil change at a quick lube, not really. Kind of the same at the Audi dealer. I like the guys and everything, but definately don't want to go there bi-monthly! In the interst of strecthing oil changes out, because you don't want to DIY it or have to factor in the cost of labour, shure, go synth and go longer.
As an aside, changing the filter with every "1/2" length dino oil change is optional too, in case someone want to try to factor in that as an extra cost of dino. 10k on a filter is 10k. It does not matter if it all 10 on one change f synth or two changes of dino.
Ok, now we have that behind us. Let's assume a 2:1 cost as well. That's very realistic and accurate as well as making it easy to compare service lengths at a similar ratio.
Next we have wear, a wash. If anything I'd say less wear on two changes of dino, but it's debatable.
Cold-cranking, I already addressed as did the OP with the question of what oil is better, old synth or fresh dino. A wash? Debatable.
I would lean toward the conclusion that mpg and "feel" is better on that fresh oil too.
Service-ability is the final question, if you also consider the ultimate result as the target. I say you get a better result in a normal new engine if you chage dino at 2x the synth interval, all in all being the same cost. I base this partly on the common sense of physically draining out contaminates and refreshing the FMs (and visc for that matter). I also base this on the fact that some dino oils meet ACEA A1, which is equal to A5/A3 in many areas except a few where it performs at 80% of the capacity of the synth. Simply looking at the TBN of some dinos should tell you something, 9-12 is common. Do the simple math of two changes verses one, with the *same* starting TBN. Don't give me any of that "TBN retention" thing either.
So, simple answer. If you don't mind changing your own oil you will get a better result with dino for the same cost. Better deposit control, and probally better mpg, good cold performance and everything else. too.
Originally Posted By: Steve S
Originally Posted By: hate2work
I like to change my oil right around the 5k mark. I run synthetic just so if I can't get it done right then, it gives me some "wiggle room" and can wait til 6 or 7k without harm and without worrying about it. So, in a way, I guess you could say that using syn is a "feel good" move for me.
Or 9k or 10K or 12K.
but then go back to the OPs point, the 12ks still have all those contaminants in the oil where with the 5k dino changes those contaminants are flushed more often may actually give you better results.
Originally Posted By: hate2work
I like to change my oil right around the 5k mark. I run synthetic just so if I can't get it done right then, it gives me some "wiggle room" and can wait til 6 or 7k without harm and without worrying about it. So, in a way, I guess you could say that using syn is a "feel good" move for me.
Or 9k or 10K or 12K.
but then go back to the OPs point, the 12ks still have all those contaminants in the oil where with the 5k dino changes those contaminants are flushed more often may actually give you better results.
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Quote:
but then go back to the OPs point, the 12ks still have all those contaminants in the oil where with the 5k dino changes those contaminants are flushed more often may actually give you better results.
The sensibility of a 12k OCI for most people is how much of their service is filled with hollow miles. Contaminants are usually in the form of insolubles ..which are generated most during warm up. This is what loads your filter most.
If you're doing on the high side of 10k, then you don't have the high contaminant creating conditions to foul things. You have a higher share of hollow miles.
but then go back to the OPs point, the 12ks still have all those contaminants in the oil where with the 5k dino changes those contaminants are flushed more often may actually give you better results.
The sensibility of a 12k OCI for most people is how much of their service is filled with hollow miles. Contaminants are usually in the form of insolubles ..which are generated most during warm up. This is what loads your filter most.
If you're doing on the high side of 10k, then you don't have the high contaminant creating conditions to foul things. You have a higher share of hollow miles.
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
We need to assume a few things .....
So, simple answer. If you don't mind changing your own oil you will get a better result with dino for the same cost. Better deposit control, and probally better mpg, good cold performance and everything else. too.
Deposit control? Possible.
Better MPG? Probably not (Syn advantage, IMHO)
Good cold performance (yes, but Syn definitly better. Syn also outperforms in the brutal heat easily! That wasn't mentioned)
Everything else? Too vague
We need to assume a few things .....
So, simple answer. If you don't mind changing your own oil you will get a better result with dino for the same cost. Better deposit control, and probally better mpg, good cold performance and everything else. too.
Deposit control? Possible.
Better MPG? Probably not (Syn advantage, IMHO)
Good cold performance (yes, but Syn definitly better. Syn also outperforms in the brutal heat easily! That wasn't mentioned)
Everything else? Too vague
Audi shame shame shame on you for a sensible post !! I will disagree with the MPG, I don't think you will gain any significant increase by using dino, synthetic, or even if you twist the cap off the oil bottle while sticking out your tongue. I have tried it on several vehicles, two hondas, and various other makes/models as well, I never once seen a mileage increase by using synthetic. The oil filter is also a great pointer, as has been said if you trust the filter with an extended synthetic run, there is no reason not to trust it on a regular dino run, and this very issue made me change my ways of always changing the oil filter when changing the oil using dino, now if I run out of on sale synthetic, I run dino, and run the oil filter two OCI's. The synthetic debate really gets even harder to justify when you bring in the 5w-20 that so many cars are now spec for, the 5w-20 dyno is an outstanding oil which I assume is one of the reasons why OCI's have been getting longer, and longer, also the engines have come a long way with roller rockers etc.
I bet all in all most people spend far more running a synthetic, because from reading, and like myself when I creep up on those double digit miles I'm getting ready for an oil change (for me it's creeping up on 15k with my Honda) so I normally change out around 12k or after, with a dyno I would be more apt to run to 7500 miles.
This is my first run of Castrol GC in awhile, and I have enough synthetic to run me a year or so, after that may stop chasing the synthetic rebates, on sale oils, clearance, but then what would be the point of life ?? hahaha still dyno has it's place, and it has come further, is a better product, the you look at synthetic over the years, if anything it has been degraded by the Castrol phrasing of a synthetic, so while we all talk about how much better synthetic is, all most of us are talking up is a real word dyno like PP, many of the Castrol choices, maybe several of the Mobil oils ? (not sure about those) and some (maybe less than 10%) are using a real synthetic like Redline, Amsoil etc. It's just a different way of looking at it, all the talk about how it's very little cost to run a synthetic, and you can run it twice as long etc, when the oil is probably a hydro-cracked dino oil (not sure I have the terminology correct on hydro-cracked) and we are running 10k, 12k, even 15k on these real world, Castrol marketing so called synthetic !!! (which is really a dyno)
I bet all in all most people spend far more running a synthetic, because from reading, and like myself when I creep up on those double digit miles I'm getting ready for an oil change (for me it's creeping up on 15k with my Honda) so I normally change out around 12k or after, with a dyno I would be more apt to run to 7500 miles.
This is my first run of Castrol GC in awhile, and I have enough synthetic to run me a year or so, after that may stop chasing the synthetic rebates, on sale oils, clearance, but then what would be the point of life ?? hahaha still dyno has it's place, and it has come further, is a better product, the you look at synthetic over the years, if anything it has been degraded by the Castrol phrasing of a synthetic, so while we all talk about how much better synthetic is, all most of us are talking up is a real word dyno like PP, many of the Castrol choices, maybe several of the Mobil oils ? (not sure about those) and some (maybe less than 10%) are using a real synthetic like Redline, Amsoil etc. It's just a different way of looking at it, all the talk about how it's very little cost to run a synthetic, and you can run it twice as long etc, when the oil is probably a hydro-cracked dino oil (not sure I have the terminology correct on hydro-cracked) and we are running 10k, 12k, even 15k on these real world, Castrol marketing so called synthetic !!! (which is really a dyno)
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Better MPG? Probably not (Syn advantage, IMHO)
Good cold performance (yes, but Syn definitly better. Syn also outperforms in the brutal heat easily! That wasn't mentioned)
Everything else? Too vague
FRESH dino oil verses OLD synth. Do you realize those properties degrade over service?
Better MPG? Probably not (Syn advantage, IMHO)
Good cold performance (yes, but Syn definitly better. Syn also outperforms in the brutal heat easily! That wasn't mentioned)
Everything else? Too vague
FRESH dino oil verses OLD synth. Do you realize those properties degrade over service?
Originally Posted By: rclint
I bet all in all most people spend far more running a synthetic, from reading...
Yeah, a lot of guys want "the best" oil, and pays whatever the cost without considering the entire service cycle where that great oil could easily be replaced by multiple changes of fresh cheaper oil that hasn't degraded.
I bet all in all most people spend far more running a synthetic, from reading...
Yeah, a lot of guys want "the best" oil, and pays whatever the cost without considering the entire service cycle where that great oil could easily be replaced by multiple changes of fresh cheaper oil that hasn't degraded.
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
gfh77665 said:
mechanix - Your comparison figures only have 2 oil filters for using the synth, and four for the dino.
You could leave the dino filters in for just as long, with no problems.
You could leave the dino filters in for just as long, with no problems.
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
We need to assume a few things .....
So, simple answer. If you don't mind changing your own oil you will get a better result with dino for the same cost. Better deposit control, and probally better mpg, good cold performance and everything else. too.
Deposit control? Possible.
Better MPG? Probably not (Syn advantage, IMHO)
Good cold performance (yes, but Syn definitly better. Syn also outperforms in the brutal heat easily! That wasn't mentioned)
Everything else? Too vague
So how long will a engine that runs conventional oil last when run in "brutal" heat?
And at what temp is "brutal"?
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
We need to assume a few things .....
So, simple answer. If you don't mind changing your own oil you will get a better result with dino for the same cost. Better deposit control, and probally better mpg, good cold performance and everything else. too.
Deposit control? Possible.
Better MPG? Probably not (Syn advantage, IMHO)
Good cold performance (yes, but Syn definitly better. Syn also outperforms in the brutal heat easily! That wasn't mentioned)
Everything else? Too vague
So how long will a engine that runs conventional oil last when run in "brutal" heat?
And at what temp is "brutal"?
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
mechanix - Your comparison figures only have 2 oil filters for using the synth, and four for the dino.
You could leave the dino filters in for just as long, with no problems.
You mean John Browning right? He is the one that figured 4 filter for dino and only 2 for synthetic. Plus he was figuring prices of $10 extended oil filters. And my argument was the same as yours, that it should be 2 filters for the dino too, or at least 4 filters that weren't extended interval price. His figures really stacked the deck against dino.
mechanix - Your comparison figures only have 2 oil filters for using the synth, and four for the dino.
You could leave the dino filters in for just as long, with no problems.
You mean John Browning right? He is the one that figured 4 filter for dino and only 2 for synthetic. Plus he was figuring prices of $10 extended oil filters. And my argument was the same as yours, that it should be 2 filters for the dino too, or at least 4 filters that weren't extended interval price. His figures really stacked the deck against dino.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
We need to assume a few things .....
So, simple answer. If you don't mind changing your own oil you will get a better result with dino for the same cost. Better deposit control, and probally better mpg, good cold performance and everything else. too.
Deposit control? Possible.
Better MPG? Probably not (Syn advantage, IMHO)
Good cold performance (yes, but Syn definitly better. Syn also outperforms in the brutal heat easily! That wasn't mentioned)
Everything else? Too vague
So how long will a engine that runs conventional oil last when run in "brutal" heat?
And at what temp is "brutal"?
I know I'm not A_J, but my argument was excepting brutal heat or cold, and was more about typical conditions and extended OCI. Personally I think dino can handle hot temperatures in normal driving though for it's shorter OCI. That's what the cooling system is for. Or stepping up to a heavier grade in Summer. Now racing is a different story. Also, my argument was while synthetic probably gives better protection in extreme heat or cold, that doesn't mean you should run it exteneded. For example, that doesn't mean you should run the synthetic 5K in a brutal winter, then run this same old oil another 5K through a brutal Summer.
My premise is simple synthetic cost about at least 2x as much, but I don't believe it can always give the same or greater protection for twice as long as dino. I could be wrong. But it's not a knock on synthetic, so much as a knock on extended OCI.
Originally Posted By: gfh77665
Originally Posted By: Audi Junkie
We need to assume a few things .....
So, simple answer. If you don't mind changing your own oil you will get a better result with dino for the same cost. Better deposit control, and probally better mpg, good cold performance and everything else. too.
Deposit control? Possible.
Better MPG? Probably not (Syn advantage, IMHO)
Good cold performance (yes, but Syn definitly better. Syn also outperforms in the brutal heat easily! That wasn't mentioned)
Everything else? Too vague
So how long will a engine that runs conventional oil last when run in "brutal" heat?
And at what temp is "brutal"?
I know I'm not A_J, but my argument was excepting brutal heat or cold, and was more about typical conditions and extended OCI. Personally I think dino can handle hot temperatures in normal driving though for it's shorter OCI. That's what the cooling system is for. Or stepping up to a heavier grade in Summer. Now racing is a different story. Also, my argument was while synthetic probably gives better protection in extreme heat or cold, that doesn't mean you should run it exteneded. For example, that doesn't mean you should run the synthetic 5K in a brutal winter, then run this same old oil another 5K through a brutal Summer.
My premise is simple synthetic cost about at least 2x as much, but I don't believe it can always give the same or greater protection for twice as long as dino. I could be wrong. But it's not a knock on synthetic, so much as a knock on extended OCI.
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The TBN of some dinos is 9-12??? Name one.
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
The TBN of some dinos is 9-12??? Name one.
IF you mean that synthetic have a higher TBN to start with, I don't think anyone said they didn't. But the question is just how high will that TBN and the TAN and other contanimates be after running it past where new dino goes in.
The TBN of some dinos is 9-12??? Name one.
IF you mean that synthetic have a higher TBN to start with, I don't think anyone said they didn't. But the question is just how high will that TBN and the TAN and other contanimates be after running it past where new dino goes in.
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Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
The TBN of some dinos is 9-12??? Name one.
IF you mean that synthetic have a higher TBN to start with, I don't think anyone said they didn't. But the question is just how high will that TBN and the TAN and other contanimates be after running it past where new dino goes in.
With an oil like D1 or M1 0w40... A pretty long time. But yes, there are other's that won't survive for a severely extended OCI.
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
The TBN of some dinos is 9-12??? Name one.
IF you mean that synthetic have a higher TBN to start with, I don't think anyone said they didn't. But the question is just how high will that TBN and the TAN and other contanimates be after running it past where new dino goes in.
With an oil like D1 or M1 0w40... A pretty long time. But yes, there are other's that won't survive for a severely extended OCI.
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
So how long will a engine that runs conventional oil last when run in "brutal" heat?
And at what temp is "brutal"?
How long? I dunno. Tons of factors at play, obviously.
What temp is "brutal"? I would say when you can easily fry an egg on the pavement, which you can doo for months on end where I live.
Funny isn't it, in these dicussions on this forum, EXTREME COLD is a constant subject ad naseum, but heat considerations nearly doesn't seem to exists (or is scoffed at, Bill).
So how long will a engine that runs conventional oil last when run in "brutal" heat?
And at what temp is "brutal"?
How long? I dunno. Tons of factors at play, obviously.
What temp is "brutal"? I would say when you can easily fry an egg on the pavement, which you can doo for months on end where I live.
Funny isn't it, in these dicussions on this forum, EXTREME COLD is a constant subject ad naseum, but heat considerations nearly doesn't seem to exists (or is scoffed at, Bill).
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