2015 BMW N20 X1 UOA 5K MILES NON-EURO OIL: ROUND 2

If this QS synthetic Dexos 1G3 is causing damage on a humble British Mini/Bimmer 2L turbo, then all of FORD and GM turbo 4 will be toast also.
Are BMW engines so dang fragile? Improperly designed? No. They spec and required certification for and adequate Long life/ Long Drain oil for use with low sulfur fuels. In fact I have read ACEA/ATIEL was adopting many ILSAC ASTM test sequences in 2018**

A 5000 mile / 4 month interval should be a cakewalk for this lubricant.
_________________________________________
** LUBES'N'Greases, Dec 2018
 
If this QS synthetic Dexos 1G3 is causing damage on a humble British Mini/Bimmer 2L turbo, then all of FORD and GM turbo 4 will be toast also.
Are BMW engines so dang fragile? Improperly designed? No. They spec and required certification for and adequate Long life/ Long Drain oil for use with low sulfur fuels. In fact I have read ACEA/ATIEL was adopting many ILSAC ASTM test sequences in 2018**

A 5000 mile / 4 month interval should be a cakewalk for this lubricant.
_________________________________________
** LUBES'N'Greases, Dec 2018
I don't know if it's D1G2 or D1G3, probably D1G2. That's not the issue here. The issue is that in addition to the OP opening himself to a line of questioning that he doesn't want to provide answers to, he also failed to explain why he is conducting this experiment. Why bother at all when Quaker State Full Synthetic Euro 5W-40 with proper Longlife 01 approval can be currently had for $21.48 at Walmart, the same price as Quaker State 5W-30?

Link: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Quaker-S...W-40-Motor-Oil-5-Quart/737859365?athbdg=L1100
 
I don't know if it's D1G2 or D1G3, probably D1G2. That's not the issue here. The issue is that in addition to the OP opening himself to a line of questioning that he doesn't want to provide answers to, he also failed to explain why he is conducting this experiment. Why bother at all when Quaker State Full Synthetic Euro 5W-40 with proper Longlife 01 approval can be currently had for $21.48 at Walmart, the same price as Quaker State 5W-30?

Link: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Quaker-S...W-40-Motor-Oil-5-Quart/737859365?athbdg=L1100
This I agree with...almost putting more effort into something that is so easy to use the right stuff that is easy to get. I can understand if the BMW-approved oil was hard to get so looking at making things easier and using a more standard off the shelf blend but Euro oil is litterally everywhere even at Walmarts in rural areas where you likely don't have many vehicles requiring it.
 
Since the question has become such a distraction, yes my son is fully aware of this. He lurked on the previous closed thread and will show up here too I am sure, in time.

Again, it is only an issue to those who think the "engine will blow" using this oil.

From this point lets keep the discussion about oil and engines.

The N20 timing chain issues are well known, BMW came out with a spec addendum just for that engine. In my opinion, the new spec was not the problem, it was the components themselves that were at issue.

As far as this experiment is concerned, maybe look at it for what it is, rather than what it isn't.
 
This I agree with...almost putting more effort into something that is so easy to use the right stuff that is easy to get. I can understand if the BMW-approved oil was hard to get so looking at making things easier and using a more standard off the shelf blend but Euro oil is litterally everywhere even at Walmarts in rural areas where you likely don't have many vehicles requiring it.
I know you have a lot of experience at the track, and you posted a wealth of VOAs and UOAs here, and I am thankful for all the information you provided.

Looking at the UOA in this thread, two things stand out:

1658162848265.webp


A slight viscosity increase coupled with a good drop in a flashpoint indicates, at least to me, that two things are happening:
  1. Fuel dilution (drop in flashpoint).
  2. The increase in viscosity is due to oxidative thickening. The OP's son might be a spirited driver, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, when you have fuel dilution and oxidative thickening simultaneously, it's a bad sign and a clue that varnish and other deposits are forming inside the engine. All the more reason to use the correct motor oil. In this instance, even going above spec would be a good idea. No, the engine won't blow up. It will just gunk up and wear out prematurely.
 
If this QS synthetic Dexos 1G3 is causing damage on a humble British Mini/Bimmer 2L turbo, then all of FORD and GM turbo 4 will be toast also.
Are BMW engines so dang fragile? Improperly designed? No. They spec and required certification for and adequate Long life/ Long Drain oil for use with low sulfur fuels. In fact I have read ACEA/ATIEL was adopting many ILSAC ASTM test sequences in 2018**

A 5000 mile / 4 month interval should be a cakewalk for this lubricant.
_________________________________________
** LUBES'N'Greases, Dec 2018
While I agree with what you have said, the N20 is all BMW, which in my opinion makes your point even stronger. We have an N16 in the family, and it is nowhere near the quality/design level of the N20.
 
Be that as it may, you posted this thread on a public forum and volunteered the information about experimenting on your son's vehicle, a property he paid for and rightfully owns. From your refusal to respond to the question about having your son's consent to experiment on his vehicle, it can only be concluded that you don't. Consequently, you opened yourself to this line of questioning.

Here are the five steps to the scientific method, should you care to follow them and provide adequate information in this thread:

1. Define a Question to Investigate
As scientists conduct their research, they make observations and collect data. The observations and data often lead them to ask why something is the way it is. Scientists pursue answers to these questions in order to continue with their research. Once scientists have a good question to investigate, they begin to think of ways to answer it.

2. Make Predictions
Based on their research and observations, scientists will often come up with a hypothesis. A hypothesis is a possible answer to a question. It is based on: their own observations, existing theories, and information they gather from other sources. Scientists use their hypothesis to make a prediction, a testable statement that describes what they think the outcome of an investigation will be.

3. Gather Data
Evidence is needed to test the prediction. There are several strategies for collecting evidence, or data. Scientists can gather their data by observing the natural world, performing an experiment in a laboratory, or by running a model. Scientists decide what strategy to use, often combining strategies. Then they plan a procedure and gather their data. They make sure the procedure can be repeated, so that other scientists can evaluate their findings.

4. Analyze the Data
Scientists organize their data in tables, graphs, or diagrams. If possible, they include relevant data from other sources. They look for patterns that show connections between important variables in the hypothesis they are testing.

5. Draw Conclusions
Based on whether or not their prediction came true, scientists can then decide whether the evidence clearly supports or does not support the hypothesis. If the results are not clear, they must rethink their procedure. If the results are clear, scientists write up their fi ndings and results to share with others. The conclusions they draw usually lead to new questions to pursue.
I know about the SM, learned all about it in HS. I don't think anything done here will reach that level of precision. If that you what you require, you will be disappointed.

Like I said look at it for what it is, rather than what it is not.

Read post 67 also.
 
Also, to those who are interested in moving forward, I am currently agnostic on continuing to use this oil in this engine. I want to see more information--yes more "useless" UOAs.
 
I know you have a lot of experience at the track, and you posted a wealth of VOAs and UOAs here, and I am thankful for all the information you provided.

Looking at the UOA in this thread, two things stand out:

View attachment 108626

A slight viscosity increase coupled with a good drop in a flashpoint indicates, at least to me, that two things are happening:
  1. Fuel dilution (drop in flashpoint).
  2. The increase in viscosity is due to oxidative thickening. The OP's son might be a spirited driver, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, when you have fuel dilution and oxidative thickening simultaneously, it's a bad sign and a clue that varnish and other deposits are forming inside the engine. All the more reason to use the correct motor oil. In this instance, even going above spec would be a good idea. No, the engine won't blow up. It will just gunk up and wear out prematurely.
I am certainly no expert on this site however, I have seen oxidative thickening (presumably) at longer OCIs early on with my car and know I am getting fuel dilution so yes that seems like a reasonable conclusion. Only way to know is to send to a different lab that uses GC to get a real fuel value. My BS UOAs always show flashpoints that look like this....380 or so but I change my oil at or before 5K typically so only have seen the thickening issue in one sample pushed out to 9K early on in car's life. The thing is, it will happen the same (IMHO) with a standard LL-01 5W40 Euro oil as well but you just have more viscosity there to start with.
 
I know about the SM, learned all about it in HS. I don't think anything done here will reach that level of precision. If that you what you require, you will be disappointed.

Like I said look at it for what it is, rather than what it is not.

Read post 67 also.
According to your own UOA, the oil is thickening and experiencing fuel dilution simultaneously. That is awful news. To make things worse, you are going in the opposite direction with your lubricant choice.

Would you like to know more about how it is what you're doing to your son's engine? Send a second sample to Wearcheck and have them analyze it: https://wearcheck.com/.

I'm guessing he is a spirited driver, and there is nothing wrong with that—the more reason to use an adequate lubricant in his engine. You are effectively sabotaging his vehicle by doing what you're doing.
 
The thing is, it will happen the same (IMHO) with a standard LL-01 5W40 Euro oil as well but you just have more viscosity there to start with.
I completely agree. You have more viscosity and a beefier additive package and probably other compounds like more ANs and Esters that help keep the engine clean.
 
As far as this experiment is concerned, maybe look at it for what it is, rather than what it isn't.

So from your perspective what is it?

What it is in my view is a couple of UOAs in a vacuum ( without real context).

We have no historical trending on the car (that has been shared with us anyhow) with approved oils or otherwise.

“Blowing up” is not the only negative consequence of an unsuitable oil, particularly in an engine with supposed or real timing component issues which has had an oil specification change as a result.

Where are the partical counts, the filters, etcetera?
 
According to your own UOA, the oil is thickening and experiencing fuel dilution simultaneously. That is awful news. To make things worse, you are going in the opposite direction with your lubricant choice.

Would you like to know more about how it is what you're doing to your son's engine? Send a second sample to Wearcheck and have them analyze it: https://wearcheck.com/.

I'm guessing he is a spirited driver, and there is nothing wrong with that—the more reason to use an adequate lubricant in his engine. You are effectively sabotaging his vehicle by doing what you're doing.
He has a sample of this same fill sent to OAI that he will be posting. This will provide significantly more information.
 
ALL -
This is an experimental effort, and he's indicated his son is aware of the trials, so quit the bickering and finger pointing, please.
Keep your comments to the UOA itself; you needn't concern yourself with the "moral" implications within someone else's family.


OP-
I will say that I agree with some of the others; a few UOAs will not give you anywhere the kind of data needed to determine if one lube is better or worse than another in this application. Not sure exactly what you're attempting to discern with this experiment, but perhaps you could elaborate more clearly?
 
The best way I can illustrate your @KEVINK0000 that you're using the wrong lubricant for the application is with the Lubrizol 360 Relative Performance Comparison Tool.

Here is Dexos 1 Gen 2 (which is what you more than likely used) compared to BMW Longlife 01 FE, which is one of the lubricant approvals that the motor oil chosen by the owner should have:

1658166996659.webp


1658167013243.webp


I chose Longlife 01 FE because it's closer in specifications to D1G2 than regular Longlife 01.

There is a reason why BMW insists on better deposit control than Dexos does in their specification. It's for the same reason why you're experiencing oxidative thickening so early in the OCI. That oil just isn't cut out for that engine. It's as simple as that.

If, at the very least, it wasn't a forced induction engine, then it may have been easier on the oil. However, that motor is not easy on the oil.
 
Also, to those who are interested in moving forward, I am currently agnostic on continuing to use this oil in this engine. I want to see more information--yes more "useless" UOAs.
At least we've gotten that far in understanding what a cheap spectrographic analysis shows and does not show.

But, what about the rest of the plethora of tests that comprise BMW Longlife approval? What about oxidation resistance, DIN 51531 deposit test, corrosion resistance, foaming resistance, ring sticking test, sludge testing, etc. What do you look at in the UOA to ascertain if this oil meets those requirements as required by BMW? Those are all likely more important than wear anyway, considering that API licensed oil has wear requirements.
 
The best way I can illustrate your @KEVINK0000 that you're using the wrong lubricant for the application is with the Lubrizol 360 Relative Performance Comparison Tool.

Here is Dexos 1 Gen 2 (which is what you more than likely used) compared to BMW Longlife 01 FE, which is one of the lubricant approvals that the motor oil chosen by the owner should have:

View attachment 108634

View attachment 108635

I chose Longlife 01 FE because it's closer in specifications to D1G2 than regular Longlife 01.

There is a reason why BMW insists on better deposit control than Dexos does in their specification. It's for the same reason why you're experiencing oxidative thickening so early in the OCI. That oil just isn't cut out for that engine. It's as simple as that.

If, at the very least, it wasn't a forced induction engine, then it may have been easier on the oil. However, that motor is not easy on the oil.
Yes I am aware of that chart, thank you for sending that.
 
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