So I ended up finding out that my local Advanced carries 0w30 ESP, even in a 5qt jug!! I’ll try that out on the next oil change for sure! Probably going to be May or June is my guess. I’ll probably do the next OCI at 4K also.
21 Subaru Ascent - M1 EP 0w20
- Thread starter TacoFergie
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So I ended up finding out that my local Advanced carries 0w30 ESP, even in a 5qt jug!! I’ll try that out on the next oil change for sure! Probably going to be May or June is my guess. I’ll probably do the next OCI at 4K also.
I would be very curious to see what a UOA for M1 0W30 ESP would look like for this engine. Keep us posted
My plan is to do a VOA on both M1 0w30 AFE and M1 0w30 ESP when I do the next oil change on the Ascent. I might do it sooner since I get antsy sometimes. LolI would be very curious to see what a UOA for M1 0W30 ESP would look like for this engine. Keep us posted
I wished Blackstone would to HTHS, but they don’t. I don’t know all the oil analysis companies that do more in-depth testing or the cost.
I bought 2 jugs of AFE last time so I have a fresh one I can pull a VOA from. I can use that in my Tacoma or Outback if I like the specs of ESP more for the Ascent.
This is not oil issue, it is engine issue.
I am always amazed how these companies design engines like this in 2020’s when this was issue 20 yrs ago.
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Deleted member 89374
They have to be cheap to manufacture. They don't want to spec thicker oil for North America because of CAFE. For the most part, it passes their validation for a predetermined lifespan. Just look at the Hyundai Theta II debacle from a few years ago where the OEM specified 5W-20 for North America and 0/5W-30 (with an option for 0/W-40) for the rest of the world. The result was connecting rods leaving through the engine block before the due date, here in North America, of course, while these engines worked just fine in the rest of the world. Fuel dilution + thin oil + poor maintenance has something to do with it. The typical customer takes better care of just about anything else. Then, when they remember, they tend to their vehicle.
Back from the dead!! Sorry it's been so freaking long. Life as usual taking up all of my time! Here are the results from the past few oil changes. It's odd because the first couple oil changes, almost 10k miles of driving, seemed to chew 0w20 and spit it out like water. The 3rd 0w20 oil change looked much better. But I was already committed to trying 0w30, so I tried Mobil 0w30 AFE and 0w30 ESP. I'm not really a diehard Mobil guy, but it's the only 0w30 I have available locally. I stuck with 0w20 EP in the first 3 oci's because it seemed to be the most robust that was locally available as well.
So do you guys think it's worth sticking to 0w30 or switch back to 0w20? My thought is to stick with 0w30 AFE since it's easier to find, cheaper and doesn't look too far off on the add pack compared to 0w30 ESP. Plus being a turbo 4cyl in a 4600lb curb weight SUV seems like it would benefit from a little heavier oil since it would be under stress more than if it were in a 3800lb Outback. I'm currently on 0w30 AFE and due for an oil change very soon. I know all of this is really just splitting hairs, but that's what this forum is all about.
What do you guys think?
So do you guys think it's worth sticking to 0w30 or switch back to 0w20? My thought is to stick with 0w30 AFE since it's easier to find, cheaper and doesn't look too far off on the add pack compared to 0w30 ESP. Plus being a turbo 4cyl in a 4600lb curb weight SUV seems like it would benefit from a little heavier oil since it would be under stress more than if it were in a 3800lb Outback. I'm currently on 0w30 AFE and due for an oil change very soon. I know all of this is really just splitting hairs, but that's what this forum is all about.
ESP 0w30 held up substantially better than AFE 0w30, I would go as far as saying that it is well worth the small extra cost to get ESP. Just get a 5 quart jug and dump it all in. I think you could easily run ESP out to the standard 6000 mile interval with no worries.
My only concern about ESP is that there is no mention LPSI protection. Though I would imagine since it meets the rigorous testing of MB and Porsche that it's something I should probably not even worry about. In my area the ESP ($39.99) is about $10 more for a 5qt jug than AFE($29.99). I do agree though that the ESP did hold up better. I'll be sending the current AFE out for testing this week.
I have an extra jug of AFE but I may go and get some ESP for the Ascent and just throw the AFE in my Tacoma since the 4.0 doesn't care what oil is put in. I don't know if my Ascent is an anomaly or if others shear oil as bad and no one knows it. To my knowledge there hasn't been any engine failures, but I don't know if any are over 100k.
D
Deleted member 89374
That's because it's a Euro product. However, it carries an MB229.52 approval, which covers LSPI protection.
Not only is a super-high VII going to compound your current issues, it will add new ones all on its own. If I had your engine I’d be searching for oils with much lower volatility, and that generally means “worse” VII. You need an oil that’s less dependent on stuff that shears, not more.
Thank you for that info! I tried finding info about the different approvals but came up dry. I couldn't find anything regarding that.
I guess I'm missing what you're trying to say. I'm not quite as well versed on the oil specs as most here, which is why I've come here to learn. I would assume the oils I have used would fit the bill right? Mobil 0w30 AFE and 0w30 ESP. Judging by my oil analysis's, I would assume ESP would be the better choice from how I am understanding your statement.
You seemed overly enamored by TGMO and its VI of 227. This is going to lead to much higher volatility and evaporation of the lighter components of the oil. David @High Performance Lubricants has posted before that their oils pay specific attention to having lower volatility; think of it this way: if 15% of the final product evaporated when it’s at operating temperature, are you really getting what the oil manufacturer promised? The ESP is better for sure, from what I’ve seen the ESP X3 should be even better.
When the VI is extremely high, that generally means the VII content is higher as well, and in an engine that appears to show lots of mechanical shear, VII is the devil. Read Gokhan’s thread about HTFS, this lines up well and should give you some insight on the love/hate relationship with VII content and types- but generally speaking, the larger the gap between the winter rating and the viscosity grade, the higher the VII and the worse the volatility. A 0w30 or 5w50 is generally much higher in VII than say a 10w20 or 10w30, and VIIs are more susceptible to mechanical shear.
There’s several people on the board with much better understanding than me who may weigh in: MolaKule, Shannow, High Performance Lubricants. But there’s also many good resources in older posts as well.
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I'll have to look into the threads you referred to. That simplifies it quite a bit. I'm no scholar when it comes to all of the oil terms and what it all means in the big picture. I don't really want to go to a 0w40 like ESP X3 is. Basically all I am looking for is an oil that holds up over time.
The reason I thought TGMO 0w20 VI was impressive is my simplified way of looking at oil specs. While I know there is more to it than a single spec, I still found it intriguing. Most oil specs are not easy to find on virgin oil, at least where I have been looking. If there was a 0w20 that stood up to whatever is causing the immense shearing, then I would absolutely try it. I figured that 0w30 would still fit into the specs and allow me to extend the OCI's to 5k miles. The way I see 0w20 in this car is max 4k mile OCI's. At least that's what I am gathering by the data. I could be wrong and I probably am. haha
Look at @OVERKILL’s High Performance Lubricants’ SuperCar 0w20 thread. It’s definitely on the far range of cost, and won’t meet warranty requirements, but there’s no doubt you will never find that kind of protection on the shelf.
David @High Performance Lubricants will certainly be able to tell you which tier of their oils will exceed your performance needs. If you’re dead-set on staying with a “certified” lube and a 0w20 or 0w30 for warranty, unfortunately it seems like you’ll always be stuck with VERY short OCIs since the oil is fighting both mechanical shear and fuel dilution.
On the other hand, if the oil prevents engine damage and you never have a warranty claim, was any harm done with an oil that far exceeded the protection afforded by a shelf-stock oil?
Looks like I've got some more reading to do! thank you!Look at @OVERKILL’s High Performance Lubricants’ SuperCar 0w20 thread. It’s definitely on the far range of cost, and won’t meet warranty requirements, but there’s no doubt you will never find that kind of protection on the shelf.
David @High Performance Lubricants will certainly be able to tell you which tier of their oils will exceed your performance needs. If you’re dead-set on staying with a “certified” lube and a 0w20 or 0w30 for warranty, unfortunately it seems like you’ll always be stuck with VERY short OCIs since the oil is fighting both mechanical shear and fuel dilution.
On the other hand, if the oil prevents engine damage and you never have a warranty claim, was any harm done with an oil that far exceeded the protection afforded by a shelf-stock oil?
Well technically 0w30 isn't called out as an approved lubricant. So Subaru could technically blame an engine mechanical issue on that if it ever came up, though I doubt they would. The manual calls out 0w20 API SN Plus, ISLAC GF-6A, blah blah. From the manual:
"0W-20 synthetic oil is the required oil for optimum engine performance and protection. Conventional oil may be used if synthetic oil is unavailable."
"If 0W-20 synthetic oil is not available, 5W-30 conventional oil may be used if replenishment is needed but should be changed to 0W-20 synthetic oil at the next oil change."
I don't know what they mean by "Conventional oil may be used" when 0w20 is not available as conventional oil to my knowledge. Either way, we all know that 0w20 and lower are primarily done for economy standards (at least thats how I understand it). Now I think 0w40 is excessive. It makes me wonder what is causing this much mechanical shear. I'm sure they all do it, but there are very few UOA's out there for the Ascent.
Subaru's FA24F engine has a reputation for being hard on motor oil and producing an abundance of fuel dilution, it has been known since the engine was first used to model year 2019.
Personally I would not get too hung up on the technical nuance of this oil or that oil but rather ask did M1 0w30 get the job done? You are welcome to go down whatever rabbit hole you find on BITOG and don't let me or anyone else stop you if you really really want to
I think it's difficult to talk about "shear" when you have a uoa where fuel dilution isn't actually tested, IMO.
And on the topic of LSPI, I was quite surprised to see that Subaru Japan allows high SAPS 0W-30 in the 2022 JDM WRX with the FA24DIT, so apparently they're not that concerned about it. Different tuning? Different driving habits?
I have my theories on why they have fuel dilution issues which I can get into if your curious on my thoughts.Subaru's FA24F engine has a reputation for being hard on motor oil and producing an abundance of fuel dilution, it has been known since the engine was first used to model year 2019.
Personally I would not get too hung up on the technical nuance of this oil or that oil but rather ask did M1 0w30 get the job done? You are welcome to go down whatever rabbit hole you find on BITOG and don't let me or anyone else stop you if you really really want to
I feel like 0w30 AFE and ESP performed better than 0w20 EP did. I think that's undeniable for anyone to say. But which performed better? I'm that good at understanding UOA's like many are here. Either way, I haven't seen many UOA's on vehicles that shear oil quite as bad as this engine. I love and hate rabbit holes. Often there is much to learn, but at what expense of time is worth for something that is only fractions of percent better than something else. That's how I got into lighting...thats quite the rabbit hole too. lol
I don't know why Blackstone doesn't do fuel dilution? I have tried to figure another oil testing company, but I don't know which ones are good. Seems like Blackstone is most widely used. Out of curiosity, have you done any UOA's on your Outback XT and if so, how do they turn out?I think it's difficult to talk about "shear" when you have a uoa where fuel dilution isn't actually tested, IMO.
And on the topic of LSPI, I was quite surprised to see that Subaru Japan allows high SAPS 0W-30 in the 2022 JDM WRX with the FA24DIT, so apparently they're not that concerned about it. Different tuning? Different driving habits?
That's interesting about the WRX with the FA24. I'll have to look into that out of curiosity. The only thing I can think of fuel economy and emissions standards. Plus maybe ambient temperature. But temps in the US range anywhere from -30F to 115F where as Japan doesn't quite see those types of temperature swings. It's interesting either way you look at it.
EDIT: It's primarily my wifes DD and it's about a 10 mile trip to work for her with about 40% city/60% hiway. In the winter she hits the remote start for 10 min, sometimes twice for 20 min. In the summer she just starts it up and goes, sometimes remote start for a few min to cool it off. It's also our primary road trip vehicle too.
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