2nd Kreen Cleaning -- 98 Camry V6 -- Results

[sprintman]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
You can get an idea of what works and what doesn't work just from reading here. Take all the people posting positive results for a product vs. people who weren't satisfied with the same product. Then do some percentages. Just make sure that you're certain the people posting actually used the product. It could be a real eye opener.


It could, as I know many here haven't actually purchased anything. Say no more!

 

[sprintman]

Originally Posted By: FoxS
Mystic, I see you're sticking to your guns and feel an engine cleaner should just clean, period. No matter the engine, no matter the neglect. It should just clean.

For you it is the same argument as a vacuum cleaner.

Well, by coincidence, a thread about vacuum cleaners has just started on BITOG:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2961377&page=1

I wonder if the BITOG evaluation of a vacuum cleaner is going to be as simple as your notion of how to evaluate a vacuum cleaner.

I somehow suspect it won't be. There will be discussion of performance on hard floor vs carpet, whether they clean to the edge, whether the bag causes suction loss, what size dirt they pick up, how deep into pile they clean, how light they are, how many passes are required.

I don't think even for a vacuum cleaner, there pertinent question is whether it works or not.

So maybe after all, your point that cleaning additives are like vacuum cleaners was correct!

Some vacuum cleaners, like cleaning additives, are better at some things than others!


True. So after mucho research spent $1,100 on said vacuum cleaner and it does he job we want it to do..

 

[Sequoiasoon]

I think you should throw in 1 Quart Pennzoil Ultra, 1 Quart Platinum, 1 Quart Mobil 1 High Mileage, A full pint of MMO, Some Kreen and ARX+ then drive it like you stole it.

Maybe it needs a combination to work right.

 

[TuBon_gRips]

Originally Posted By: Sequoiasoon
I think you should throw in 1 Quart Pennzoil Ultra, 1 Quart Platinum, 1 Quart Mobil 1 High Mileage, A full pint of MMO, Some Kreen and ARX+ then drive it like you stole it.

Maybe it needs a combination to work right.


You'd end up with a quiet engine one way or another

 

[Vikas]

I have no horse in this race but I do not believe Fox's argument was "silly". You were to the one who bought vacuum cleaner in this discussion and he replied to it rather brilliantly. I was somewhat surprised that you called it "silly". I honestly did not expect such a response from you.

 

[FoxS]

Ok, but a few questions still remain:

What vacuum cleaner should I get for maintaining hard floors? I want to avoid scratches from brushes. I also need to get into the edges.

I have a room with a neglected carpet. Should I use steam cleaning or chemicals. If chemicals which ones. Should I figure out if my carpet is wool or artificial?

 

[FoxS]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
I have no horse in this race but I do not believe Fox's argument was "silly". You were to the one who bought vacuum cleaner in this discussion and he replied to it rather brilliantly. I was somewhat surprised that you called it "silly". I honestly did not expect such a response from you.


Thanks Vikas

 

[FoxS]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
You can get an idea of what works and what doesn't work just from reading here. Take all the people posting positive results for a product vs. people who weren't satisfied with the same product. Then do some percentages. Just make sure that you're certain the people posting actually used the product. It could be a real eye opener.


In lieu of a scientific approach, this is the best information we have.

But remember that some people provide more scientific evidence and background information than others, and also explain their methodology. That's one reason I keep mentioning dnewton and his compression readings and his post with all the relevant information (btw, those with a scientific approach understand precisely why someone like dnewton has such long posts when he is explaining things - he is being transparent so that others can confirm his logic for themselves. He doesn't actually waste words although others may think he uses too many).

Others just report back something didn't work or did work. In particular, they leave out background information or information on how they did their application.

On the topic of this thread, not only has Artem taken pictures to satisfy in particular those who never believe anything without seeing it, he has provided thoughtful interpretation of what you can't see in the pictures and has been open in providing information on vehicle history and what else he has tried.

But to indicate how important scientific method is, it was rightly pointed out to him that it is difficult to attribute anything to any one additive now.

So how one draws conclusions from stories on this board is going to be a highly personal thing and ultimately subject to bias.

 

[FoxS]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
We should notice at least some cleaning and if there is none the only thing reasonable people can do is conclude that the cleaner is not effective.


Ok if that is your criteria then you can conclude from Artem, who included the pictures that you insist on, that ARX and Kreen are effective and that ARX cleans 5 times better than Kreen.

He said ARX cleaned about 10% and Kreen 2%.

Btw, by his criteria, that meant they didn't work, but by yours they were "effective".

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Artem
As I've said before, I'm sure these higher end oils will keep an already clean engine clean with reasonable OCIs, but cleaning a dirty engine is a whole other matter.

Pennzoil shows that their oils can keep an engine clean. They didn't show that their oils will literally clean a dirty engine. Or am I missing something?

Link please.


Here's Mobil 1: http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/Mobil_1_Sludge_Protection.aspx

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: FoxS
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
You can get an idea of what works and what doesn't work just from reading here. Take all the people posting positive results for a product vs. people who weren't satisfied with the same product. Then do some percentages. Just make sure that you're certain the people posting actually used the product. It could be a real eye opener.


In lieu of a scientific approach, this is the best information we have.

But remember that some people provide more scientific evidence and background information than others, and also explain their methodology. That's one reason I keep mentioning dnewton and his compression readings and his post with all the relevant information (btw, those with a scientific approach understand precisely why someone like dnewton has such long posts when he is explaining things - he is being transparent so that others can confirm his logic for themselves. He doesn't actually waste words although others may think he uses too many).

Others just report back something didn't work or did work. In particular, they leave out background information or information on how they did their application.

On the topic of this thread, not only has Artem taken pictures to satisfy in particular those who never believe anything without seeing it, he has provided thoughtful interpretation of what you can't see in the pictures and has been open in providing information on vehicle history and what else he has tried.

But to indicate how important scientific method is, it was rightly pointed out to him that it is difficult to attribute anything to any one additive now.

So how one draws conclusions from stories on this board is going to be a highly personal thing and ultimately subject to bias.


Agreed, you nailed it! I did mention that since Artem used so many cleaners its hard to determine anything even if he posts stellar results. Now no one knows for sure if using different cleaners is the key to cleaning his engine or not. There is also a possibility that A-Rx will clean it right up now. Then the possibility that nothing but oil with no additives at all will clean it now. It is possible that the offending junk, while appearing to be the same is ready to surrender finally, and all it needed was a bit more time. Pretty tough to prove or disprove anything at this point.

For the sake of discussion and nothing more I'll toss this out there. [I only wish someone else was associated with the compression results and not DNewton!] But that brings up a point about the credibility of the person posting results of any kind, you have to trust them. Now as far as compression results, while informative, they can easily be skewed or altered unfortunately. Anyone who knows what compression numbers should be showing an issue can jot them down, showing before results, wait a while, say a few months, then post after results, with an improvement w/o even getting their hands dirty. Then for those who actually run the compression test depending on what is causing the low compression just squirting some oil into the weak cylinder/cylinders can raise compression. Now here's the rub, you have to decide if you trust the person who posts the results. In DNewton's case he's a very well respected member here, so that makes things easier for most of us, but there's always a doubting Thomas somewhere in the group.

So far I've seen documentation of A-Rx, Kreen, and MMO raising compression.

 

[greenjp]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
...The cleaner is supposed to clean. It is simple...

Mystic, the horse died about 6 pages ago. Please show some mercy!

 

[Sequoiasoon]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Artem
As I've said before, I'm sure these higher end oils will keep an already clean engine clean with reasonable OCIs, but cleaning a dirty engine is a whole other matter.

Pennzoil shows that their oils can keep an engine clean. They didn't show that their oils will literally clean a dirty engine. Or am I missing something?

Link please.


Here's Mobil 1: http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Synthetics/Mobil_1_Sludge_Protection.aspx


BIG FOOTNOTE on that (written small). "NOTE: The sludge depicted above was created in a simulation. The average driver may not see this type of sludge in everyday driving"

Which could mean many things.....not baked in for 200k, easier to clean, is it conventional or synthetic sludge? Some drivers could see much worse sludge or not.

I worked on a dodge intrepid once many years ago while earning spare cash at Jiffy Lube (hated that place). The owner never changed the conventional oil in 30k+. Nothing came out of oil pan. We put some fresh in and chunks of goo plopped out that smelled like rancid swap a$$. He was turning his lease in so wanted to change oil. Dealer rep happened to be at shop also and copied his info for next day.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Artem
As I've said before, I'm sure these higher end oils will keep an already clean engine clean with reasonable OCIs, but cleaning a dirty engine is a whole other matter.

Pennzoil shows that their oils can keep an engine clean. They didn't show that their oils will literally clean a dirty engine. Or am I missing something?

Link please.


Yes you are missing something.
Originally Posted By: Pennzoil
Pennzoil Ultra™ full synthetic oil prevents sludge and damaging deposits from forming by seeking out, dissolving and neutralizing contaminants safely into the oil and cleans up sludge by gently lifting deposits off engine surfaces and dissolving them into the oil.


Isn't that the Tao of ARX "gentle cleaning"?

http://www.pennzoil.com/technology-of-clean/the-power-of-pennzoil-synthetic-motor-oil/

 

[greenjp]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Yes you are missing something.
Originally Posted By: Pennzoil
Pennzoil Ultra™ full synthetic oil prevents sludge and damaging deposits from forming by seeking out, dissolving and neutralizing contaminants safely into the oil and cleans up sludge by gently lifting deposits off engine surfaces and dissolving them into the oil.

Those sorts of advertising claims are ubiquitous enough to render them almost meaningless. Here's what Mobil says about Mobil 1 High Mileage:
"Mobil 1 High Mileage helps reduce the sludge that other oils can leave behind which can result in extended engine life."
Castrol has this to say about GTX Synblend:
"Unsurpassed protection against engine wear and harmful deposits" Unsurpassed!
Here's Valvoline on Maxlife Synthetic:
"Detergents chemically bond with and remove existing sludge and deposits"

So they all say the same thing. Pennzoil's the only one to feature these claims so prominently in their advertising. They have a test that purports to show better performance than competitors for a single specific case, that of maintaining cleanliness of already-clean piston rings. Yet people here routinely tout Pennzoil conventional, Pennzoil Platinum and Pennzoil Ultra as special cleaning oils. The power of advertising is amazing.

jeff

 

[Trav]

What's the difference in the advertising that the oil company has and from an additive producer?
It comes to credibility, who do you trust? Some guy selling a home baked product of a one stall garage somewhere or a world wide multi billion dollar operation with testing facilities to test and prove their claims?

I'll take the later any day.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: greenjp
Originally Posted By: Trav
Yes you are missing something.
Originally Posted By: Pennzoil
Pennzoil Ultra™ full synthetic oil prevents sludge and damaging deposits from forming by seeking out, dissolving and neutralizing contaminants safely into the oil and cleans up sludge by gently lifting deposits off engine surfaces and dissolving them into the oil.

Those sorts of advertising claims are ubiquitous enough to render them almost meaningless. Here's what Mobil says about Mobil 1 High Mileage:
"Mobil 1 High Mileage helps reduce the sludge that other oils can leave behind which can result in extended engine life."
Castrol has this to say about GTX Synblend:
"Unsurpassed protection against engine wear and harmful deposits" Unsurpassed!
Here's Valvoline on Maxlife Synthetic:
"Detergents chemically bond with and remove existing sludge and deposits"

So they all say the same thing. Pennzoil's the only one to feature these claims so prominently in their advertising. They have a test that purports to show better performance than competitors for a single specific case, that of maintaining cleanliness of already-clean piston rings. Yet people here routinely tout Pennzoil conventional, Pennzoil Platinum and Pennzoil Ultra as special cleaning oils. The power of advertising is amazing.

jeff



Let's not forget that people here also throw out "It's blended to a price point..." when talking about oil. So are third party additives, but they never talk about that.

 

[greenjp]

Originally Posted By: Trav
What's the difference in the advertising that the oil company has and from an additive producer?
It comes to credibility, who do you trust? Some guy selling a home baked product of a one stall garage somewhere or a world wide multi billion dollar operation with testing facilities to test and prove their claims?

I'll take the later any day.


Uh, sure, but you're introducing a topic that I hadn't even mentioned. Agenda much?

There's a lot of "oils clean!" talk in this thread specifically and on the board in general, and demands for "proof" of various kinds. My point was that verbiage used in motor oil advertisements, which is the primary source of "proof" people use for the "oils clean" claim (or more specifically that a particular oil(s) does so better than others), is essentially meaningless.

Discussions such as these, overburdened as they are by dead horse beating, off topic tangets, thread hijacks, etc, provide us with one source of information for which to make a conclusion. Carry on

jeff

 

[Vikas]

Even with pictures, the lighting and color balance can change the perspective so much as to make them too much subjective. As with any scientific study, without significant number of samples, it just becomes anecdotal and individual experiences.

 

[badtlc]

Notice that Pennzoil doesn't compare cleaning ability to oils like Maxlife. That should tell you a lot. Maxlife makes cleaning claims while Synpower does not but Pennzoil chooses to market against Synpower? Brilliant.