2015 BMW N20 X1 UOA 5K MILES NON-EURO OIL: ROUND 2

[KEVINK0000]

Other uoas in a vacuum really aren’t helpful.

Only thing interesting is swing in universal averages, tends to suggest a fairly small sample size.

Looks like engine is hard on oil.

Agree run on approved oil would be interesting, not necessarily meaningful, but interesting.

Also would like to see what filters look like.

I am not sure if the oil is thickening that much at all. The VOA shows an oxidation number of 7, and my UOA shows it at 8 after 5k, if I am reading that right, and the VOA is the same oil. Maybe someone can chime in on that.

As I have said previously, I think the swings in iron content are due to chain replacement or not. The earlier engines had the chain issue 2012MY-2015MY. The chain in my son's car had already been replaced about 20k miles ago when this sample was taken.

This engine is "regarded" as being hard on oil by the BMW community, but besides the fuel/and chain issue, I am not sure I agree.

 

[KEVINK0000]

And I want to thank everyone at this point for raising questions, being curious, and having a discussion. Again, I do not have some Master Plan about this. Its taking twists and turns on its own. Now we get to talk about Boron!

 

[DuckRyder]

I am not sure if the oil is thickening that much at all. The VOA shows an oxidation number of 7, and my UOA shows it at 8 after 5k, if I am reading that right, and the VOA is the same oil.

With the fuel content… it’s thickening without doubt.

 

[KEVINK0000]

On the next sample, which will be a 7000+ mile interval, I will send a sample to BS again, and get a VOA and UOA from OAI. Yes, it is my money, thank you for your concern.

 

[KEVINK0000]

With the fuel content… it’s thickening without doubt.

You really think so? VOA shows 11.6 vis.

 

[DuckRyder]

I do, but I will go back and look again when I have more time.

 

[02zx9r rev2]

He's derailing his topic on purpose as he still hasn't answered at least the one question as to why he is doing this.

By the looks of it, I don’t think you will ever get the answers you are seeking.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

You really think so? VOA shows 11.6 vis.

Look up Rotella Gas Truck 5W-30 UOAs. The previous version of QS was sold as RTG. This particular oil shears to a 20 grade pretty fast, so it can thicken back up. I think Shell has overdone it with this one. It's due to an API engine sequence test, but I can't remember which one it was, but it has to do with oxidative thickening and how much it is allowed above the starting viscosity in a given amount of time.

You picked the wrong ILSAC oil to do this experiment with. I've been trying to tell you this. That's because ILSAC oils are blended primarily for NA gasoline engines, with Turbo charging as an afterthought. Yes, I will get some flack for saying this, but if you think about it, it's true. Consequently, these oils are not meant to clean up after themselves or Euro oils.

If you insist on continuing down this path, then at least use a dual-rated (gasoline/light duty Diesel) ILSAC oil that claims ACEA C5, C2, or MB 229.71, like Castrol EDGE EP. Their entire lineup uses the same additive package and blending methodology. So their 0/5W-20 claims ACEA C5, their 0W-20 is MB 229.71 approved, and their 5W-30 claims ACEA C2. That way, at the very least, you can be confident that your engine is kept somewhat clean.

By the looks of it, I don’t think you will ever get the answers you are seeking.

It's not really a concern for me. I just hope that at the very least, he knows where he's going with this.

 

[OVERKILL]

On the next sample, which will be a 7000+ mile interval, I will send a sample to BS again, and get a VOA and UOA from OAI. Yes, it is my money, thank you for your concern.

Curious as to the reason to continue to use Blackstone when it's clear that the valuable information here is coming from OAI, unless you want flashpoint? Just seems like a bit of a waste of time, but, as you note, it's your money.

 

[edyvw]

Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 used to carry Longlife-01 approval. The reason why it no longer has it has everything to do with lubricant politics and nothing to do with the oils capability. Of course, the choices you listed are absolutely valid and good oils. I have a slight bias towards Mobil 1.

Not true.
Some Mobil1 products (Super 3000) are approved for BMW. Problem is oxidation of M1 oils. Probably due to Ester content.

 

[edyvw]

I just saw this thread.
Let’s be clear that all BMW engines are hard on oil. Not sure about B generation, but N generation, turbo or not, are known to be hard.
There is definitely oxidative thickening here. There is no doubt. We established that oil is not appropriate and there is no end game, but let’s play it.
Pulling out different UOA from Bimmerpost is irrelevant. Different owner means different oil, different exploitation etc.
i personally think TAN is an issue. I said last time it needs to be done and this oil probably doesn’t have high starting TAN (maybe I missed something).
Many BMW owners run ILSAC oils not bcs. they know something, but bcs. it is readily available and it says “full synthetic.”
But it can be expensive experiment, especially on this engine.

 

[himemsys]

Supertech FS HM 5W20 Boron :
Virgin: 240
Two UOAs on my 03 Civic
517 miles: 186
3515 miles: 88

On an '18 CRV with M1 EP 0W20
Virgin: 75
4323 miles: 35

On an '06 Infiniti M45 with M1 0W40
Virgin: 313
4732 miles: 150

Same M45 with Castrol Edge 0W40
Virgin: 82
4341 miles: 65

'08 Ranger 3.0 with ST FS HM 5W20:
Virgin: 240
2631 miles: 118

 

[Deleted member 89374]

Not true.
Some Mobil1 products (Super 3000) are approved for BMW. Problem is oxidation of M1 oils. Probably due to Ester content.

The oxidation number shown in cheap UOAs and VOAs is erroneously skewed by ester content (specifically oxygen molecules) and therefore is not a true reflection of oxidation. Ask any formulator.

Mobil 1 0W-40 (API SN licensed) carried a BMW Longlife-01 approval.

Things are going on behind the scenes between Shell and ExxonMobil. Mobil will not carry certain approvals (e.g., LL-01) or meet particular specifications (e.g., MS 6395) if Shell is involved in providing those lubricants or has a deal going on with the OEM. Interestingly, after the FCA+PSA merger, Mobil is showing it meets the MS 6395 specification. It's pointless to speculate any more than that, but I thought it would be interesting to bring this up.

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/2013110...USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_0W-40.aspx#

Screenshot:

 

[edyvw]

The oxidation number shown in cheap UOAs and VOAs is eroniously skewed by ester content (specifically oxygen molecules) and therefore is not a true reflection of oxidation. Ask any formulator.

And yes, Mobil 1 0W-40 (API SN licensed) carried a BMW Longlife-01 approval. The thing is that there things going on behind the scenes between Shell and ExxonMobil, and apparently Mobil will not carry certain approvals (e.g. LL-01) or meet certain specification (e.g. MS 6395) if Shell is involved in providing those lubricants to the OEM or has a deal going on. Interestingly, after the FCA+PSA merger, Mobil is showing MS 6395 compliance. It's pointless to speculate any more than that, but I thought it would be interesting to bring this up.

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/2013110...USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_0W-40.aspx#

Screenshot:

View attachment 108734

I am very well aware what Mobil1 was approved and what was not approved for.
What you arguing about Shell and Mobil1 is wild speculation, and that is understatement. Mobil1 did not send oils for approvals as formulation changed, and some had approvals well into deal between Shell and BMW (Mobil1 ESP 5W30 for LL04). You neglect that Super3000 is still approved!
I know why some oils oxidize more. But if that doesn’t not meet BMW requirements (which Super3000 does) then it is irrelevant what is reason.
This notion how Mobil1 does not approve oils bcs. Shell is ridiculous. Approval process is too cheap and too irrelevant for consumers for companies to bicker over that. Yoi bicker over public stuff.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

This notion how Mobil1 does not approve oils bcs. Shell is ridiculous.

Why did Mobil remove MS 6395 from all of their high-end ILSAC motor oils for several years, starting right after Fiat took over Chrysler and brought with them the Shell contract? Can you honestly say that from around 2014 until 2021, Mobil1 0/5W-20/30 and Mobil 1 EP 0/5W-20/30 did not meet MS 6395 when even SuperTech did? If that's not lube politics, I don't know what is.

You said this:

Problem is oxidation of M1 oils.

Then, after I posted proof, you changed your claim to this:

Mobil1 did not send oils for approvals as formulation changed, and some had approvals well into deal between Shell and BMW (Mobil1 ESP 5W30 for LL04).

No, Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 no longer carries a LL-04 approval, though I'm sure the formulation didn't change.

Yoi bicker over public stuff.

No, I speculate, as we all do here, daily.

Also, @edyvw, I have absolutely no reason to bicker with you over motor oil, lol. Considering how all BMW approvals disappeared from the Mobil 1 lineup, maybe consider that something is going on behind the scenes that we're not privy to.

 

[edyvw]

Why did Mobil remove MS 6395 from all of their high-end ILSAC motor oils for several years, starting right after Fiat took over Chrysler and brought with them the Shell contract? Can you honestly say that from around 2014 until 2021, Mobil1 0/5W-20/30 and Mobil 1 EP 0/5W-20/30 did not meet MS 6395 when even SuperTech did? If that's not lube politics, I don't know what is.

You said this:

Then, after I posted proof, you changed your claim to this:

No, Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30 no longer carries a LL-04 approval, though I'm sure the formulation didn't change.

View attachment 108738


No, I speculate, as we all do here, daily.

Also, @edyvw, I have absolutely no reason to bicker with you over motor oil, lol. Considering how all BMW approvals disappeared from the Mobil 1 lineup, maybe consider that something is going on behind the scenes that we're not privy to.

No, I said companies bicker over public stuff, not something like this that consumers don’t and don’t want to understand.
Yes, oxidation is a “problem “ in higher end M1. What causes it, and whether that is natural higher starting point is irrelevant in BMW’s eyes if that doesn’t meet what they want oil to meet (and obviously Super3000 is fine Nd XOM send it for approval).
Mobil1 ESP had LL04 until few years ago, well into contract between Shell and BMW.
And by the way, Shell is not anymore supplier to BMW in North America, it is Castrol. So I guess, Mobil1 is in the pickle: take this stand and die on “moral” hill or just approve oils, but for North American market.

I mean, think how ridiculous that is. According to that theory (and it is wild one) no one gives a malarky what Mobil1 is doing and it seems Mobil1 doesn’t also give malarky what some Mobil1 oils are doing too!

As for FCA, I really don’t know who lost what when. But as for SuperTech comparison, it doesn’t make sense. Many unknown oils have BMW approval, but Mobil1 does not. That doesn’t make them better.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

I mean, think how ridiculous that is.

ExxonMobil and Shell set up and co-own Infineum and share intellectual property. Yes, that is ridiculous. They are both vested in working together rather than against each other. That's also ridiculous. OEM contracts and approvals mean big money for the supplier, so they're careful not to step on each other's toes. Again, ridiculous. How could I make such common sense assumptions?

At the end of the day, I like both Shell and ExxonMobil products. Other than flirting with boutique oils, I wouldn't have an issue using either in our vehicles. Castrol and Valvoline also pop out some decent products, and I wouldn't have an issue using them either. I suppose that's where I draw the line regarding mainstream lubricants.

 

[Deleted member 89374]

And since Castrol got the BMW contract back, what do you know... Castrol EDGE Euro 0W-40 carries a BMW Longlife-01 approval... again. Unlike its predecesor, it contains more VII than ever.

Source: https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/...EA07DAE80258883003B0FFD/$File/wepp-cgfk83.pdf

Screenshot:

 

[edyvw]

ExxonMobil and Shell set up and co-own Infineum and share intellectual property. Yes, that is ridiculous. They are both vested in working together rather than against each other. That's also ridiculous. OEM contracts and approvals mean big money for the supplier, so they're careful not to step on each other's toes. Again, ridiculous. How could I make such common sense assumptions?

At the end of the day, I like both Shell and ExxonMobil products. Other than flirting with boutique oils, I wouldn't have an issue using either in our vehicles. Castrol and Valvoline also pop out some decent products, and I wouldn't have an issue using them either. I suppose that's where I draw the line regarding mainstream lubricants.

No it does not, I worked on approvals. It is designed to help customers! BMW is not GM. They are pretty confident in making money selling cars; they don't need to sell licenses and get % of sold jugs.
I am not sure you understand what approval is! What approval and supplier? Supplier of oil does not have anything to do with approval. The company I worked for had BMW approvals and no involvement with BMW except regular information sharing when it comes to updates to approvals etc.
Mobil1 started to update its products in 2015. BMW also updated short after its all approvals. ALL 0WXX oils lost LL01 and LL04 approvals, not just Mobil1, including Shell products.
Why Mobil1 does not get approval for M1 5W40 or 5W30 ESP is more to do with their choice of the formulation.

 

[edyvw]

And since Castrol got the BMW contract back, what do you know... Castrol EDGE Euro 0W-40 carries a BMW Longlife-01 approval... again. Unlike its predecesor, it contains more VII than ever.

Source: https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/...EA07DAE80258883003B0FFD/$File/wepp-cgfk83.pdf

Screenshot:

View attachment 108749

In other places, it does not say it has LL01, and that is a new formulation. Until we see new jugs, it could very well be typo.
Also, SHell is a supplier to the rest of the world, and their 0W40 oils are NOT approved! Castrol is a supplier ONLY to North America.