2025 Toyota Rav4 personal engine oil struggle.

[Plumb Bob]

Is that how HPL advertises its lubricants? Has it been validated with engine teardown comparison with other off the shelf synthetic oil?

I don't know how they advertise their products. Feel free to ask them; they're on this board.

 

[ChrisD46]

As for TGMO , although it has a high moly l content - I’m not so sure the oil is really anything special ?

 

[Nessism1]

Not the best analogy. Your engine will be far cleaner running HPL for 25K, than most off-the-shelf API for 5K.

Is there evidence supporting this claim?

 

[NiwradND]

I would run 0w20 Pennzoil Platinum, Mobil 1 or Kirkland oil. Change every 5000 to 7500 miles.

 

[dnewton3]

I don't arbitrarily set maintenance schedules, OEMs set the schedule.

And those aren't arbitrary? As if the one-size-fits-all OLM or IOLM doesn't pigeonhole users into an OCI based on criteria which are, at best, a massive compromise which does not take lube and application into mind? People here all the time complain that the IOLMs run too far, or not far enough, based on what? And let's not pretend that BITOGers (and other home garage fiddlers) don't make up their own OCIs based on hunches, mythology and rhetoric ...
The OEMs set their schedules with one thing in mind; protecting their position. The cost of OCIs is borne by the user/owner. It costs the OEM nothing to tell us how often to change oil based on some very-loosely based "science", because we pay for the OCI. The OEMs are trying to balance their fiscal warranty risks versus pressure from governing entities to maximize the oil (reduce production of virgin oils). The OEMs are not out there studying each user's unique conditions and making a recommendation based on real world criteria which best maximizes the ROI for the end user. The OEM OCIs are, at best, a collection of averages which control their risks and quell the green concerns of drilling for crude.


You've been here long enough to understand that maintenance tasks can be managed one of three ways:
- panic maintenance (waiting for something to fail; addressing it with no regard for downtime or collateral damage costs)
- preventative maintenance (scheduled changes based on guesses and arbitrary stuff like miles or duration)
- predictive maintenance (planned changes based on actual measurable objective data which supports logical conclusions within proven condemnation limits)


HPL, Amsoil and other top end products will never make sense in short duration OCIs. And those brands are at least honest enough to admit that. These products shine when the maintenance program is well managed with a ROI goal in mind.

 

[Nessism1]

And those aren't arbitrary? As if the one-size-fits-all OLM or IOLM doesn't pigeonhole users into an OCI based on criteria which are, at best, a massive compromise which does not take lube and application into mind? People here all the time complain that the IOLMs run too far, or not far enough, based on what? And let's not pretend that BITOGers (and other home garage fiddlers) don't make up their own OCIs based on hunches, mythology and rhetoric ...
The OEMs set their schedules with one thing in mind; protecting their position. The cost of OCIs is borne by the user/owner. It costs the OEM nothing to tell us how often to change oil based on some very-loosely based "science", because we pay for the OCI. The OEMs are trying to balance their fiscal warranty risks versus pressure from governing entities to maximize the oil (reduce production of virgin oils). The OEMs are not out there studying each user's unique conditions and making a recommendation based on real world criteria which best maximizes the ROI for the end user. The OEM OCIs are, at best, a collection of averages which control their risks and quell the green concerns of drilling for crude.


You've been here long enough to understand that maintenance tasks can be managed one of three ways:
- panic maintenance (waiting for something to fail; addressing it with no regard for downtime or collateral damage costs)
- preventative maintenance (scheduled changes based on guesses and arbitrary stuff like miles or duration)
- predictive maintenance (planned changes based on actual measurable objective data which supports logical conclusions within proven condemnation limits)


HPL, Amsoil and other top end products will never make sense in short duration OCIs. And those brands are at least honest enough to admit that. These products shine when the maintenance program is well managed with a ROI goal in mind.

Having to run an oil to 25k miles, to realize return on the investment, seems like a shaky proposition. And not to mention, even Amsoil recommends a maximum of one year change interval, and not very many people drive 25k miles in one year.

Acid buffers get depleted during long runs. Wear metals accumulate, as does dirt passed by the air filter. Condensation can occur with short trips. With DI engines, which most are these days, fuel accumulates in the oil. And even good oils can suffer viscosity shear. Not to mention, every time another quart of oil needs to be added, that further adds to the cost.

To me, there are just too many things working against long run change intervals, unless the users stars all align just right. For the huge majority of users, I think they would be better off with using "regular" (Walmart) oil at a short 5k change interval. To each their own, though.

 

[ATex7239]

And those aren't arbitrary? As if the one-size-fits-all OLM or IOLM doesn't pigeonhole users into an OCI based on criteria which are, at best, a massive compromise which does not take lube and application into mind? People here all the time complain that the IOLMs run too far, or not far enough, based on what? And let's not pretend that BITOGers (and other home garage fiddlers) don't make up their own OCIs based on hunches, mythology and rhetoric ...
The OEMs set their schedules with one thing in mind; protecting their position. The cost of OCIs is borne by the user/owner. It costs the OEM nothing to tell us how often to change oil based on some very-loosely based "science", because we pay for the OCI. The OEMs are trying to balance their fiscal warranty risks versus pressure from governing entities to maximize the oil (reduce production of virgin oils). The OEMs are not out there studying each user's unique conditions and making a recommendation based on real world criteria which best maximizes the ROI for the end user. The OEM OCIs are, at best, a collection of averages which control their risks and quell the green concerns of drilling for crude.


You've been here long enough to understand that maintenance tasks can be managed one of three ways:
- panic maintenance (waiting for something to fail; addressing it with no regard for downtime or collateral damage costs)
- preventative maintenance (scheduled changes based on guesses and arbitrary stuff like miles or duration)
- predictive maintenance (planned changes based on actual measurable objective data which supports logical conclusions within proven condemnation limits)


HPL, Amsoil and other top end products will never make sense in short duration OCIs. And those brands are at least honest enough to admit that. These products shine when the maintenance program is well managed with a ROI goal in mind.

Well said.

Panic maintenance is also called reactive maintenance.

 

[tired]

Having to run an oil to 25k miles, to realize return on the investment, seems like a shaky proposition. And not to mention, even Amsoil recommends a maximum of one year change interval, and not very many people drive 25k miles in one year.

Acid buffers get depleted during long runs. Wear metals accumulate, as does dirt passed by the air filter. Condensation can occur with short trips. With DI engines, which most are these days, fuel accumulates in the oil. And even good oils can suffer viscosity shear. Not to mention, every time another quart of oil needs to be added, that further adds to the cost.

To me, there are just too many things working against long run change intervals, unless the users stars all align just right. For the huge majority of users, I think they would be better off with using "regular" (Walmart) oil at a short 5k change interval. To each their own, though.

All of those things you listed can be tested in a UOA. HPL oils have been tested and shown to hold up. @wwillson and @SubieRubyRoo 's are ones I can think of offhand. Generally people running HPL don't have oil burning issues. That's kind of the point of running it. Your engine and piston rings are so clean that it doesn't burn oil. If you have a defective engine design, and you're burning a lot of oil, then yes, maybe HPL doesn't make sense for you. Although I agree about Amsoil recommending 1 year intervals max. I don't think HPL makes the same recommendation.

Why just changing more frequently with a lower quality oil doesn't work has been explained frequently here. However if you haven't seen a good explanation, @RDY4WAR has a good one here.