21 Subaru Ascent - M1 EP 0w20

[TacoFergie]

FWIW no engine is harmed in any way nor can it be harmed by using a 40-grade oil. Whatever fears you have are baseless.

I don't fear a 40wt oil at all, I just don't think it's necessary for my use. I don't tow, no excessive loads in the vehicle and I'm not out racing around in big old 3 row SUV. We'll see how the 0w30 goes in future UOA's. If it sucks then a 0w40 euro oil might be the ticket. Also, I haven't seen any experience (whether it's a personal experience or UOA) with a 0w40 in this engine.

40 grade sounds scary but that engine sheared a 20 grade into near 0w-8 range and a 40 grade that's kv100 13 cst will probably end up being 10cst which is a 30 grade. a 30 would end up being a 20.

a 0w-20 at 100f is gonna be like 50cst which is almost 3x the thickness of 20w-50 when hot but how does the engine sound on a cold start? nice and quiet. Once its hot it sounds like a spray paint can.

I agree with all of that! It makes me wonder what else may be going on compared to others UOA's, I'm trying to say my engine has something wrong. Comparing UOA's to the Outbacks that have the FA24DIT they don't seem to be as hard on oil, maybe due to the extra weight and aerodynamics of the Ascent vs Outback? I can't imagine that ours driven any harder than some of those.

I haven't noticed any additional engine noise when the ambient temp is really high. I am normally pretty in-tune when things sound out of the ordinary. But that's not to say I could have missed it either, human error is always a possibility.

 

[JavierH19]

I don't fear a 40wt oil at all, I just don't think it's necessary for my use. I don't tow, no excessive loads in the vehicle and I'm not out racing around in big old 3 row SUV. We'll see how the 0w30 goes in future UOA's. If it sucks then a 0w40 euro oil might be the ticket. Also, I haven't seen any experience (whether it's a personal experience or UOA) with a 0w40 in this engine.



I agree with all of that! It makes me wonder what else may be going on compared to others UOA's, I'm trying to say my engine has something wrong. Comparing UOA's to the Outbacks that have the FA24DIT they don't seem to be as hard on oil, maybe due to the extra weight and aerodynamics of the Ascent vs Outback? I can't imagine that ours driven any harder than some of those.

I haven't noticed any additional engine noise when the ambient temp is really high. I am normally pretty in-tune when things sound out of the ordinary. But that's not to say I could have missed it either, human error is always a possibility.

Whatever the case may be the engine is still shearing oil to 5.8-6.3 which is a bit unacceptable. A thicker oil wouldn't hurt. PP 0w-40 is sp rated and is around 13cst so lspi is next to impossible with it. I wouldn't put high saps M1 FS in it. Once sheared it'll be in the average of a 30 grade. Get it on wm.com for $25 a jug since you'll never find it in store.

 

[kschachn]

I don't fear a 40wt oil at all, I just don't think it's necessary for my use. I don't tow, no excessive loads in the vehicle and I'm not out racing around in big old 3 row SUV. We'll see how the 0w30 goes in future UOA's. If it sucks then a 0w40 euro oil might be the ticket. Also, I haven't seen any experience (whether it's a personal experience or UOA) with a 0w40 in this engine.

I made the fear comment because you said "I'm definitely ok with stepping up one grade to a 30w but I'm reluctant to step up to a 40w, especially this early in the vehicles life." What is it about the early vehicle life you're reluctant about?

The UOA is not helpful to tell you how a particular oil "does" in an engine at least in this respect. Nearly all 0W-40 oils have stringent manufacturer approval requirements that include stay-in-grade requirements. Besides with a Blackstone UOA no one can tell whether a viscosity deviation is due to fuel dilution or mechanical shear. If it is fuel dilution then grade matters.

 

[Ignatius]

I don't think I have heard of that site before. Do you have a link?

Used Oil Analysis (UOA) Reports for Gen 6 OB

www.subaruoutback.org

And if you are going to consider using a 0w40 oil like some have suggested I would recommend Pennzoil Euro 0w40, the API SP rated version but you can find it stores such as Menards. I have used it myself and I think it is a most excellent oil, it is something that I would be willing to drive 6000 miles on in that engine.

 

[TacoFergie]

I made the fear comment because you said "I'm definitely ok with stepping up one grade to a 30w but I'm reluctant to step up to a 40w, especially this early in the vehicles life." What is it about the early vehicle life you're reluctant about?

The UOA is not helpful to tell you how a particular oil "does" in an engine at least in this respect. Nearly all 0W-40 oils have stringent manufacturer approval requirements that include stay-in-grade requirements. Besides with a Blackstone UOA no one can tell whether a viscosity deviation is due to fuel dilution or mechanical shear. If it is fuel dilution then grade matters.

I hear ya! I know there is certainly fear from many going too "thick" causing issues. Within reason, I agree that going thicker won't hurt anything but maybe a bit on MPG's which is negligible anyways on a vehicle this size with a small engine. My reluctance is not really factually based. I just don't see it being reasonable to step up 2 oil grades all at once. I think it would be more reasonable to step up one grade at a time to see what the results are. Though I will admit that 0w40 euro oils are far easier to find than 0w30 oil.

As far as fuel dilution, it does show a metric. Although not a PPM measurement, just a percentage. My guess on why the first OCI had a higher fuel dilution is that I let it idle for a bit before doing the oil change instead of driving it around like I normally do. I haven't really researched much on how fuel dilution affects oil viscosity over the life of the oil, but it's pretty easy to assume it would thin it out which is possibly a good indicator of what is happening here. I haven't really looked too deep into other oil testing services. I know there are a handful out there. Is there a recommendation that provides a better analysis that isn't terribly expensive?

Used Oil Analysis (UOA) Reports for Gen 6 OB

www.subaruoutback.org

And if you are going to consider using a 0w40 oil like some have suggested I would recommend Pennzoil Euro 0w40, the API SP rated version but you can find it stores such as Menards. I have used it myself and I think it is a most excellent oil, it is something that I would be willing to drive 6000 miles on in that engine.

Dang, thats 3 recommendations for for Pennzoil Euro 0w40 in a row! Must be pretty dang good stuff!! I'll have to look into it for sure. Thank you!

Menards is quite the mish mash of stuff, part of why I like the store! Plus it's less than 1 mile from my house!!

 

[kschachn]

The problem with Blackstone's fuel value is that it's an estimation inferred from the flash point. Flash point testing in and of itself has a high repeatability and reproducibility tolerance, so inferring some other value from that is only asking for trouble. There have been many Blackstone UOA posted on here which upon further analysis have been shown to state wildly inaccurate fuel dilution values. A lab that directly tests for fuel dilution (generally by gas chromatography) is a much better method.

 

[FZ1]

I did see 0w30 M1 AFE at Walmart once, but lately I haven’t seen it, let alone many oil options since a lot is out of stock. I’ve never considered Fram oil, I haven’t seen much about it here to know if it’s any good.

Since I live in Iowa our winters get pretty cold. This year so far has been mild. But in the past it’s common for temps to average 10F for a couple months and sometimes there are weeks where the high barely reaches above 0F. I would feel better about a 0w30 vs 5w30 personally. I’ve seen some on Ascent forums using 5w30, but they are usually in AZ or other hot climates.

Check out a "thin" 0w30 like maybe pennzoil. The engine did beat down the vis so stay with the 4k oci. Most of the metals is just break in noise imo.

 

[bluesubie]

I missed this reply, my bad. I'm definitely ok with stepping up one grade to a 30w but I'm reluctant to step up to a 40w, especially this early in the vehicles life. As the get closer to 100k, maybe so. But judging off my use, we won't hit 100k for another 10yrs or so. Our previous car was a 12 Fusion that we sold when we got this in Nov 2020 and it had 85k-ish when we sold it and our driving habits really haven't changed much.

I don't think this engine is used outside of North America but I do recall the FA20DIT has been used for quite a while across the world. In other countries that engine is spec'd for 5w30 or with sever duty 0w40/5w40 and many nerds like us use 5w30 in that engine, though I don't think it's quite as hard on the oil like the FA24DIT has shown to be. While the FA24DIT is based on the same architecture, nobody has gone deep enough to see that all the clearances and other factors are the same. You could argue that bearing clearances can't really get any tighter than they currently are, there are other areas of the engine that theoretically could be affected.

To counter that though, the Ascent owners manual does state that "If 0W-20 synthetic oil is not available, 5W-30 conventional oil may be used if replenishment is needed but should be changed to 0W-20 synthetic oil at the next oil change". Also there is another note that state: "Engine oil viscosity (thickness) affects fuel economy. Oils of lower viscosity provide better fuel economy. However, in hot weather, oil of higher viscosity is required to properly lubricate the engine." So one would assume that an energy resource conserving 0w30 should be just fine. Also some in hot areas use 5w30 in the Outbacks and Ascents with this engine.



That's why I posted this as I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to deciphering UOA's. I know this engine is still "breaking in" but I haven't seen many UOA's where a 0w20 has sheared down to essentially a 16wt. I've seen FF 0w20 on cars with over 5-10k where the 100c Vis is still at 7.00 or higher. I agree that it's odd how Subaru expects 0w20 to last 6k/6mo (OM Recommendation) miles in any circumstances. I certainly wouldn't consider our use as "severe service" that would justify 3k mile OCI's, generally I stick to 5k OCI's which I'll be changing oil again around 15K which should be 4-6wks from now. It's gently driven most of the time, in the winter it is idled for extended periods for warm-up but I wouldn't consider it excessive as Subaru remote start only allows 2 10min intervals, long road trips are usually 80mph, sometimes 85mph on the interstate but in IA, SD and NE it's small rolling hills with no large elevation changes and our city isn't large enough to consider long periods of stop and go IMO.

I agree that stepping up to a good 5w30 should be no issue either. I just prefer a 0wXX for piece of mind in our climate. I do recall that Pennzoil Platinum is a pretty tough oil and tends to be on the thinner side of a 5w30, so it would be a good choice in my eyes if the 0w30 M1 AFE doesn't pan out.

The thing about M1 0w30 AFE is that there is only 1 or 2 VOA's on it that I have seen and I haven't found a single UOA. I've tried searching but didn't come up with anything. I prefer off the shelf oils vs boutique oils I have to order online. I like to support local businesses (though Walmart is hardly what I consider local), I like to just go get it when I need/want it and generally boutique oils are considerably more expensive. Outside of Schaeffers 0w20 (VI 174 and usually lots of Moly) and M1 EP 0w20 (VI 173), I don't know if there are many boutique oils that match or better that. M1 AFE 0w30 has a VI of 166, which isn't as good as the 0w20's but I doubt it will shear down to a 16wt in 5k. Only one way to find out though. The only reason I don't consider Schaeffers a boutique oil in my case is that I can get it locally for a reasonable price. I have looked into Idemistu 0w20 as well, but it's spec sheet doesn't indicate that it would perform any better. If you know of any other 0w20's with that may hold up better, I'm all ears depending on the price of course.

Yes, you’re right about the oil recommendations for the FA20DIT speccing thicker oil outside of N. America. The Euro ACEA A3 0W-30 on Subaru Japan’s web site seemed to be fairly popular among DIT Forester owner’s several years ago based on some owners in Japan posting on the Forester forum. Although not sure why Subaru Japan is still showing high SAPS SN oils these days.

But it’s difficult to tell how hard the engine is on oil from the fuel contamination. You can find a uoa or two on the Subaru Ascent owner’s forum and a few more on the Subaru Outback owner’s forum.

There was a uoa on M1 0W-30 years ago from an EJ turbo (Forester or WRX). I tried a Google search but couldn’t find it. It was major news because the oil stayed in grade.

I agree with @Ignatius on the interval if you stick with a 20 grade. I’m right around 4,500 mile OCI’s, but may cut back on that a bit after seeing some high fuel Outback XT uoa’s with fuel tested via GC. I need to get back to doing uoa’s.

Edit: Didn’t realize there was a second page with more comments. I think I’m asleep already.

 

[TacoFergie]

Check out a "thin" 0w30 like maybe pennzoil. The engine did beat down the vis so stay with the 4k oci. Most of the metals is just break in noise imo.

I haven't had any noticeable noise. Normally I stick to 5k OCI's since that's usually twice a year for our driving habits and its simple to track on the odometer when I randomly drive it, this year had a couple more road trips though. Though I'm not opposed to shortening that if needed. I did look at Pennzoil's 0w30, but M1 AFE was available at our local Wally World so I figured I'd give that a shot.

Yes, you’re right about the oil recommendations for the FA20DIT speccing thicker oil outside of N. America. The Euro ACEA A3 0W-30 on Subaru Japan’s web site seemed to be fairly popular among DIT Forester owner’s several years ago based on some owners in Japan posting on the Forester forum. Although not sure why Subaru Japan is still showing high SAPS SN oils these days.

But it’s difficult to tell how hard the engine is on oil from the fuel contamination. You can find a uoa or two on the Subaru Ascent owner’s forum and a few more on the Subaru Outback owner’s forum.

There was a uoa on M1 0W-30 years ago from an EJ turbo (Forester or WRX). I tried a Google search but couldn’t find it. It was major news because the oil stayed in grade.

I agree with @Ignatius on the interval if you stick with a 20 grade. I’m right around 4,500 mile OCI’s, but may cut back on that a bit after seeing some high fuel Outback XT uoa’s with fuel tested via GC. I need to get back to doing uoa’s.

Edit: Didn’t realize there was a second page with more comments. I think I’m asleep already.

I have had a hard time finding any UOA's on any 0w30. So I guess I'll be a test mule, can't be worse than most over the counter 5w30's.

The Ascent group is odd at best. Not a lot of nerdy, data driven members on there that care about the technical aspect of the vehicle. But even with the limited UOA's I found on Ascent forums it seems like my UOA's faired worse with less miles and arguably a more robust oil. The OB forums are better, but still lacking IMO. But I am used to Tacoma World forums. It has more activity than most forums and has a lot of very detail oriented and data driven members, especially concerning lighting (credit to crashnburn80).

I'll have to look into different UOA sources more accurate fuel dilution before the next oil change.

 

[bluesubie]

I haven't had any noticeable noise. Normally I stick to 5k OCI's since that's usually twice a year for our driving habits and its simple to track on the odometer when I randomly drive it, this year had a couple more road trips though. Though I'm not opposed to shortening that if needed. I did look at Pennzoil's 0w30, but M1 AFE was available at our local Wally World so I figured I'd give that a shot.



I have had a hard time finding any UOA's on any 0w30. So I guess I'll be a test mule, can't be worse than most over the counter 5w30's.

The Ascent group is odd at best. Not a lot of nerdy, data driven members on there that care about the technical aspect of the vehicle. But even with the limited UOA's I found on Ascent forums it seems like my UOA's faired worse with less miles and arguably a more robust oil. The OB forums are better, but still lacking IMO. But I am used to Tacoma World forums. It has more activity than most forums and has a lot of very detail oriented and data driven members, especially concerning lighting (credit to crashnburn80).

I'll have to look into different UOA sources more accurate fuel dilution before the next oil change.

Between nasioc and the Forester board, you can find a bit more uoa’s on the 2.0DIT. On nasioc, there used to be an ongoing 2015+ WRX uoa thread. And on the Forester board, there’s a uoa sticky in the 2.0DIT forum.

Basically they’re all very similar. These cars spec 5W-30 and the majority of uoa’s show low uoa wear and high-ish fuel. Used oil viscosity is generally low 30 grade or mid to high 20 grade.

Once the DIT WRX’s started getting some miles on them, a few failures started popping up. But I don’t believe many of the problem ones were the folks performing UOA’s. Some had claimed to be all stock and running dealer fill with oil changes done at the dealer.

Despite me being an oil thickie in regards to the EJ, I’m sticking with 0W-20 in my Outback XT for now.

 

[FZ1]

I haven't had any noticeable noise. Normally I stick to 5k OCI's since that's usually twice a year for our driving habits and its simple to track on the odometer when I randomly drive it, this year had a couple more road trips though. Though I'm not opposed to shortening that if needed. I did look at Pennzoil's 0w30, but M1 AFE was available at our local Wally World so I figured I'd give that a shot.



I have had a hard time finding any UOA's on any 0w30. So I guess I'll be a test mule, can't be worse than most over the counter 5w30's.

The Ascent group is odd at best. Not a lot of nerdy, data driven members on there that care about the technical aspect of the vehicle. But even with the limited UOA's I found on Ascent forums it seems like my UOA's faired worse with less miles and arguably a more robust oil. The OB forums are better, but still lacking IMO. But I am used to Tacoma World forums. It has more activity than most forums and has a lot of very detail oriented and data driven members, especially concerning lighting (credit to crashnburn80).

I'll have to look into different UOA sources more accurate fuel dilution before the next oil change.

Understand. Just noticed that the vis on your 5k run was lower than your 4k run. I run 20w AFE in my Camry and like it. The reason I suggested 30w Pennzoil is that it is lower vis than the 30w Afe. I'm sure you engine will be fine.

 

[TacoFergie]

Between nasioc and the Forester board, you can find a bit more uoa’s on the 2.0DIT. On nasioc, there used to be an ongoing 2015+ WRX uoa thread. And on the Forester board, there’s a uoa sticky in the 2.0DIT forum.

Basically they’re all very similar. These cars spec 5W-30 and the majority of uoa’s show low uoa wear and high-ish fuel. Used oil viscosity is generally low 30 grade or mid to high 20 grade.

Once the DIT WRX’s started getting some miles on them, a few failures started popping up. But I don’t believe many of the problem ones were the folks performing UOA’s. Some had claimed to be all stock and running dealer fill with oil changes done at the dealer.

Despite me being an oil thickie in regards to the EJ, I’m sticking with 0W-20 in my Outback XT for now.

I have peeked around on nasioc, but the way it's formatted is odd to me. I guess I haven't looked for UOA's on there though.

I'm normally the type to run what's spec'd in the OM. This is the first car I will be doing consistent UOA's on. I likely would have never known it was dropping this low if I just kept to my usual 5k OCI's and moved on with my life. Only thing that has kept me from being a "thickie" is our winters here and I don't want to deal with swapping oil viscosities for summer and winter, that's a thing of the past in my eyes.

So I've tried finding the Pennzoil Platinum 0w30 on their site to check out the specs, but I can't find it on there at all! I can find online retailers, but not on Pennzoil's site.

 

[Ignatius]

@TacoFergie

Mobil 1 ESP now available in 5qt jugs in the US

I've seen some Canadian's in the past post about 5qt jugs of Mobil 1 ESP, but I have never seen them in the US, I was at AAP the other night getting rid of some waste oil and noticed on the shelf they had 5qt jugs of Mobil 1 ESP 0W-30, it must've just been added they don't even have a picture...

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[TacoFergie]

@TacoFergie

Mobil 1 ESP now available in 5qt jugs in the US

I've seen some Canadian's in the past post about 5qt jugs of Mobil 1 ESP, but I have never seen them in the US, I was at AAP the other night getting rid of some waste oil and noticed on the shelf they had 5qt jugs of Mobil 1 ESP 0W-30, it must've just been added they don't even have a picture...

bobistheoilguy.com

When I look at the specs it doesn't show any SN+ or SP ratings. I would assume that all of the Euro specs are equal to or better than what my little Subaru calls for?

 

[TacoFergie]

Out of curiosity, would an oil additive help at all in any of this? I know that is a very controversial subject, but I thought I would get some opinions. Obviously if 0w30 performs well, then there is no reason to consider it IMO. Mainly just curious what peoples thoughts are.

A couple considerations I thought of are LM M0S2 or Schaeffers Moly EP.

 

[Ignatius]

Out of curiosity, would an oil additive help at all in any of this? I know that is a very controversial subject, but I thought I would get some opinions. Obviously if 0w30 performs well, then there is no reason to consider it IMO. Mainly just curious what peoples thoughts are.

A couple considerations I thought of are LM M0S2 or Schaeffers Moly EP.

I would use BG MOA if I were adding an additive to the oil but that is totally up to you.

I personally consider the Euro specs that M1 ESP oils carry to far exceed any API or ILSAC certification. If I had a vehicle with the FA24F engine I would have no issue dumping that entire 5 quart jug of M1 0w30 ESP into the crankcase during an oil change.

I most recently used that same oil in a Honda J35Y6 engine and it has been running so incredibly well ever since. I get mine from AAP and so long as they continue to sell it, it will be one of my go-to oils in the future.

 

[TacoFergie]

I would use BG MOA if I were adding an additive to the oil but that is totally up to you.

I personally consider the Euro specs that M1 ESP oils carry to far exceed any API or ILSAC certification. If I had a vehicle with the FA24F engine I would have no issue dumping that entire 5 quart jug of M1 0w30 ESP into the crankcase during an oil change.

I most recently used that same oil in a Honda J35Y6 engine and it has been running so incredibly well ever since. I get mine from AAP and so long as they continue to sell it, it will be one of my go-to oils in the future.

Good points made! I don't know why I forgot about BG.

Also makes me wonder what the specs are on BG's 0w30, but it's probably crazy expensive and hard to get.

BG Hi-L0W30 Full Synthetic Engine Oil

A full synthetic engine oil with the best shear stable polymer technology available and formulated with detergents to keep engines clean by resisting thermal oxidation, evaporation, and thickening.

www.bgprod.com

 

[kschachn]

Also makes me wonder what the specs are on BG's 0w30, but it's probably crazy expensive and hard to get.

There are no specs. It has no licenses, no specifications and no approvals.

If something is that good to charge a ridiculous price then prove it. BG products such as this exist for one reason only.

 

[PimTac]

Out of curiosity, would an oil additive help at all in any of this? I know that is a very controversial subject, but I thought I would get some opinions. Obviously if 0w30 performs well, then there is no reason to consider it IMO. Mainly just curious what peoples thoughts are.

A couple considerations I thought of are LM M0S2 or Schaeffers Moly EP.

Just run a quality oil like you are doing. No need for additives.

 

[Ignatius]

Good points made! I don't know why I forgot about BG.

Also makes me wonder what the specs are on BG's 0w30, but it's probably crazy expensive and hard to get.

BG Hi-L0W30 Full Synthetic Engine Oil

A full synthetic engine oil with the best shear stable polymer technology available and formulated with detergents to keep engines clean by resisting thermal oxidation, evaporation, and thickening.

www.bgprod.com

I would prefer to use M1 0w30 ESP now that it is readily available via AAP at a decent price no less. It is proven and has a substantial amount of high level approvals. I have used it and have been impressed with the results. Taking this into consideration I would not go out of my way to buy BG 0w30.