Why do you believe this, given all the data we have on HPL oils?
2016 Dodge Charger 3.6L 66,000 total miles 11,000 miles on HPL 5w-30 HDEO CJ-4
- Thread starter wwillson
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On youtube, the Toyota "Car care nut" Toyota Master Diagnostic technician who worked over 10 years at a Toyota dealer and who has re-built hundreds of Toyota engines says the main reason for their chronic oil burning across all models / years, is the 10k OCI.
He makes the case that UOA's are worthless as they don't show you the sludge on the inside of the engine, where oil jets get plugged up and piston rings get clogged, and a decent amount of the dirty oil from the last oil change doesn't completely drain out and contaminates the new oil. So many of the engines he takes out of 5 to 10 year old Toyota's need a complete rebuild with repair bill over $6k,
and he attributes all the issues to the 10k OCI.
Also, there are several youtube vidoes of new Ford Ecoboost engines with 15,000 total miles on the odometer, and with 5k OCI having massive sludge. Mechanics are mocking the 5K OCI as being too long of an interval for those engines.
Personally I do 4k OCI with synthetic oil.
Honestly, it's your vehicle, you are free to do what makes you happy.
But 1 thing I always ask myself is, before I go off and do anything maintenance wise,
I ask myself, would a soccer mom doing 3k to 5k/6month OCI with cheapest oil and filter be maintaining her car better than me.
If the answer is yes, then I stop myself from doing what I was about to do.
Another thing I sometimes think about is:
My older brother bought a 1999 Lexus RX 300 brand new in 1999, and did 3k OCI for it's entire life, completely unaware
that those engines in general had huge sludge issues. His frequent OCI allowed his SUV to go to 150k miles with no sludge.
Sometimes the people who know the least about oil and car maintenance and who never heard of BITOG maintain their cars better than everyone else.
Since you didn't address my question, can I assume to you all oils are equal?
The Euro oils are superior to the API SP rated oils.
Within API SP, in my opinion, it becomes unimportant what oil you use.
The important thing is:
[1] How often you change your oil (6 month OCI is ideal).
[2] How close to the full mark you keep your oil level during an OCI (by checking and topping off the fluid as needed),
so your engine never runs low on oil.
If you do #1 and 2, and use the cheapest oil/filter available, you're engines will be in the top 5% of all engines in the US in terms of maintenance, internal engine cleanliness, and least engine wear.
Anyone doing 10k OCI (no matter what oil is used), will be in the bottom 5% of all engines in the US in terms of maintenance, internal engine cleanliness, and least engine wear.
This is just my opinion. But it's based on common sense and real world experiences.
If you agree that "Euro oils are superior" - then I have to ask - why? What makes them superior?
Why wouldn't an oil whose performance exceeds that of those "Euro oils" be OK over an extended drain interval?
That's what we're really talking about here - better base stocks, better additives - yields a better oil.
Not "severe neglect" when using a better oil.
The Euro oils (ACEA C3 or A3/B4) oils, especially the ones with the MB 229.5x approvals, have to pass very stringent hard to pass tests for engine wear, sludge protection, etc. So any oil with a MB 229.5x approval will be superior to an API SP oil.
The European engines run at very high temperatures (some BMW's run at 230F as normal operation), and need a better oil.
Also, in Europe, engines need to be able to run at very high speeds for hours at a time (Ex: The Autoban).
But for American and Japanese cars, there really isn't any advantage for using a better oil than API SP for the first 5k miles of an OCI.
I'd love to see the following data on the rebuilds that Toyota mechanic claims to have done.
1) Number of each specific engine as well as the specific models. This goes to income level.
2) Education and income disbursement of each vehicle. This goes to "poverty state of mind".
3) Region where these rebuilds occurred. This goes to climate.
4) Source of data which enabled the mechanic to claim 10K OCI's were involved.
Likely all he had was that dealerships maintenance records.
5) Type of oil used.
Everyone knows Americans neglect their cars. Couldn't these vehicles have suffered 20K-50K OCI's as well?
Take the OCI data for clean engines and stick to that. Oh yeah, WE know this.
1) Number of each specific engine as well as the specific models. This goes to income level.
2) Education and income disbursement of each vehicle. This goes to "poverty state of mind".
3) Region where these rebuilds occurred. This goes to climate.
4) Source of data which enabled the mechanic to claim 10K OCI's were involved.
Likely all he had was that dealerships maintenance records.
5) Type of oil used.
Everyone knows Americans neglect their cars. Couldn't these vehicles have suffered 20K-50K OCI's as well?
Take the OCI data for clean engines and stick to that. Oh yeah, WE know this.
The Toyota "Car Care Nut" mechanic is a very honest likeable mechanic on youtube with hundreds of video's.
After working in Chicago at a Toyota Dealership for 10+ years and becoming a Toyota Master Certified Diagnostic mechanic,
he opened up his own repair show where he only works on Toyota/Lexus/Scion vehicles, as that is all he knows.
He talks about how he has removed engines from all toyota models hundreds of times over his 10 year career.
I trust his insight as anyone who is an expert mechanic like him and spends hours a day taking engines out of vehicles, an then replacing
their short blocks and seeing the constant pattern of gummed up piston rings caused by dirty oil with the 10k OCI. He has no reason or financial gain to lie about the 10k OCI.
It all comes down to this:
If you were shopping for a used car and went to see 2 Craigslist advertised cars on the same day with both cars being the same year, similar mileage and condition, but 1 owner doing 3k/6 month OCI's, while the other owner experimenting with 11k/2 year OCI's, which car would you want to buy? We all know the answer to that.
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Absolutely. I was thinking to sharpen my (our) focus on who does it right and who does it wrong.
I've always have been skeptical of lengthy OCI's.
Too many "good circumstances" have to align (long trips, correctly chosen oil products) to make such OCI's OK.
I've always have been skeptical of lengthy OCI's.
Too many "good circumstances" have to align (long trips, correctly chosen oil products) to make such OCI's OK.
Very true. This will be my next oil I use. Heck with PCMO stuff and all the hype
What about the sludge in the engine caused by the dirty 10k oil. What about the clogged oil jets, the gummed up piston rings. That will never show up on a UOA. When your engine has groves in the cylinder wall due to the gummed up piston rings caused by dirty 10k oil, and can't even be rebuilt, and you need a $10,000 new engine, those Used Oil Analysis companies are not going to help you.
I currently do 4k oil changes with synthetic oil with HTHS = 3.2. I do an engine flush every 2 years just to keep my engine's internal parts as clean as possible.
I was thinking about extending the OCI to 5k.
I watched some youtube video's of Ford dealership mechanics saying that several Ford Ecoboost engines are experiencing severe sludge with 5k OCI. One example had 15k miles on the odometer and had three 5k oil changes, and had an engine full of sludge.
For those of you doing long OCI's, it's not too late. Do a few short OCI intervals to slowly and safely clean out your engine,
and then do an engine flush. Then do short OCI's. Do a Transmission drain/fill too. Change your pcv valve. Put your vehicle
on a patch to reaching 300k miles.
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Your imagination is impressive - brought on by YouTube tales, perhaps?
While UOAs have limits on what they can show, the strong TBN in Wayne's case shows that everything you imagine is unlikely. Your list of woes begins when the TBN is overcome and acids form in the oil, linking up the long chains into sludge, etc.
His engine isn't plugged up, clogged, gummed up - or any of the other horrors you describe - because those acidic conditions have yet to happen. That's what he is monitoring.
There is a big difference between what your Hero has seen and what is taking place in Wayne's car. The messed up Toyota engines are the result of neglected maintenance, not just a particular oil change interval. I have no doubt that your Hero has seen awful engines.
But the cause for them is complex, not just oil change interval. Many of those owners likely ran the wrong specification of oil, or neglected to change it when it was supposed to be changed, or ignored repairs. None of that is true for Wayne's Charger.
You've already admitted that oil varies in quality - Wayne is using the best - while your YouTuber's customers likely used the worst.
I've seen inside engines with 10,000 mile intervals. Spotless.
Here is one:
Under the valve covers, 2005 Mercedes SL600
While changing the sparkplugs on my wife’s roadster, I discovered a minor valve cover leak. Mercedes books about 8 hours* for a sparkplug change on the car, which has the M275 V-12 engine with 2 plugs per cylinder. Yes, that’s a total of 24 iridium plugs. since the coils have to come out to get...
bobistheoilguy.com
I have other pictures of it - 10,000 mile intervals. Runs like new. Looks like new. My S600 has the same engine, same change interval, same spotless engine.
How about this guy, how did he get to nearly a million miles with long intervals? By your argument, that engine should have died a horrible death from sludge about 900,000 miles ago.
2003 Honda Accord Running for Nearly a Million Miles
https://www.thedrive.com/news/heres-how-to-keep-a-2003-honda-accord-running-for-nearly-1m-miles?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialflow&fbclid=IwAR11cTyiRbhNbuYwTqXeywJ9t4eITCL18tUk7J9RzWZV-jhWZbnDe42c9E8 "I have learned (at least for this car) that some parts really need...
bobistheoilguy.com
Another view of the horribly neglected engine run with 10,000 intervals. Photo from underneath with the oil pan off (previous “mechanic” had stripped the drain plug threads, safer to do the repair with the pan off).
There’s more to the story than the oversimplification of just mileage.
By the way, that oil clinging to the parts had been in the engine for a couple of years, and nearly 10,000 miles...
There’s more to the story than the oversimplification of just mileage.
By the way, that oil clinging to the parts had been in the engine for a couple of years, and nearly 10,000 miles...
What a load of BS. I don’t believe any of this for a split second.
Astro14 - You made some good points. Thanks for those photos and url links. I will take a look and keep an open mind.
Not everyone doing 10k OCI experiences issues. Your photo of your Mercedes S600 engine is a good example.
You have an impressive list of cars in your signature. The Mercedes S600's must be a lot of fun to own.
Perhaps one reason I can think of for longer OCI is the higher cost of doing oil changes these days.
Many shops charge $70+ for an oil change, and give you bulk oil.
My local Honda Dealer charges $70 for an "Express" oil change. They send you to an auxilliary building where they have young
non-mechanics using bulk oil (which I found out is from the oil company "Gulf"). When I went there for an oil change, they usually always just put in 4 quarts, leaving the oil in the middle of the dipstick full/add lines. I think that's another cost cutting move by the dealer, they save a 1/2 quart of oil with every oil change. So after that I prefer to buy my own oil and premeasure it so oil is always at full mark.
I buy my fram ultra oil filters and my synthetic oil at Amazon or Walmart in the 5 quart jugs, and have a local tire shop do my oil change for only $14 + tax in labor. I give them the oil and filter. So I am getting a premium oil change for about $48.
I think for 10k oil changes to be successful, you need to have an engine with no defects.
If you have an engine prone to sludge, where perhaps the PCV system is not designed correctly and the oil doesn't get enough ventillation, the only thing you can do is frequent oil changes to compensate.
When I see the black murky oil coming out of a 10k oil change, it makes me a little scared for the engine - sludge + engine wear.
I know scientifically black oil that is murky/dirty looking may not be a problem, but I prefer to change my oil once its gets dark brown (which in my vehicles is around 4k miles).
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Watch some youtube videos of mechanics removing engines from newer vehicles like Toyota Camry's or Ford's with the Ecoboost engines. See the sludge for yourself, and the mechanics blaming the 10k OCI.
You can argue the mechanics are wrong, but all mechanics I see all recommend 3k to 5k OCI's.
I've never seen any mechanic either in real life or on youtube recommending more than a 5k OCI.
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Honestly, I wouldn’t chance that engine, it’s not easily replaceable. Both cost and ease of removal (twin turbo V-12). So, I would gladly change it too often if I thought there was any risk.
But here’s the interesting (to me) part. The oil in that sump photo really had been in service for a couple of years, and yet it didn’t look much darker than new.
I know, I know, you can’t tell anything from color, but I was surprised at how clean it looked.
I did a UOA on the S600, Mobil 1 0w40, at 9,000+/- miles a few years back. I’m aware of the limitations of the UOA, but the TBN was still pretty strong.
Good oil, properly running engine, even with around town use, no worries.
But here’s the interesting (to me) part. The oil in that sump photo really had been in service for a couple of years, and yet it didn’t look much darker than new.
I know, I know, you can’t tell anything from color, but I was surprised at how clean it looked.
I did a UOA on the S600, Mobil 1 0w40, at 9,000+/- miles a few years back. I’m aware of the limitations of the UOA, but the TBN was still pretty strong.
M1 0W40 8,946 mi Mercedes V-12 (M275)
Code: Mercedes Benz 5.5L (M275) V-12 Twin Turbo Mobil 1 0W/40 8,946 Miles Blackstone comments: There's really no bad news to report for this first sample from your S600's V-12. Metals look great here compared to universal averages, which are based on an oil run just half as long as...
bobistheoilguy.com
Good oil, properly running engine, even with around town use, no worries.
I really like the Mercedes from the 1980's and 1990's. At that time, Mercedes told their engineers to build the best most reliable vehicles without regard to cost. Many of those cars made it to 400k miles. Sadly, in the latest issue of Consumer Reports Magazine, Mercedes is now the least reliable brand of all the 25+ car makers listed for new car reliability. Also, the astronomical parts costs and dealer costs make total cost of ownership a little too high for me. I was thinking about buying a Mercedes S600 from the late 1990's where depreciation makes them affordable and the parts are still readily available.
My 2010 Escape had OCIs ranging from 7k to 12k miles. Owned it from 60k to 130k. When I did the Valve cover gasket it was nice and clean inside. None of the sludge you say should have been there. Lol.
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