21334 vs 57356/xx7317: dueling C+P

[Hohn]

21334 represented by a NAPA Proformer:

The 57356/xx7317 is represented by the OEM Honda:

Stretched tight, the Honda filter media measures 48 1/2 long by 2 7/8 inches wide. This gives a total media area of 139.4 in.².

The Napa media measures 52 inches long by one and three-quarter inches wide. This is a total media area of 91 in.².

The NAPA filter lost about 1/4” of media with in the process of removing it from the metallic center carrier. The Honda OEM filter lost essentially no width because of the fiber board end caps.

Correcting for the estimated quarter inch of loss on the Napa would only increase the media area from 91 in.² to 104 in.²

 

[fantastic]

Thanks for posting both of these.

 

[Hohn]

I wish I could discern how much of the difference is due to the can sizes (taller and thinner vs shorter and fatter) vs design differences. The NAPA’s use of metal end caps seems to make the caps thicker, but this means less space is available for media width.

Both of these filters were relatively short OCIs on young engines. The Honda OEM came off my Accord after some unknown miles as it was on there when I bought the car (the oil was super clean, so guess it was < 2k miles). The NAPA came off a 2015 Kia Forte with only 45k on it and about 6k OCI. (Not my car, I do the changes for a friend). Absolutely nothing to see in the media of either filter.

Anyway, the purpose of this exercise was to satisfy myself whether there was any advantage in flow area to the older short/fat filter used on the S2000 (it happens to be the same filter used on this Kia Forte).

I now feel confident that the OEM Honda used for decades (xx7317 AKA -02, AKA M1-110, AKA XP57356) is not giving up anything to the other alternative that fits on the same filter spud.

 

[DannyM]

The Honda OEM came off my Accord after some unknown miles as it was on there when I bought the car

What year Accord ?

 

[ZeeOSix]

I wish I could discern how much of the difference is due to the can sizes (taller and thinner vs shorter and fatter) vs design differences. The NAPA’s use of metal end caps seems to make the caps thicker, but this means less space is available for media width.

Diameter of the center tube can effect media area too. And obviously the number of pleats and how tightly they are packed around the center tube.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Anyway, the purpose of this exercise was to satisfy myself whether there was any advantage in flow area to the older short/fat filter used on the S2000 (it happens to be the same filter used on this Kia Forte).

A filter's dP vs flow performance also depends on the media design itself (think of flow per sq-in of media), not just the total media area. A filter with more total media area could actually have more dP vs flow if the media itself is more flow restrictive per sq-in.

 

[Hohn]

What year Accord ?

2022

 

[Hohn]

A filter's dP vs flow performance also depends on the media design itself (think of flow per sq-in of media), not just the total media area. A filter with more media area could actually have more dP vs flow if the media itself is more flow restrictive.

Of course. But that would generally mean a filter with higher efficiency for the same delta P at a given reference flow.

There’s no downside to more media area. It lowers the face velocity and improves the efficiency as packaged in the filter (vs normalized tests just done on a patch of media).

Tonight I discovered that there is a FLeetguard filter for these Honda applications: LF3537. It’s rated 95% at 24.6 micron, so pretty comparable to a Microgard. Only with the superior build quality of the Fleetguard can.

They aren’t cheap at $13 each but I’m going to be buying a case of them since I have two hondas that take the same filter.

 

[DannyM]

2022

This is the better Proformer for your car (7317 size) : https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/SFI27356

 

[Hohn]

This is the better Proformer for your car (7317 size) : https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/SFI27356

Thank you.

This was more to see if that short/fat Honda can has more media than the taller skinnier can and i think even within design differences it’s unlikely the short/fat can surpass the media area of the newer filter (7317).

 

[ZeeOSix]

Of course. But that would generally mean a filter with higher efficiency for the same delta P at a given reference flow.

Again, depends on the actual media design. The OG Ultras had high efficiency, high holding capacity, and pretty low total media area compared to other filters in the same can size category, because is was serious depth filtering type media. Only an actual flow vs dP test would show which filters have better flow performance. In the end, there typically is only a few PSI of dP difference between them with hot oil flow.

There’s no downside to more media area. It lowers the face velocity and improves the efficiency as packaged in the filter (vs normalized tests just done on a patch of media).

Of course ... more total area is better, all other factors being the same.

Tonight I discovered that there is a FLeetguard filter for these Honda applications: LF3537. It’s rated 95% at 24.6 micron, so pretty comparable to a Microgard. Only with the superior build quality of the Fleetguard can.

They aren’t cheap at $13 each but I’m going to be buying a case of them since I have two hondas that take the same filter.

Nothing wrong with the build quality of the MicroGard Selects either. Do the Fleetguards have a silicone ADBV and silicone base gasket too?

 

[Hohn]

Nothing wrong with the build quality of the MicroGard Selects either. Do the Fleetguards have a silicone ADBV and silicone base gasket too?

Good question for @NashNative. I’ve always been focused on fuel filters and never saw the cutaway of a small lube filter.

 

[fantastic]

Fleetguard doesn't seem to put a high priority on silicone ADBV or orings so they don't typically use them. I speculate they are more positioned for commercial fleets that follow OEM intervals.

 

[GW.]

The Pentius PLXL 7317 has a lot of media. I measured it in another thread. @twX has kept record of some common filters.

 

[Hohn]

Fleetguard doesn't seem to put a high priority on silicone ADBV or orings so they don't typically use them. I speculate they are more positioned for commercial fleets that follow OEM intervals.

To be fair, it takes a LONG time for a nitrile elastomer to go bad in general automotive use case, so the silicon ADBV is not much real-world value. I’ve seen a LOT of returned/used fleetguard filters with Nitrile seals on them, some after some truly heinous abuse. All were pliable and sealed perfectly.

Besides, the upgrade elastomer for anything oil-wetted isn’t silicone, it’s FKM.

 

[Hohn]

Appending this thread with a note: the OEM filter above is actually a PLM-A01 made by Filtech, it is NOT the newer PLM-A02 made by Fram.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Appending this thread with a note: the OEM filter above is actually a PLM-A01 made by Filtech, it is NOT the newer PLM-A02 made by Fram.

Strange that it has a Fram date code on the can.

 

[Hohn]

Strange that it has a Fram date code on the can.

Well the guts had the Filtech design end caps, so I’m not sure what to tell you.

 

[GW.]

Filtech normally uses a 4 digit code and p-style gasket. I believe made by Tokyo Roki. But who knows what Honda did during covid for parts….

As far as nitrile ADBV’s we’ve seen many here under 10k miles getting stiff. Silicone stays soft and pliable for 10’s of thousands of miles.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Well the guts had the Filtech design end caps, so I’m not sure what to tell you.

Got more photos of the filter guts to post?