2015 BMW N20 X1 UOA 5K MILES NON-EURO OIL: ROUND 2
- Thread starter KEVINK0000
- Start date
D
Deleted member 89374
This isn't about BMW making money, it's about the big lube manufacturers making big money. It's about funneling a particular customer base to their products. FCA did it with Pennzoil here in the US. That's why I used them as an example. When every premium motor oil could easily meet MS 6395, only Pennzoil's offerings did, along with the lower tier offerings of Mobil and some store brands like SuperTech. I'm not talking about the money that the OEM makes from selling lube licenses. I'm talking about the lube manufacturer racking in the profits. By the way, Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0W-40 no longer carries LL-01.
Again, I am talking about the big lube companies at a macro level. The way their products are targeted signals that they may have some agreements with each other. And why wouldn't they? Castrol, for example, has a cross-licensing agreement with Infineum. Or shall I say BP. It's easier to carve out the market and each serve certain segments than everyone fighting for the same piece of the pie. You only need to look back at the endless and misguided threads in the Dodge/RAM/Chrysler forums about what lube to use in port-injected naturally aspirated engines because of MS 6395. It was ridiculous.
BMW owners still use these products even without LL-01 and LL-04 official approvals. Keep in mind that these products use Infineum additive packages. These additive packages are developed to cover multiple specifications. Some customers know this, but many keep using Mobil 1 because they trust the product.
Take a guess who makes the oil in those BMW 0W-40 containers. Shell does. It's a "funneling the customer" game meant for everyone to maximize profits. Shell also makes ZF Lifeguard fluid, but you don't see that advertised, and neither do you see Shell selling it under their own brand, even unlicensed.
I made no bones that this is just speculation on my part. However, this is something that you learn in business school pretty early on. These three mega corporations, Shell, XOM, and BP, stand to maximize profits if they work together rather than working against each other. I don't have a problem with that. I'm just trying to convey the message that I believe that the big guys divide the lubricant market amongst each other as they see fit.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
I think you still don’t understand what approvals are.
BMW phased out 0W40 M Performance oil in 2018. It was made by Shell and it was completely different formulation from Shell Helix 0W40.
BMW owners use whatever oil they want to use. BMW has approval process that is separate from Shell or Castrol and has hundreds of different oils approved from various companies that use different additive suppliers.
What Pennzoil does with FCA is really not my interest, but there is too much “deep state” in your “arguments.”
CleanSump
Site Donor 2022
BMW introduced a new engine and changed a spec and didn't change the number. It left some oils behind on paper. I don't see the conspiracy.
MB added urea to the mix, changed the spec, and gave it a new number. It left some oils behind. I still don't see the conspiracy.
MB added urea to the mix, changed the spec, and gave it a new number. It left some oils behind. I still don't see the conspiracy.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
That's a good point, while LL-01 is still a "current" spec in terms of BMW maintaining the licensing for it, it's obsolete in that no new vehicles call for it, and haven't for quite a while. It may not be worthwhile for companies like Mobil and Ravenol to reformulate their 0W-40's for the new LL-01 requirements within that context, particularly if it involves having to reduce the absolute oxidation numbers, which are a byproduct of the oil's base oil blend.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
BMW updated all specifications in 2018 like it does occasionally. This is not first update for LL01 and LL04. Oxidation requirements, already most stringent, were further increased. Tests are being done on N20 and N47 engines.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
LL01 is used still in markts with high sulfur in gas. LL04 is still used in diesels and gas engines in Europe.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Aye, but Mobil's biggest market is probably North America. I suspect they don't sell a lot of Mobil 1 in the markets you've mentioned.
D
Deleted member 89374
Where are the LL-01 and LL-04 specifications and test requierements published?
IIRC Ashton handbook has some test listed. You can look at Lubrizol360 site and the relative performance tool for the specification as well as get an idea of the change in performance between revisions.
D
Deleted member 89374
This is what Lubrizol lists:
BMW Longlife 01
BMW Longlife 01 oils are Upper Mainline lubricants. They are designed as the minimum requirement for the majority of BMW gasoline engines from model year 2002 and light-duty diesel engines without diesel particulate filters from model year 2003.BMW Longlife 01 oils are typically high HTHS (≥ 3.5cP) SAE 5W-30 and 5W-40 based on API Group III base oils.
The main physical and chemical requirements for BMW Longlife 01 oils are shown below:
| Requirement | Method | Unit | Limit |
| HTHS viscosity | CEC L-36-A-90 | cP | ≥ 3.5 |
| Sulphated Ash | ASTM D874 | %wt | ≤ |
| Phosphorus | ASTM D5185 | %wt | ≥ |
| Sulfur | ASTM D5185 | %wt | ≤ |
| Evaporation loss (NOACK) | CEC L-40-A-93 | % | ≤ |
| Total Base Number | ASTM D2896 | mgKOH/g | ≥ |
- ACEA A3/B4-16
- Daimler MB-Approval 229.3
- Daimler MB-Approval 229.5
- Daimler MB-Approval 226.5
- Volkswagen VW50200
- Volkswagen VW50500
- Porsche A40 (5W-40 only)
- PSA B71 2296 (5W-40 only)
- Renault RN0700
- Renualt RN0710
As you can see, LL-01 goes hand in hand with other approvals, so there is no reason, other than they don't want to, for Mobil 1 not to have their FS line BMW LL-01 approved.
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Doesn't mean that it would be able to get ll-01 approved. Usually ll-01 oils have the other approvals, doesn't mean that the other approvals have ll-01.
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
True. Not saying anything about Mobil1 decision. Probably their decision not to go LL01 or LL04 in top line products is what you mentioned, doesn’t make business sense to reformulate. They still sell Super3000.
No. What it means is that LL01 is USUALLY coupled with other approvals. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Nobody other than M1 knows why they opted not to recert their flagship product under the latest revision. Nobody is saying they don't have the technical know how.
What I do know is that over the last 10 years in the US market BMW, like most other euro makes, moved its fleet towards oils which are Low-SAPS and have an HTHS under 3.0.
BTW..If you want to know what sort of tests here's an exerpt from Lubrizol.
"...
To ensure service-fill engine lubricants meeting the BMW Longlife-04 specification reflect the increasingly severe conditions its engines and aftertreatment systems must perform in, the company developed new test requirements for the latest specification, including the BMW N20 and later the B48 durability tests, for advanced gasoline cleanliness and durability in TGDI engines. The BMW N20, which was later replaced by the B48 are turbocharged four-cylinder gasoline engines, producing higher efficiency and greater low rpm-torque than the BMW N52 engine they replaced.
The BMW B48 test is included in the latest lubricant approval specification, superseding the BMW N52 durability test; with all BMW Longlife-04 approval applications requiring supporting BMW N48 test data from December 2018 onwards. In addition, three new aeration tests, one new turbocharging coking test and one new bench wear test are included in the latest test requirements for oil marketers seeking to market approved BMW Longlife-04 lubricants.
The latest version of BMW Longlife-04 approved lubricants delivers greater durability, biofuel compatibility, low temperature performance, management of unwanted aeration and enhanced turbocharger cleanliness. Retaining backwards compatibility to a wide selection of the existing BMW Group range, these high-performing lubricants are designed to deliver an optimum service life for specified gasoline engines and diesel engines with or without Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF)."
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D
Deleted member 89374
It's no longer available in North America in 5W-40 viscosity. Where still available, it doesn't carry the BMW LL-01 approval. Neither does the 5W-30 or any Mobil Super 3000 product.
I'm sure LL-01 would, but unless you can find specific data on the test requirements, all we can do is speculate. It's what everyone does. Most threads are theoretical discussions about lubricants and what they may or may not do. I sprinkled in some business practice theories (speculation on my part), and @edyvw immediately dubbed them "deep state."
Though corporate entities have all kinds of crazy business arrangements that the public is not privy to, speculating isn't that unusual. Of course, maybe Mobil just doesn't care about LL-01 and BMW approvals because it's not where they make money. I would have difficulty believing that a lubricant that carries A40 and VW502/505 approvals has trouble obtaining LL-01 approval.And their best-selling lubes are of the ILSAC variety. I remember when M1 FS 5W-40 first came out, it was dubbed "X2" because Mobil didn't get the MB 229.5 approval when they released it. They got it afterward, and the "X2" was removed from the name, but the formulation stayed the same. It sure caused some confusion, though.
Longlife-04 seems to be based on ACEA C3. However, this is not one of the required approvals for @KEVINK0000's BMW, at least not according to the owner's manual. Now, will it work? Oh yeah, it will, and a heck of a lot better than what he's using. Pennzoil Euro L 5W-30 would perform well in his son's N20, and it's LL-04 approved.
In europe, and most likely in other parts of the world, mobil super 3000 xe1 5w-30 and formula v 5w-30 do have ll-04 approvals. Also, m1 Esp lv 0w-30 is ll-12fe approved.
The major difference between LL01 and LL04 is the emissions system component the tests remain the same. The owners manual for the OP was written at a time when ULSG wasn't a requirement so it wouldn't mention LL04. LL04 has been used for this engine in western Europe since the day it was introduced.
Again what's the point you're trying to make?
edyvw
$50 site donor 2025
N20/26 used in EU LL04. Difference between LL01 and LL04 is emissions system compatibility.It's no longer available in North America in 5W-40 viscosity. Where still available, it doesn't carry the BMW LL-01 approval. Neither does the 5W-30 or any Mobil Super 3000 product.
I'm sure LL-01 would, but unless you can find specific data on the test requirements, all we can do is speculate. It's what everyone does. Most threads are theoretical discussions about lubricants and what they may or may not do. I sprinkled in some business practice theories (speculation on my part), and @edyvw immediately dubbed them "deep state."
And their best-selling lubes are of the ILSAC variety. I remember when M1 FS 5W-40 first came out, it was dubbed "X2" because Mobil didn't get the MB 229.5 approval when they released it. They got it afterward, and the "X2" was removed from the name, but the formulation stayed the same. It sure caused some confusion, though.
Longlife-04 seems to be based on ACEA C3. However, this is not one of the required approvals for @KEVINK0000's BMW, at least not according to the owner's manual. Now, will it work? Oh yeah, it will, and a heck of a lot better than what he's using. Pennzoil Euro L 5W-30 would perform well in his son's N20, and it's LL-04 approved.
View attachment 108858
As mentioned above, Mobil1 has approved oils in Europe. I really don’t want to spend time thinking why Mobil1 has LL oils sold in Europe and not here (for years they sold 0W40 x3 in Europe and not here) but I still stand by my thinking that you are reading too much into this trying to find some conspiracy theory.
And no, just bcs oil is approved fir A40 or 502.00 doesn’t mean it will meet LL01. Those are not particularly stringent requirements, though A40 carries unique Nordschleife testing requirement so people are interested in it bcs. that.
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