I don't know how they advertise their products. Feel free to ask them; they're on this board.
2025 Toyota Rav4 personal engine oil struggle.
- Thread starter GI_GRIFF
- Start date
Is there evidence supporting this claim?
I would run 0w20 Pennzoil Platinum, Mobil 1 or Kirkland oil. Change every 5000 to 7500 miles.
dnewton3
Staff member
And those aren't arbitrary? As if the one-size-fits-all OLM or IOLM doesn't pigeonhole users into an OCI based on criteria which are, at best, a massive compromise which does not take lube and application into mind? People here all the time complain that the IOLMs run too far, or not far enough, based on what? And let's not pretend that BITOGers (and other home garage fiddlers) don't make up their own OCIs based on hunches, mythology and rhetoric ...
The OEMs set their schedules with one thing in mind; protecting their position. The cost of OCIs is borne by the user/owner. It costs the OEM nothing to tell us how often to change oil based on some very-loosely based "science", because we pay for the OCI. The OEMs are trying to balance their fiscal warranty risks versus pressure from governing entities to maximize the oil (reduce production of virgin oils). The OEMs are not out there studying each user's unique conditions and making a recommendation based on real world criteria which best maximizes the ROI for the end user. The OEM OCIs are, at best, a collection of averages which control their risks and quell the green concerns of drilling for crude.
You've been here long enough to understand that maintenance tasks can be managed one of three ways:
- panic maintenance (waiting for something to fail; addressing it with no regard for downtime or collateral damage costs)
- preventative maintenance (scheduled changes based on guesses and arbitrary stuff like miles or duration)
- predictive maintenance (planned changes based on actual measurable objective data which supports logical conclusions within proven condemnation limits)
HPL, Amsoil and other top end products will never make sense in short duration OCIs. And those brands are at least honest enough to admit that. These products shine when the maintenance program is well managed with a ROI goal in mind.
Having to run an oil to 25k miles, to realize return on the investment, seems like a shaky proposition. And not to mention, even Amsoil recommends a maximum of one year change interval, and not very many people drive 25k miles in one year.
Acid buffers get depleted during long runs. Wear metals accumulate, as does dirt passed by the air filter. Condensation can occur with short trips. With DI engines, which most are these days, fuel accumulates in the oil. And even good oils can suffer viscosity shear. Not to mention, every time another quart of oil needs to be added, that further adds to the cost.
To me, there are just too many things working against long run change intervals, unless the users stars all align just right. For the huge majority of users, I think they would be better off with using "regular" (Walmart) oil at a short 5k change interval. To each their own, though.
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All of those things you listed can be tested in a UOA. HPL oils have been tested and shown to hold up. @wwillson and @SubieRubyRoo 's are ones I can think of offhand. Generally people running HPL don't have oil burning issues. That's kind of the point of running it. Your engine and piston rings are so clean that it doesn't burn oil. If you have a defective engine design, and you're burning a lot of oil, then yes, maybe HPL doesn't make sense for you. Although I agree about Amsoil recommending 1 year intervals max. I don't think HPL makes the same recommendation.
Why just changing more frequently with a lower quality oil doesn't work has been explained frequently here. However if you haven't seen a good explanation, @RDY4WAR has a good one here.
The A25A engine is DI + port injection, where at low and medium loads, it's DI + port injection. Only at high load, it is DI only.
And the previous UOA's on these engines show they don't suffer fuel dilution like some other DI engines, especially certain Honda engines.
Partially accurate.
1 - injection in port, 2 - injection in cylinder + port, 3 - injection in cylinder
Also the A25A does have known issue with dilution maybe not in all cases or as bad as Honda but it definitely happens. Check out the UOA sub, there are post about it. Here’s one to start.
Winter run of 5,600 miles from Dec ‘23 to Mar ‘24. OA lists oil as PP 0W16 on report but it is actually PP 0W20. Previous data from Dec ‘22 to Mar ‘23 is with PP 0W16 for 5,000 miles. Viscosity stayed around 7.0 cst @100c this time which is about the range I was hoping for going up. The Toyota seems to dilute in colder weather, but does fine during the warmer months. Likely to stick with PP 0W20 during the winters to mitigate.
What lab is performing these UOAs and by what method?
I’m retired now, but for close to 25 years I changed the Amsoil oil/filter in my Toyota trucks 3 times a year, with an average of 75k miles annually. Most of my Tacomas had 350k miles or more when I sold them. Did the occasional UOA too. Never any oil related issues.
Currently use Amsoil XL with annual oil changes in both our Toyotas.
Currently use Amsoil XL with annual oil changes in both our Toyotas.
The comment provided in that thread is not proof that "lower quality oil doesn't work." Your comment taken on face, is inaccurate also. What does 'doesn't work' mean?
Regarding oil burning, fouled oil control rings are not the sole reason engines burn oil. Simple wear from high mileage increases clearances, valve stem seals harden with heat cycles and years of use, not to mention, some engines can leak oil. It's perfectly normal to have to add some oil between changes, and again, with high buck oil, that adds further to the cost.
If someone is worried about ring fouling, just run Valvoline Restore & Protect. It costs $30/5 quarts at Walmart. There is no need to spend more than double that for boutique oils.
This right here is the game changer and probably covers most situations!! I still believe for severe service or extended intervals a boutique is more appropriate.
Continuing my rant...
If modern engines are building carbon in the ring lands using oils meeting ILSAC GF-6A, API SP, dexos 1 Gen 3, specifications, something is drastically wrong with these specs. Particularly if HPL, Amsoil, and other boutique oils solve this problem. Where are the new oil specs solving the carbon problem? Are new specs needed? Some of you guys sure make it seem that existing specs are garbage, and only high dollar oils are worth using.
If modern engines are building carbon in the ring lands using oils meeting ILSAC GF-6A, API SP, dexos 1 Gen 3, specifications, something is drastically wrong with these specs. Particularly if HPL, Amsoil, and other boutique oils solve this problem. Where are the new oil specs solving the carbon problem? Are new specs needed? Some of you guys sure make it seem that existing specs are garbage, and only high dollar oils are worth using.
IMO those specs are not stringent enough. Dexos 2 Gen 3 has approved syn blends for example. The current shift to more stringent Euro specs is currently happening, like Dexos R rubber stamping ESP and FS 0W-40. Supercar is just a name change from ESP Formula 0W-40.
I see choice of oil not completely dissimilar to choosing a hotel when traveling. Let's stay a week. Both less expensive "off-the-shelf" hotels and more expensive "boutique" hotels will typically have a place for you to put your clothes, wash, and most importantly, sleep at night (lets call these base oils). Typically, the boutique hotels provide higher quality beds, pillows, linen, soaps and other amenities (let's call these additives). The off-the-shelf hotel may be in higher traffic areas and not have as good of insulation. You may feel like you had a good night's sleep, but the boutique hotel might be more restful.
By the end of your stay (OCI) at the less expensive hotel, you might be feeling fatigued. If you followed the exact same schedule, ate at the exact same time and places, etc., but stayed at a more expensive hotel, you might feel more rested. Studies have shown poor sleep can be detrimental to long-term health. Which is the better choice? It depends on your circumstances and priorities.
By the end of your stay (OCI) at the less expensive hotel, you might be feeling fatigued. If you followed the exact same schedule, ate at the exact same time and places, etc., but stayed at a more expensive hotel, you might feel more rested. Studies have shown poor sleep can be detrimental to long-term health. Which is the better choice? It depends on your circumstances and priorities.
In summary, it's all opinion based. Your engine "might" last longer, but there is no proof.
Not 100% opinion. Should a butterfly flap its wings somewhere along the way, chaos theory says this could change everything, especially over long OCIs.
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