3-5K synthetic oil vs. new conventional oil

[mechanicx]

New synthetic oil and filter may provided slightly better protection and performance vs new dino oil and filter for 3,000-5,000 miles or so. But then you change the dino oil and filter, taking out the wear metals and any contaminates, and restoring the additives. At this point the new dino oil and filter seems like it might be superior at about the same cost to the 3-5K mile or so synthetic. Then at the end of that change you are looking at still 3-5K miles or so on the dino oil and filter, vs. 6-10K miles or so on the synthetic.

I know this is an oversimplification andI'm sure this has been argued before, but how many people agree with this line of thinking?

 

[FastSUV]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
New synthetic oil and filter may provided slightly better protection and performance vs new dino oil and filter for 3,000-5,000 miles or so. But then you change the dino oil and filter, taking out the wear metals and any contaminates, and restoring the additives. At this point the new dino oil and filter seems like it might be superior at about the same cost to the 3-5K mile or so synthetic. Then at the end of that change you are looking at still 3-5K miles or so on the dino oil and filter, vs. 6-10K miles or so on the synthetic.

I know this is an oversimplification andI'm sure this has been argued before, but how many people agree with this line of thinking?


yeah I mean pretty much the main benefit of full-syn oils are extreme temps & EXTENDED OCI's...I stuck to a dino OCI even though I ran full-syn because I wanted top notch protection...but for those who run full-syn for the full term (6-10k), then not sure that is better as long as you don't mind doing an oil change every 3-5k with dino...

If I drove a lot in a short amount of time, then for sure a full-syn would be my choice and the extended interval...it is just more convenient...but I am not one of those candidates so I stick to 5k or less...

What is amazing to me is those who do 10k or more on dino just because their OM told them so...by that reasoning, then about anyone could do 10k plus on dino....but I say no way...I am with you...I'd rather have fresh oil every 5k or less,,,,OR at least full-syn oil if I wanted to go longer than 5k....

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: FastSUV

yeah I mean pretty much the main benefit of full-syn oils are extreme temps & EXTENDED OCI's...I stuck to a dino OCI even though I ran full-syn because I wanted top notch protection...but for those who run full-syn for the full term (6-10k), then not sure that is better as long as you don't mind doing an oil change every 3-5k with dino...

If I drove a lot in a short amount of time, then for sure a full-syn would be my choice and the extended interval...it is just more convenient...but I am not one of those candidates so I stick to 5k or less...


Yeah that's exactly how I was seeing it. If cost is no concern then short OCI with synthetic probably is the ultimate. But if you want to contain cost and still get great protection and if you don't mind doing more frequent OCI, then you haven't spent much more changing dino out 2-3x as often and might even be getting better protection.

Quote:
What is amazing to me is those who do 10k or more on dino just because their OM told them so...by that reasoning, then about anyone could do 10k plus on dino....but I say no way...I am with you...I'd rather have fresh oil every 5k or less,,,,OR at least full-syn oil if I wanted to go longer than 5k....


Yeah I agree, I just can't see going 10k/12 months or more with dino just because the OLM says it's OK. I have a lot more faith in the OLM after reading up on it, but I still think it is going for max oil change life moreso than max engine life. The OLM for one thing doesn't know that you may have some coolant leaking into the oil, or that your PCV valve is bad, air filter/oil filter condition, or maybe if you have a missfire and fuel dilution, or if your oil had an additive problem, general engine mechanical condition, etc. Basically, it doesn't really know the condition of your oil, it's just assuming.

Here's the thing, the same arguments against following the OLM apply as much or more to using synthetic in an extended change interval. Unless you are going to do regular oil analysis, you are assuming the oils condition (more cost). Plus to run extended OCI, you might have to use a less efficient filter. To me it doesn't make sense unless you have a fleet of similar vehicles, driven similarly, and maybe with huge sumps like diesels and/or you are paying someone to do oil changes, so you do regular UOA on a sample. Even then you'd need to keep the rest of the engine mechanicals right.

 

[bepperb]

I'd agree that conventional changed twice as often probably does keep an engine equal or better off, but I don't assume conventional costs half what synthetic does because I'm a buy-cheap-or-rebated guy, so even Syn usually costs me less than 2~3 bucks a quart. Also, I value my time especially when that time is changing the oil in my concrete floored unheated garage in January.

I guess that brings up another point, if you're doing a lot of below 0 starts, that's a separate advantage of synthetic not in your argument.

But, I've seen pics of 10,000 mile OCI, 200,000 mile engines always run on M1 that were spotless inside. But I've seen firsthand plenty of spotless engines with questionable OCI's on dino as well.

 

[Audi Junkie]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
New synthetic oil and filter may provided slightly better protection and performance vs new dino oil and filter for 3,000-5,000 miles or so. But then you change the dino oil and filter, taking out the wear metals and any contaminates, and restoring the additives. At this point the new dino oil and filter seems like it might be superior at about the same cost to the 3-5K mile or so synthetic. Then at the end of that change you are looking at still 3-5K miles or so on the dino oil and filter, vs. 6-10K miles or so on the synthetic.

I know this is an oversimplification andI'm sure this has been argued before, but how many people agree with this line of thinking?



It's like I'm reading one of my own posts.

People need to think about the entire service cycle, rather than just "which oil is best".

For the purpose of this discussion, I think we need to consider a 2:1 cost ratio and then the same ratio for changes and then, yes, judge the dino service 2x as often for the same cost as a better service plan.

Fresh friction modifiers in the new oil tend to enhance mpg, and yes, potentially cold crank BETTER than the used synth oil with 4000-5000 miles on it. This kind of takes away that argument since cold-cranking rapidly is diminished in service.

Also, imo there is no substitute for *physically* draining out the contaminates in old oil.

 

[Herz]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
New synthetic oil and filter may provided slightly better protection and performance vs new dino oil and filter for 3,000-5,000 miles or so. But then you change the dino oil and filter, taking out the wear metals and any contaminates, and restoring the additives. At this point the new dino oil and filter seems like it might be superior at about the same cost to the 3-5K mile or so synthetic. Then at the end of that change you are looking at still 3-5K miles or so on the dino oil and filter, vs. 6-10K miles or so on the synthetic.

I know this is an oversimplification andI'm sure this has been argued before, but how many people agree with this line of thinking?


I agree, I have nothing against Synthetic oil. For me personally I just do not see the benefits of a 12 dollar dino oil change versus a 22 dollar + synthetic oil change. Is the synthetic better? Yes but can dino do the same job as far as maintaining a vehicle in a appropriate interval, defenentally. Either way you go most engines today will not have oil related problems if properly maintained. If I can run a good dino oil to 5k and dump it and replace in another 5k and purge those contaminants is better imo! Plus I enjoy changing the oil in my car.

However, I do beleive there is benefit for transmissions and gearboxes.

 

[mechanicx]

Thanks AJ. It's good to see an established member like yourself agreeing with my line of reasoning

. I still also think, putting rebates aside, that synthetic generally runs at least twice as much retail as a quality dino. For example Quaker State GB 8.50-9.50 vs. $20 for Q synthetic. It's about the same story for PYB and PP and Castrol too.

Also, I can see the argument for using synthetic in extremely cold climates (maybe a 0W) in the Winter or to a lesser extent for extremely hot climates in the Summer, but that doesn't necessarily mean you should still be able extended the OCI significantly. In that case dino or synthetic, you should shorten either's OCI. Besides, few people are in such extreme climates.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: defektes

I agree, I have nothing against Synthetic oil. For me personally I just do not see the benefits of a 12 dollar dino oil change versus a 22 dollar + synthetic oil change. Is the synthetic better? Yes but can dino do the same job as far as maintaining a vehicle in a appropriate interval, defenentally. Either way you go most engines today will not have oil related problems if properly maintained. If I can run a good dino oil to 5k and dump it and replace in another 5k and purge those contaminants is better imo! Plus I enjoy changing the oil in my car.


I agree. In most cases, imo for me synthetic should be for if you want to increase the performance of the oil over a normal OCI moreso than extending the change interval, since there's too many variable that could cause you to mispredict the oil's true condition.

Quote:
However, I do beleive there is benefit for transmissions and gearboxes.


I agree here too. Also it is usually a bigger pain changing transmission and differential oil and it's not done as often. Might as well put in the best there.

 

[Audi Junkie]

I just dropped >$20l for some gear oil, Fuchs Silkoleve Pro SRG 75 ester racing oil, no problem. Gear oil can effictively last the life of the vehicle. Motor oil is more of a consumable, like fuel. fwiw, there single oem MTF drain on the Saturn is at 6000 miles. That tells me something about the break-in and subsequent service.

The gear oil thing is off-topic, not to detract from what I think is an important subject. I'd like to see some new vs used cold flow of motor oil homebrew tests.

 

[gfh77665]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
For example Quaker State GB 8.50-9.50 vs. $20 for Q synthetic. It's about the same story for PYB and PP and Castrol too.


If the average motorist drives 10K a year, thats two changes basically. This would amount to $10 difference, twice, so a $20/year price difference for Syn. Thats 38 cents more a week for enhanced Syn protection.

Yeah, I'll buy that!

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: gfh77665


If the average motorist drives 10K a year, thats two changes basically. This would amount to $10 difference, twice, so a $20/year price difference for Syn. Thats 38 cents more a week for enhanced Syn protection.

Yeah, I'll buy that!


You're right, it's not a big difference in cost even at 3 or 4 changes a year. My main point is by the same token it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to extend the OCI by using a synthetic when there's no real savings to be had over more frequent dino changes and the extended intervals might make the protection less. So I don't think I'd extended the intervals even if I did use synthetic. Like you said $10 extra 2 or 3 times a year is not a huge increase.

 

[mechtech2]

Many people have to use a long OCI because it is tough for them to change their oil for various reasons.
This is another reason that a full synthetic can be quite useful.

 

[rclint]

I must state first I'm running synthetic at the moment ( Castrol GC) however I keep seeing post about a dino being changed at say 4,000 miles verses a synthetic changed at 10k, and them being compared, and then others saying the few dollars more synthetic offering better protection less wear etc. If the useful life of the oil of either is still good, then I don't think by changing them your are adding any life to your engine, and I say that towards synthetic or dino, and I really am of the opinion that synthetic does not offer engines any more protection, more any less wear unless the manufacture specs a synthetic grade (specific) oil for that engine. I am one running a synthetic because I rack up a lot of miles in a short amount of time, however I don't think my Honda engine is getting any better protection, more any less wear due to running a synthetic, I do however feel I have cheated the dino/synthetic system being I caught the oil on sale, running a synthetic at close to dino prices, and extending my drain from 7500 miles to around 15k/ 15k changes still get me around 3-4 changes a year (gasp I'm supporting our national fuel shortage. I really think if your paying more for synthetic than for dino for a engine that is not spec for synthetic your wasting your money 90% of the time if you think your getting any better protection, or any less wear that is to say to extend the useful life of the engine any reasonable amount compared to the increased cost of purchase.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Well look at this way.

4 quarts of oil 4 times a year would be 16 of oil for me not counting make up oil. That means 4 oil filters as well.

16X$3.49=$57.44 for dino oil for me

4X$10= $40 4 K&N or PurOne oil filter

So that is $97 for premium brand non-discounted no-tax added dino changed out 4 times a year.

Currently I normaly do synthetic 2 times a year and I will use the same filter prices above even though I am currently useing cheaper ones.I will not use discounted or bogo sale special either for the synthetic.

5 quart Jug of PP or VS $19-$21 per jug

$10 per filter X2 filters

2X$20=$40 for 2 jugs of synthetic oil

2X$10= $20 2 filters for the year

Total for yearly oil change with synthetic $60

So changing my oil every 6 months with synthetic actually saves me $37 a year over dino oil. Now if I happened to live in a state where I could get $.49 a quart SM GF-3 oil then I would not bother with synthetic at all at tose prices but paying full price at Walmart synthetic can save you money if you only change every 6 months instead of 4 times a year. Even if we lowered the price of dino to $2.50 a quart I would still be saving about $21 a year.

 

[Steve S]

Extended oil change intervals are the only reason to run syn oils unless you live in arctic conditions. With syn oils you can do 10,000 mile + oil change intervals and have your engine last as long as with 5,000 mile dino oil changes. I have seen the insides of enough engines to say so. I do not put the miles on my vehicles so syn doesn't do it for me.

 

[JohnBrowning]

For the record I am getting ready in the next 12 months of so once I use up all my oil or get the stuff I need. My Trasko filter has a mesh screen for full flow filtration that is reusable I think it is 25 or 35 micron screen I know nothing to write home to mom about but it their to favor flow. It has a non channeling paper based bypass filter element that is good to submicroscopic levels. That takes about 10% of the oil that is being pumped and puts it through that media. So one unit does it all. The screen is just cleaned after each use so no full flow filter to buy. The elements are around $9 for 3 of them and they come with new o-rings each time as well. I have had the unit sitting in my garage collecting dust since 2003 when I traded my Dodge Dakota in so their is no cost it is sitting around collecting dust and was purchased for another application.

So if I can keep my oil as clean as the day I poured it in then why would I need to change it? I know additives only last so long but how long is so long? We have seen plenty of long oil changes with AMsoil for instance and M1 prior to SM GF3/4 API changes. We know that it is the starting levels of ZDDP and Calcium that make the difference in an oil that can go 5000 miles and be spent compared to one that can go 15,000 and still be good to go. So really if you have the filtration in place and enough additives int he oil to go the distance where is the harm?

It does not matter if the oil is the color of honey or black as night....I could but wesson in your vechile it is nice color but it would not protect very well now would it? The cartilage in my spine is preety old but it is still doing a nice job. Just because something is not fresh does not mean it is not good.

 

[AuthorEditor]

Upstate NY might not be Alaska, but we can have some pretty long periods of cold weather. We usually get a stretch of at least a couple of weeks in January or February where it never gets above 0, and I might be starting up after the car has sat at 20 below all night long. And pretty much all winter from December through March it is below freezing most mornings. How much of an advantage is 5W-20 synthetic over a dino or semi-syn--I don't know? But, anything to help that poor starter get the beast going would sure be nice on some of those mornings. It certainly sounds like it isn't good for the motor.

 

[ADFD1]

If you're paying for a synthetic like Mobil 1 5W20 for the sake of argument, you might as well pay for the 0W20 version. I went to college upstate NY. Those winters can be a bear. Every little bit of extra protection, and reduction of drain on a battery helps. I'd use 0W20 if my engine called for 20wt, and 0W30 if it called for a 30wt.

 

[lexus114]

Good advice!! ^^^^^

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: JohnBrowning
Well look at this way.

4 quarts of oil 4 times a year would be 16 of oil for me not counting make up oil. That means 4 oil filters as well.

16X$3.49=$57.44 for dino oil for me

4X$10= $40 4 K&N or PurOne oil filter

So that is $97 for premium brand non-discounted no-tax added dino changed out 4 times a year.

Currently I normaly do synthetic 2 times a year and I will use the same filter prices above even though I am currently useing cheaper ones.I will not use discounted or bogo sale special either for the synthetic.

5 quart Jug of PP or VS $19-$21 per jug

$10 per filter X2 filters

2X$20=$40 for 2 jugs of synthetic oil

2X$10= $20 2 filters for the year

Total for yearly oil change with synthetic $60

So changing my oil every 6 months with synthetic actually saves me $37 a year over dino oil. Now if I happened to live in a state where I could get $.49 a quart SM GF-3 oil then I would not bother with synthetic at all at tose prices but paying full price at Walmart synthetic can save you money if you only change every 6 months instead of 4 times a year. Even if we lowered the price of dino to $2.50 a quart I would still be saving about $21 a year.





It's not a big deal but you stacked the deck against the conventional oil prices some. Pennzoil dino 5 qt are more like $10-11, so more like 16qt=3x5qt jugs+1 qt=$33-36. you also forgot the sales tax on the difference although that would work against dino too with extra filter changes..but you staccked the deck against dino some buy listing a long life filter price and theoretically if you are going twice as long with the same filter with synthetic, then you could reuse the filter for dino. I know I'm nit picking some. But you can easily get good dino for under $1.90 a qt without sales or rebates.

But even if synthetic ran at twice as long interval is as cheap or cheaper, you are still running the oil twice as long and it's hard to prove you are getting the same level of protection.