2015 Honda CR-V AWD excessive oil cunsumption

[Mainia]

If it was my Honda I would run a high Ester oil. You have changed out the PVC valve and that would my first move too. I would run Redline Performance oil (Not the Professional oil non Ester oil) for only 6,000 miles and Fram Ultra because you will be cleaning some sludge out I would be willing to bet. If that did not fix it my next move would be to run Valvoline Restore 10-30. This oil is made for Cummins engine to free sticky rings and would be an directly made for this job, it is a little harder to find and cost more the the Redline oil. Price is moot point here since you dropping big money every 1000 miles anyway. You need to fix this problem, because you car has an oil addiction. I would add full throttle 5 mph to 70 mph on on ramps on a semi regular basis to add pressure behind the rings. What ever oil you try, remember to order extra to keep it up to the full line on what your car normally eats.

Non Turbo oil
https://www.redlineoil.com/5w30-motor-oil

Turbo oil, Lower Calcium
https://www.redlineoil.com/euro-series-5w30-motor-oil


Here is a thread on the Valvoline Restore with a Honda. If I was him, I would of ran Redline after his Restore dump and only then call it a finished test. An extreme problem sometimes dictates an extreme over the top action.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...m-blue-restore-10w-30-in-a-honda-2-4l.316395/

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[RateNate]

Thank you, guys, for your comments. I would like to hear your comments on using High Mileage oil. I am not in favor of any oil additive which flush engine. What I heard is that VVT can be ruined. This car has only 58,000 miles on it to justify any play with all "magic" chemicals, IMO.
I hope that High Mileage oil can help cleaning stuck (if it is the reason) oil control piston rings in the long run. I do not mind to wait and am in no hurry. Please share your thoughts on this.
And one more, in 2015 Honda CR-V a PCV valve (17130-5A2-A01) looks different from other PCV valves. It is installed horizontally and looks like a cartridge. Does it have any spring inside to work as a check valve?

I would do some WOT runs to 60 here and there just make sure good tires and a clear road/freeway for two 5k oil changes with a synthetic oil or one 10k if your doing that. It helped my lexus with low tension rings to burn literally no more oil. And it did burn close to two quarts on my first oci with whatever the PO put in.

 

[lk77]

For those guys who recommend changing oil viscosity, please watch this short but very informative video.

 

[kschachn]

For those guys who recommend changing oil viscosity, please watch this short but very informative video.

Poor old Pat. That video is been discussed multiple times on here. I would not base any such decision on its contents.

 

[GR_CoB]

For those guys who recommend changing oil viscosity, please watch this short but very informative video.

Yea, I'd look elsewhere for advise. Oil viscosity is chosen based on usage and climate. Oil type is where engine condition comes into play. Such as using Ester oils for achieving a certain level of cleaning, for example.

 

[lk77]

If Pat is too old for you, what about this guy? He mentions a thicker oil as well. I am not going to argue with you 'cause not as knowledgeable as you guys. But just want to ask you a question, on what base are you giving your advice to go thicker? I have asked my initial question about a particular Honda engine, are you familiar with that engine? Are you sure that thicker oil will not affect anything adversely in that particular engine (including i-VTEC)?

 

[RateNate]

I ac

This guy sounds knowledgeable. He is talking about Toyota engines.

I actually quoted this youtube video on my lexus burning oil thread. He definitely does seem to know his stuff and I told him what I did as well and he never thought of that to work.

 

[GR_CoB]

If Pat is too old for you, what about this guy? He mentions a thicker oil as well. I am not going to argue with you 'cause not as knowledgeable as you guys. But just want to ask you a question, on what base are you giving your advice to go thicker? I have asked my initial question about a particular Honda engine, are you familiar with that engine? Are you sure that thicker oil will not affect anything adversely in that particular engine (including i-VTEC)?

Straight from 2015 Honda CR-V owners manual:

"If Honda Green oil or 0W-20 oil is not available, use 5W-30 or 0W-30 oil."
"Use a Genuine Honda Motor oil or another commercial engine oil of suitable SAE viscosity for the ambient temperature as shown. 0W-20 oil is formulated to improve fuel economy."

So no, a thicker oil will not damage your engine, as Honda themselves list 0W-20, 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-30, 5W-40, 10W-30, and 10W-40 as acceptable oil grades for that engine, if climate allows. See attached PDF files of the owners manual.

 

[Sonofsonof]

This mechanism you describe does not makes sense.

Most PCV is filtered inlet port air, ring bypassed upper volatiles and fogged oil vapour.

Also the PCV is just a metering port, that pill is a anti-backfire device. I have never serviced a stuck one, and that would be in
a completely neglected engine with no oil change for 2 years.
In carburetor engines, we would just clean the old metal ones in the part washer and reinstall.

The % of PCV as an inlet charge is very small. The constituents will be completely burnt in the combustion cycle.

Stuck rings are typically caused by low engine loading with brief and infrequent high loading, then and poorly formulated or expended oil.
Many engine designs have experimented with low tension ring designs that afford poor sealing.

If you DO have a hot stuck ring its likely #2 and #1; not the oil control which has generous ports for the clean filtered oil to cycle through.

I would call Honda Customer service and see what they can do for you. But in the mean time change oil brands and substitute a quart with one of higher grade. Likely may not work but worth a go and the engine will likely enjoy it,

Apologies. I neglected to answer something you raised...

You said that if rings were to stick, it would more likely to be the Top Ring or Second (Scraper) Ring & not the lower down Oil Control Ring.

This isn't how it works. The top two rings are 'self-cleaning'. They are designed to rotate & the squared-off end of the piston ring sort of acts as a chisel, gouging off carbon as it rotates. Furthermore, the top two rings (but especially the Top Ring) is purposely designed to 'splay' on the downward combustion stroke. The high pressure gas in the combustion chamber, in attempting to force its way through the rings, gets behind the Top Ring's inner face & pressures it outwards to push against the bore (& in so doing, create a tighter seal). This combination of rotation & repetitive lateral splaying (followed by relaxation) is usually enough to effect sufficient groove cleaning & keep the top two rings mobile.

The Oil Control Ring however is different. It does not rotate. Nor does it splay (the pressure falls dramatically the further down the piston you go, so there's less outward 'push' on the rear face of the ring). As a result, the OCR is not self-cleaning. Which is a pity because OCRs, especially the coiled spring type have a lot of metal surface area for grot to attach to.

I don't know if they exist in the US but over here you can buy coiled, wire wool pads to put in your electric kettle. The disproportionately large metal surface area they present means that lime scale preferentially attachs to the pad rather than on the insides of the kettle itself. Think of the OCR being the wire wool pad! It's now possible to picture how it will gunk up over time.

 

[lk77]

Straight from 2015 Honda CR-V owners manual:

"If Honda Green oil or 0W-20 oil is not available, use 5W-30 or 0W-30 oil."
"Use a Genuine Honda Motor oil or another commercial engine oil of suitable SAE viscosity for the ambient temperature as shown. 0W-20 oil is formulated to improve fuel economy."

So no, a thicker oil will not damage your engine, as Honda themselves list 0W-20, 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-30, 5W-40, 10W-30, and 10W-40 as acceptable oil grades for that engine, if climate allows. See attached PDF files of the owners manual.

It looks like Honda provides different Owners manual for Europe and North America. They do not mention any green Honda oil or different viscosity in the local manuals. Only 0W-20.

This link provides specs for European CR-V models, the engine in the US and Canada models: Earth Dreams Technology 2.4-liter direct-injected DOHC i-VTEC inline 4-cylinder engine produces 181 lb-ft (245 N·m) of torque, an 11% increase over the previous engine’s 163 lb-ft (221 N·m) while making the same 185 horsepower (138 kW).

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Apologies. I neglected to answer something you raised...

You said that if rings were to stick, it would more likely to be the Top Ring or Second (Scraper) Ring & not the lower down Oil Control Ring.

This isn't how it works. The top two rings are 'self-cleaning'. They are designed to rotate & the squared-off end of the piston ring sort of acts as a chisel, gouging off carbon as it rotates. Furthermore, the top two rings (but especially the Top Ring) is purposely designed to 'splay' on the downward combustion stroke. The high pressure gas in the combustion chamber, in attempting to force its way through the rings, gets behind the Top Ring's inner face & pressures it outwards to push against the bore (& in so doing, create a tighter seal). This combination of rotation & repetitive lateral splaying (followed by relaxation) is usually enough to effect sufficient groove cleaning & keep the top two rings mobile.

The Oil Control Ring however is different. It does not rotate. Nor does it splay (the pressure falls dramatically the further down the piston you go, so there's less outward 'push' on the rear face of the ring). As a result, the OCR is not self-cleaning. Which is a pity because OCRs, especially the coiled spring type have a lot of metal surface area for grot to attach to.

I don't know if they exist in the US but over here you can buy coiled, wire wool pads to put in your electric kettle. The disproportionately large metal surface area they present means that lime scale preferentially attachs to the pad rather than on the insides of the kettle itself. Think of the OCR being the wire wool pad! It's now possible to picture how it will gunk up over time.

Most neglected engines I've disassembled did not have stuck OC rings. Rather gunked and stuck #2 and sometimes #1 where there has likely been a heated crown on shutdown. I Always Idle for two mins before a hot shut down.

If you are regularly tearing down engine for sequence tests I would guess you have seen more issues that apply to current deign theory. My teardowns - admittedly only a couple handfuls - have been with older fully skirted pistons with moderated to high tension rings - your 60's and 70's engine "low power density" technology. I would think that clean and quality oil in a well run engine would not display sticking too often. I notice it as cylinder imbalance, and I am quite aware of it.
I had found that tri- synthetic oils or similar good formulation provided less instance of "perceived" sticking. These oils seem to be an exception rather than the rule today in the "Synthetic" oil market in north America - and now beyond.
-Ken

 

[GR_CoB]

It looks like Honda provides different Owners manual for Europe and North America. They do not mention any green Honda oil or different viscosity in the local manuals. Only 0W-20.

This link provides specs for European CR-V models, the engine in the US and Canada models: Earth Dreams Technology 2.4-liter direct-injected DOHC i-VTEC inline 4-cylinder engine produces 181 lb-ft (245 N·m) of torque, an 11% increase over the previous engine’s 163 lb-ft (221 N·m) while making the same 185 horsepower (138 kW).

If you look at these pages again you will see that there is a reference chart for "European Models" specifically, and a separate oil chart "Except European Models" with the wide range of oil grades listed. All of that applies to gasoline/petrol Honda engines. Diesel Honda engines have a separate oil recommendation chart/page in the same Owners Manual, so nothing listed here applies to Diesel Honda engines in Europe. The reason why the owners manuals are different in US vs. the rest of the world is because US has CAFE regulations, and to favor them most vehicle manufacturers list the most fuel efficient oil grade in the Owners Manual as the only grade. This is because the most fuel efficient oil grade is the one used in EPA tests, and to avoid paying billions of dollars in environmental fines the vehicle manufacturer's only recommend the fuel saving oil grades in Owner's manuals. Thankfully more and more manufacturer's actually started to add a note that "higher viscosity should be used in severe conditions, such as towing, track use, mountainous driving" as 0w20 is developed with fuel economy in mind, not necessarily ultimate engine protection and wear prevention.

 

[lk77]

After 500 miles I have 0 oil loss. Maybe it is too soon to make a conclusion , but it looks like a new PCV valve helped with my problem. Is there any recommendations on changing a PCV valve, by mileage or by symptoms only? Is it possible that folks who used some strong detergents and stated that it helped (in case they maintained their engines properly) just cleaned their PCV valve by running this flush or using some strong detergents/additives? Of course, in case a PCV valve wasn't changed.

 

[dtownfb]

Glad it's working. I believe most people change the PCV valve based on symptoms.

The only thing I would change is try to add a couple highway trips if you can. Good luck.

 

[lk77]

If you look at these pages again you will see that there is a reference chart for "European Models" specifically, and a separate oil chart "Except European Models" with the wide range of oil grades listed. All of that applies to gasoline/petrol Honda engines. Diesel Honda engines have a separate oil recommendation chart/page in the same Owners Manual, so nothing listed here applies to Diesel Honda engines in Europe. The reason why the owners manuals are different in US vs. the rest of the world is because US has CAFE regulations, and to favor them most vehicle manufacturers list the most fuel efficient oil grade in the Owners Manual as the only grade. This is because the most fuel efficient oil grade is the one used in EPA tests, and to avoid paying billions of dollars in environmental fines the vehicle manufacturer's only recommend the fuel saving oil grades in Owner's manuals. Thankfully more and more manufacturer's actually started to add a note that "higher viscosity should be used in severe conditions, such as towing, track use, mountainous driving" as 0w20 is developed with fuel economy in mind, not necessarily ultimate engine protection and wear prevention.

That chart with ambient temperature and viscosity is an absolutely confusing chart.
According to this source : " ... An engine oil's operating temperature does not change significantly even in different ambient temperatures, so the recommended viscosity is quite consistent for various applications. The main difference is the viscosity grade "W," which relates to the starting temperature, as this will determine the lubricant viscosity, its pumpability and readiness to lubricate the engine..."

An ambient temperature affects only a "cold" start and practically doesn't affect engine operating oil temperature (considering that cooling system maintained and operates properly).
This article explains it:

"...
For most machines - like car engines - the critical point of operation is at startup before reaching operating temperatures. In cold weather lubricants with adequate viscosities at start up temperature are required.
Engine Oil
The table below indicates appropriate engine oil viscosity vs. outside (start up) temperatures ..."

It doesn't mean that you have to select your viscosity (the second part of the oil grade - at operating engine temperature, which is around 100-110C) from this chart. If your engine requires 20 you can't use 40 (IMO) only because it is hot outside. I am not a mechanic or a mechanical engineer, but this is just a bleeping oil and it shouldn't be so complicated and confusing for drivers.

I will stick to the manufacturer's recommended viscosity, you do whatever you consider is best for your car.

 

[GR_CoB]

That chart with ambient temperature and viscosity is an absolutely confusing chart.
According to this source : " ... An engine oil's operating temperature does not change significantly even in different ambient temperatures, so the recommended viscosity is quite consistent for various applications. The main difference is the viscosity grade "W," which relates to the starting temperature, as this will determine the lubricant viscosity, its pumpability and readiness to lubricate the engine..."
View attachment 46242

An ambient temperature affects only a "cold" start and practically doesn't affect engine operating oil temperature (considering that cooling system maintained and operates properly).
This article explains it:

"...
For most machines - like car engines - the critical point of operation is at startup before reaching operating temperatures. In cold weather lubricants with adequate viscosities at start up temperature are required.
Engine Oil
The table below indicates appropriate engine oil viscosity vs. outside (start up) temperatures ..."

It doesn't mean that you have to select your viscosity (the second part of the oil grade - at operating engine temperature, which is around 100-110C) from this chart. If your engine requires 20 you can't use 40 (IMO) only because it is hot outside. I am not a mechanic or a mechanical engineer, but this is just a bleeping oil and it shouldn't be so complicated and confusing for drivers.

I will stick to the manufacturer's recommended viscosity, you do whatever you consider is best for your car.

The number before W is for ambient temps. The number after W is for operating temperature. I recommended stepping up a grade out of the assumption that 0W20 being diluted by fuel due to direct injection becomes "thin" enough to get past the rings and burn. The idea was that a higher oil grade will help offset the possible fuel dilution (reducing blow-by), as well as provide a stronger fluid film on internal engine parts, without causing any downsides to the performance of the engine. But since replacing Positive Crankcase Ventilation valve helped in your case, there doesn't seem to be a need for changing oil grades now. Hopefully the problem won't return anytime soon, but keep us updated. Happy motoring!

 

[doublebase]

I’ll be happy for you if it was/is the PCV valve, but unless there’s a campaign calling for a redesigned PCVvalve from Honda (due to oil consumption), I’d gather there is no way the PCV valve is causing your problems at such low mileage.

I’d do this...change the oil brand. Give that a shot. If that doesn’t help, try the engine treatment that everyone has been suggesting. You shouldn’t be burning through a quart every 1,000 miles with an engine that only has 50,000 miles on it. Sounds like oil control rings are already stuck...I imagine it’s common on this engine and if so, a soak or engine treatment might actually help. But it would be great if it just was the PCV valve.

 

[FordMan59]

If the PCV doesn't correct the issue I'd first try another brand of oil, some brands just burn off faster in some engines. My second choice would be going to a heavier weight oil. Third I'd probably try a cleaning agent that's added to the oil and only run for a few minutes just prior to changing it. If you don't want to use this type cleaner Lube Control LC-20 claims to be a very good cleaner. With it you add 1-2 oz. per quart of oil at oil change and 1 oz. every 1K miles. They've also claimed for years that 10K mile OCI's are safe using their product. I've driven several cars to over 200K miles with no or minimal oil usage. I personally use 10w40 conventional oil in all my vehicles and ran an '88 Ford Escort to 518K miles without ever using a drop of high mileage or synthetic oil in it. As best as I remember it had between 250-300K miles on it when it started using enough oil between changes that I'd top it back off but I don't wait until I'm a full quart low. I'll admit by the time it had 450K miles it was using/leaking probably a quart every 500-750 miles. I really don't know how much it was burning and how much it was leaking but it was leaking at the rear main seal. When I'm showing 1/2 quart low I top it off. Two of my current cars are over 200K miles and both use approximately 1-1.5 quarts between 5K mile intervals. I recently started using a bottle of STP type treatment in one of the cars with over 200K miles and it seems to have slowed the consumption.

 

[nicholas]

Also look at BG EPR......its wild at cleaning ring packs and intervals.
Good stuff, I have used it in a few different engines

 

[PeterGreen]

If the PCV doesn't correct the issue I'd first try another brand of oil, some brands just burn off faster in some engines. My second choice would be going to a heavier weight oil. Third I'd probably try a cleaning agent that's added to the oil and only run for a few minutes just prior to changing it. If you don't want to use this type cleaner Lube Control LC-20 claims to be a very good cleaner. With it you add 1-2 oz. per quart of oil at oil change and 1 oz. every 1K miles. They've also claimed for years that 10K mile OCI's are safe using their product. I've driven several cars to over 200K miles with no or minimal oil usage. I personally use 10w40 conventional oil in all my vehicles and ran an '88 Ford Escort to 518K miles without ever using a drop of high mileage or synthetic oil in it. As best as I remember it had between 250-300K miles on it when it started using enough oil between changes that I'd top it back off but I don't wait until I'm a full quart low. I'll admit by the time it had 450K miles it was using/leaking probably a quart every 500-750 miles. I really don't know how much it was burning and how much it was leaking but it was leaking at the rear main seal. When I'm showing 1/2 quart low I top it off. Two of my current cars are over 200K miles and both use approximately 1-1.5 quarts between 5K mile intervals. I recently started using a bottle of STP type treatment in one of the cars with over 200K miles and it seems to have slowed the consumption.

How do you buy Lube Control LC-20? their website charges $21 for shipping.