2016 Dodge Charger 3.6L 66,000 total miles 11,000 miles on HPL 5w-30 HDEO CJ-4

[Astro14]

I really like the Mercedes from the 1980's and 1990's. At that time, Mercedes told their engineers to build the best most reliable vehicles without regard to cost. Many of those cars made it to 400k miles. Sadly, in the latest issue of Consumer Reports Magazine, Mercedes is now the least reliable brand of all the 25+ car makers listed for new car reliability. Also, the astronomical parts costs and dealer costs make total cost of ownership a little too high for me. I was thinking about buying a Mercedes S600 from the late 1990's where depreciation makes them affordable and the parts are still readily available.

As an S600 owner, I would advise a bit of caution.

The W140 chassis and body are bulletproof, and built to that old standard, but the M137 V-12 had a couple of serious issues. So, stick to the earlier M120 engine. Avoid the late 90s models of the W140 with the -12, stick with mid 90s. I’m not sure of the crossover year, but some time on forums like BenzWorld would be well spent.

The successor to the W140, the W220 (mine) isn’t built to the same standard. I love the car, and the performance, but I sure would like some of that old Mercedes build quality.

@JHZR2 has a couple of W140s, I think he’d be a great resource if you’re serious about one.

 

[Bill7]

My 2010 Escape had OCIs ranging from 7k to 12k miles. Owned it from 60k to 130k. When I did the Valve cover gasket it was nice and clean inside. None of the sludge you say should have been there. Lol.

Glad to hear that. Not saying everyone ends up with sludge, but just saying if everyone did 4k/6 month OCI's, not a single engine in the US would have sludge.

 

[Bill7]

As an S600 owner, I would advise a bit of caution.

The W140 chassis and body are bulletproof, and built to that old standard, but the M137 V-12 had a couple of serious issues. So, stick to the earlier M120 engine. Avoid the late 90s models of the W140 with the -12, stick with mid 90s. I’m not sure of the crossover year, but some time on forums like BenzWorld would be well spent.

The successor to the W140, the W220 (mine) isn’t built to the same standard. I love the car, and the performance, but I sure would like some of that old Mercedes build quality.

@JHZR2 has a couple of W140s, I think he’d be a great resource if you’re serious about one.

Thanks for the advice. I will spend some time on the benzworld forum. The mid 1990's with the M120 engine would be better then.
Also, I would need to find a good local mechanic who specializes in German cars, and some good websites for ordering OEM parts at discount prices.

 

[Astro14]

Glad to hear that. Not saying everyone ends up with sludge, but just saying if everyone did 4k/6 month OCI's, not a single engine in the US would have sludge.

There are a lot of neglected cars on the road. No argument. Many of them have sludge.

The mechanism by which they acquired the sludge, or other problems, varies, I’m sure.

Not one of Wayne’s cars is neglected, I promise. I’ve seen a couple of them.

 

[dbias]

The Toyota "Car Care Nut" mechanic is a very honest likeable mechanic on youtube with hundreds of video's.
After working in Chicago at a Toyota Dealership for 10+ years and becoming a Toyota Master Certified Diagnostic mechanic,
he opened up his own repair show where he only works on Toyota/Lexus/Scion vehicles, as that is all he knows.

He talks about how he has removed engines from all toyota models hundreds of times over his 10 year career.

I trust his insight as anyone who is an expert mechanic like him and spends hours a day taking engines out of vehicles, an then replacing
their short blocks and seeing the constant pattern of gummed up piston rings caused by dirty oil with the 10k OCI. He has no reason or financial gain to lie about the 10k OCI.

It all comes down to this:
If you were shopping for a used car and went to see 2 Craigslist advertised cars on the same day with both cars being the same year, similar mileage and condition, but 1 owner doing 3k/6 month OCI's, while the other owner experimenting with 11k/2 year OCI's, which car would you want to buy? We all know the answer to that.

Could the symptoms he sees due to Toyota piston ring design? I’ve had several VW and Audi run on 10k oci and no signs of drinking oil like a Toyota.
To compensate for Toyota bad design I agree a 5k oci would be beneficial.

 

[Astro14]

Could the symptoms he sees due to Toyota piston ring design? I’ve had several VW and Audi run on 10k oci and no signs of drinking oil like a Toyota.
To compensate for Toyota bad design I agree a 5k oci would be beneficial.

I took care of my Step-Kids’ 2006 Corolla with the 2.4 four cylinder. Bought new in 2006.

That engine was known for just that ring design issue, insufficient oil drain holes on the grooves, leading to sludge and sticking rings, so it got 5,000 mile changes with whatever synthetic I could find on sale.

Here‘s a thread I started, showing a photo when I checked the valve clearance.

Warning: Valve train pics after using cheap oil!

I just pulled the valve cover on the Corolla to measure valve clearance. Engine has 93K on it... Here's what happens when you use cheap oil (oil bought on sale...Valvoline, Pennzoil, Mobil, Toyota, and lately Castrol.). I've never paid over $3.00/qt. What should I do....U

bobistheoilguy.com

That car had over 200,000 on it, and used no oil, when it was given away to a family that needed a good car.

So, for that engine, with its known flaws, I was a 5,000 mile guy.

 

[Sam_Julier]

On youtube, the Toyota "Car care nut" Toyota Master Diagnostic technician who worked over 10 years at a Toyota dealer and who has re-built hundreds of Toyota engines says the main reason for their chronic oil burning across all models / years, is the 10k OCI.
He makes the case that UOA's are worthless as they don't show you the sludge on the inside of the engine, where oil jets get plugged up and piston rings get clogged, and a decent amount of the dirty oil from the last oil change doesn't completely drain out and contaminates the new oil. So many of the engines he takes out of 5 to 10 year old Toyota's need a complete rebuild with repair bill over $6k,
and he attributes all the issues to the 10k OCI.

Also, there are several youtube vidoes of new Ford Ecoboost engines with 15,000 total miles on the odometer, and with 5k OCI having massive sludge. Mechanics are mocking the 5K OCI as being too long of an interval for those engines.
Personally I do 4k OCI with synthetic oil.

Honestly, it's your vehicle, you are free to do what makes you happy.

But 1 thing I always ask myself is, before I go off and do anything maintenance wise,
I ask myself, would a soccer mom doing 3k to 5k/6month OCI with cheapest oil and filter be maintaining her car better than me.
If the answer is yes, then I stop myself from doing what I was about to do.

Another thing I sometimes think about is:
My older brother bought a 1999 Lexus RX 300 brand new in 1999, and did 3k OCI for it's entire life, completely unaware
that those engines in general had huge sludge issues. His frequent OCI allowed his SUV to go to 150k miles with no sludge.

Sometimes the people who know the least about oil and car maintenance and who never heard of BITOG maintain their cars better than everyone else.

You seem to be making the statement that a Toyota bulk fill engine oil is the same as HPL. It is not.

 

[Sam_Julier]

The Euro oils are superior to the API SP rated oils.
Within API SP, in my opinion, it becomes unimportant what oil you use.

The important thing is:
[1] How often you change your oil (6 month OCI is ideal).
[2] How close to the full mark you keep your oil level during an OCI (by checking and topping off the fluid as needed),
so your engine never runs low on oil.

If you do #1 and 2, and use the cheapest oil/filter available, you're engines will be in the top 5% of all engines in the US in terms of maintenance, internal engine cleanliness, and least engine wear.

Anyone doing 10k OCI (no matter what oil is used), will be in the bottom 5% of all engines in the US in terms of maintenance, internal engine cleanliness, and least engine wear.

This is just my opinion. But it's based on common sense and real world experiences.

Have you read @tig1 posts?

He’s been running 10K OCI‘s with Mobil 1 since I was a teenager. (I turned 68 last week.)

Your opinion may be based on common sense and real world experience, but not on data.

 

[Bill7]

Why do you believe this, given all the data we have on HPL oils?

Many people on BITOG are praising HPL oils. I honestly never heard of them until I saw the sticky notes at the top of this forum a few months ago. I went to the HPL website, but couldn't find many details about PAO/Esther content, or Viscosity @ 100C or HTHS, etc.
All I could find is a vauge marketing paragraph which seems to be duplicated for each oil which is not giving me any real info or details.

Please help me to understand what about HPL oil makes it the favorite choice of many BITOG posters for the ultimate high end oil choice?
Where do you buy the HPL oil - on their website, or on other websites?
How much would 5 quarts of their best synthetic for street car use cost (in 5W-30 viscosity)?

 

[53' Stude]

Many people on BITOG are praising HPL oils. I honestly never heard of them until I saw the sticky notes at the top of this forum a few months ago. I went to the HPL website, but couldn't find many details about PAO/Esther content, or Viscosity @ 100C or HTHS, etc.
All I could find is a vauge marketing paragraph which seems to be duplicated for each oil which is not giving me any real info or details.

Please help me to understand what about HPL oil makes it the favorite choice of many BITOG posters for the ultimate high end oil choice?
Where do you buy the HPL oil - on their website, or on other websites?
How much would 5 quarts of their best synthetic for street car use cost (in 5W-30 viscosity)?

If you want a oil that cleans and delivers what it says I’d not be questioning WWilson on it. He has way more experience. Also, there is David or high performance lubricants who is a member. Feel free to PM him. HPL oils work as we can see so who cares if you think it’s peoples “favorite”. It’s my and others money that like it and purchase it and like the real results. I’m sorry if I come off rude or whatever but I have spoke with David and he’s a top notch individual and wry helpful. Knowledge is power. Have a great night Bill7

 

[drtyler]

Many people on BITOG are praising HPL oils. I honestly never heard of them until I saw the sticky notes at the top of this forum a few months ago. I went to the HPL website, but couldn't find many details about PAO/Esther content, or Viscosity @ 100C or HTHS, etc.
All I could find is a vauge marketing paragraph which seems to be duplicated for each oil which is not giving me any real info or details.

Please help me to understand what about HPL oil makes it the favorite choice of many BITOG posters for the ultimate high end oil choice?
Where do you buy the HPL oil - on their website, or on other websites?
How much would 5 quarts of their best synthetic for street car use cost (in 5W-30 viscosity)?

Their retail site is https://www.advlubrication.com/

The PDS with viscosity info is available there for each product.

There is also more info about each product in the various stickied threads here on this site.

 

[Astro14]

Many people on BITOG are praising HPL oils. I honestly never heard of them until I saw the sticky notes at the top of this forum a few months ago. I went to the HPL website, but couldn't find many details about PAO/Esther content, or Viscosity @ 100C or HTHS, etc.
All I could find is a vauge marketing paragraph which seems to be duplicated for each oil which is not giving me any real info or details.

Please help me to understand what about HPL oil makes it the favorite choice of many BITOG posters for the ultimate high end oil choice?
Where do you buy the HPL oil - on their website, or on other websites?
How much would 5 quarts of their best synthetic for street car use cost (in 5W-30 viscosity)?

If you read through the sticky - then those questions should have been answered.

What makes them better?

They use Alkylated Napthalenes, PAO, and Ester (Esther is the Aunt from Sanford & Son..) as a base, the best you can get, it's part of why they clean well. They use the best additives, which is why they last a long time in service. The strong HTHS, with very low pour points, are indicators of good ingredients.

They have one of the very best chemists in the business working on their formulations, and their testing lab is impressive.

Many of us have visited their plant, talked with David (owner), seen their lab, seen their methods, and seen their racing success. They even developed the "No VII" product line in response to BITOG member requests - that alone is amazing. Try getting Pennzoil, or Mobil, or any other major manufacturer, to blend an oil to your specifications or desires. The "Overkill 0W20" is another example of custom blending in response to BITOG requests.

Quite a few folks from BITOG visited them last year, with discussion here:

High Performance Lubricants Open House Aug 6,7

Hello. Some people on BITOG have been to our facility and given great reviews. With that in mind we have decided to expand the invitation. I am happy to announce our first open house where we will open our doors to some of our customers and also our friends here at BITOG. The attached flyer will...

bobistheoilguy.com

To buy their products, go to:

Advanced Lubrication, Inc.

Advanced Lubrication, Inc.

www.advlubrication.com

Don't forget to use the "BITOG15" discount code for 15% off. I've bought several cases, they ship in high quality cardboard boxes, much better than Amazon or other web vendors.

Give the following stickies a read-through. Make sure to click on the links for the PDS - and then compare things like pour point and HTHS with other oils.

High Performance Lubricants PCMO Series

This is the first series of our PCMO groups. https://www.hplubricants.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/PC-Engine-Oil-PDS.pdf

bobistheoilguy.com

High Performance Lubricants No VII series engine oils.

Well it took a week longer than planned but we have the No VII series of oils put together. They are consistent with the respective PCMO and Euro series. https://www.hplubricants.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/No-VII-Engine-Oil-PDS.pdf

bobistheoilguy.com

If you would like to visit them yourself, you have an opportunity this year, and quite honestly, it is an education:

2023 HPL Open House

Merry Christmas Eve, I wanted to get a placeholder out there for our 2023 Open House. We learned a lot from the first open house and hope to make this one even better. This year the NHRA returns to Joliet IL for a national event. The date range for this show is May 19-21. I have already spoken...

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[Bill7]

If you read through the sticky - then those questions should have been answered.

What makes them better?

They use Alkylated Napthalenes, PAO, and Ester (Esther is the Aunt from Sanford & Son..) as a base, the best you can get, it's part of why they clean well. They use the best additives, which is why they last a long time in service. The strong HTHS, with very low pour points, are indicators of good ingredients.

They have one of the very best chemists in the business working on their formulations, and their testing lab is impressive.

Many of us have visited their plant, talked with David (owner), seen their lab, seen their methods, and seen their racing success. They even developed the "No VII" product line in response to BITOG member requests - that alone is amazing. Try getting Pennzoil, or Mobil, or any other major manufacturer, to blend an oil to your specifications or desires. The "Overkill 0W20" is another example of custom blending in response to BITOG requests.

Quite a few folks from BITOG visited them last year, with discussion here:

High Performance Lubricants Open House Aug 6,7

Hello. Some people on BITOG have been to our facility and given great reviews. With that in mind we have decided to expand the invitation. I am happy to announce our first open house where we will open our doors to some of our customers and also our friends here at BITOG. The attached flyer will...

bobistheoilguy.com

To buy their products, go to:

Advanced Lubrication, Inc.

Advanced Lubrication, Inc.

www.advlubrication.com

Don't forget to use the "BITOG15" discount code for 15% off. I've bought several cases, they ship in high quality cardboard boxes, much better than Amazon or other web vendors.

Give the following stickies a read-through. Make sure to click on the links for the PDS - and then compare things like pour point and HTHS with other oils.

High Performance Lubricants PCMO Series

This is the first series of our PCMO groups. https://www.hplubricants.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/PC-Engine-Oil-PDS.pdf

bobistheoilguy.com

High Performance Lubricants No VII series engine oils.

Well it took a week longer than planned but we have the No VII series of oils put together. They are consistent with the respective PCMO and Euro series. https://www.hplubricants.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/No-VII-Engine-Oil-PDS.pdf

bobistheoilguy.com

If you would like to visit them yourself, you have an opportunity this year, and quite honestly, it is an education:

2023 HPL Open House

Merry Christmas Eve, I wanted to get a placeholder out there for our 2023 Open House. We learned a lot from the first open house and hope to make this one even better. This year the NHRA returns to Joliet IL for a national event. The date range for this show is May 19-21. I have already spoken...

bobistheoilguy.com

Thanks to all who responded with all for the informative links.

I'm going to spend a few hours going through all the sticky's, links, and pdfs and do some additional research.

My first impression is that HPL seems very similar to RedLine oils, with Esthers, PAO, and a focus on Racing as well as PCMO's. For those of us frustrated with companies like Mobil 1 that seem to be reducing their PAO content every few years to cheapen their product and increase their markup & profits, HPL seems like a breath of fresh air.

One concern I have though is phospherous levels. If some of their oils don't have the API SP donut, can we assume their phosphorus levels are higher than 800 ppm, and could harm Catalytic converter? That is a concern, as cars age their catalytic converters go down in efficiency and their tailpipes odors become a little more noticable. Wouldn't want to accelerate that catalytic converter degredation.

Another concern is I have 1 vehicle that is used infrequently, perhaps every 2 weeks.
Esther's might not be a good choice for that use case.

Also, for a regular passenger car (ex: a Minivan), not sure if any benefit would be realized from brand new to 200k miles with
using HPL PCMO premium plus oil versus using a cheap full synthetic like SuperTech. Probably the only benefit would be longer OCI,
but for those of us who do
Even though UOA's are not meant for comparing engine wear with different oils, would be interesting with 1 vehicle to do 3 consecutive UOA's with HPL PCMO premium plus oil, and then do 3 consecutive UOA's with SuperTech Full Synthetic, and then compare the results.

 

[short]

Bill, stop watching youtube.

 

[Bill7]

Bill, stop watching youtube.

Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 has the latest MB 229.52 certification.
Would be interesting to do some sort of engine wear comparision of HPL Euro 5W-30 versus Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30.

HPL can say they have the best chemistry, most PAO, most Esthers, best VI improver, etc, but could it beat Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 in an engine wear comparison test, or even more simply, could HPL euro 5W-30 satisfy the latest Mercedes 229.52 (not just 229.51)?

 

[dnewton3]

Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 has the latest MB 229.52 certification.
Would be interesting to do some sort of engine wear comparision of HPL Euro 5W-30 versus Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30.

HPL can say they have the best chemistry, most PAO, most Esthers, best VI improver, etc, but could it beat Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 in an engine wear comparison test, or even more simply, could HPL euro 5W-30 satisfy the latest Mercedes 229.52 (not just 229.51)?

There's no practical manner in which any BITOGer is going to be able to directly ascertain the wear differences between similar Mobil 1, HPL, RL, RP, PP, etc. There are very involved, expensive tests which can be done in a lab, but those don't apply here on BITOG.

UOAs can show us how marcro data would reveal the wear trends and wear rates, but even those are things which most BITOGers tend to misunderstand in misinterpret, because they don't understand statistical analysis.

All the premium synthetic lubes are going to be excellent at what they do, and also very likely to be underutilized by most people who use them. Why try to split hairs when the delta (if revealed between any two products) would mean folks still wouldn't change their habits?

 

[Bill7]

There's no practical manner in which any BITOGer is going to be able to directly ascertain the wear differences between similar Mobil 1, HPL, RL, RP, PP, etc. There are very involved, expensive tests which can be done in a lab, but those don't apply here on BITOG.

UOAs can show us how marcro data would reveal the wear trends and wear rates, but even those are things which most BITOGers tend to misunderstand in misinterpret, because they don't understand statistical analysis.

All the premium synthetic lubes are going to be excellent at what they do, and also very likely to be underutilized by most people who use them. Why try to split hairs when the delta (if revealed between any two products) would mean folks still wouldn't change their habits?

So if comparison results will remain unknown forever and very likely are negligible between synthetic brands,
then a convincing case could be made for everyone to use a cheap but quality full synthetic like SuperTech @ $21 for 5 quart jug at Walmart and not spend $90 for HPL or Redline or Amsoil for each oil change.

 

[Nesterenko]

about the 10k OCI.

It all comes down to this:
If you were shopping for a used car and went to see 2 Craigslist advertised cars on the same day with both cars being the same year, similar mileage and condition, but 1 owner doing 3k/6 month OCI's, while the other owner experimenting with 11k/2 year OCI's, which car would you want to buy? We all know the answer to that.

3k/6 month OCI's here we go, back to the egg. 9.5 years on Bitog and this is what you're trying to feed us?

 

[OVERKILL]

Glad to hear that. Not saying everyone ends up with sludge, but just saying if everyone did 4k/6 month OCI's, not a single engine in the US would have sludge.

That's not true.

Sludge doesn't just emerge out of the ether once you pass a certain mileage threshold, and oil doesn't wear in "miles", just like you don't charge an EV in "miles" but people use that as a the metric.

It's quite possible for a cheap oil (particularly older oils with older approvals) to become overwhelmed in a demanding application during the interval you cited. Let's say that's a local delivery driver that idles the vehicle. Mileage is not representative of hours on the oil in this case. Conversely, an airport limo will rack up massive miles in comparison to the number of hours on the oil.

This is what more advanced (that aren't just mileage counters) OLM's work to define OCI's based on. The service profile of the lubricant, which then impacts how long it is suitable for use. This takes into account things like temperatures of both oil and coolant, hours on the oil, fuel consumed...etc.

An engine that short trips and idles a ton will have significantly more /time/ on the oil in 5,000 miles than one that's used for an 80 mile commute each day.

On top of all of this, oils are not blended equally and engines are not equally demanding of their lubricants. Some engines produce significant contamination, others run incredibly clean.

And then you have sump size. A 4L sump mated to a high strung engine is going to result in a lubricant having a much harder life than in a 7L sump mated to a conservatively designed V8, like say a Ford Modular engine.

Sludge, varnish and lacquer, which are the three main deposit types, require different conditions to occur. Sludge requires moisture for example, while the other two don't.

Many mistake various stages of other deposits for sludge.

With these anecdotes about OCI length (and yes, Toyota just uses a mileage counter that doesn't factor in operating conditions, not a true OLM) the other obvious factor is the quality of the lubricant. If these vehicles are dealer serviced, perhaps TGMO just isn't very good.

 

[Bill7]

3k/6 month OCI's here we go, back to the egg. 9.5 years on Bitog and this is what you're trying to feed us?

My brother bought a 1999 Lexus RX300 brand new in 1999. He was totally unaware about these Toyota 3.0L V6 having the high incidence of sludge issues. He changed his oil ever 3k/6 months, and that engine never had any sludge issues.

After conversations with Trav years ago about the 2005 to 2007 Honda Odyssey's getting sludge due to VCM 1 causing certain parts of the engine to get so hot that it overwhelms the oil and causes sludge, my OCI is 4k, and I'm using a cheap but decent full synthetic: Walmart SuperTech.

I'm simply making the case that changing your ok every 3k to 4k miles with the cheapest full synthetic oil/filter available might just be better for the engine's longevity than changing it every 10k miles with a $90 an oil change oil.