2012 Prius C

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Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Of course I am biased. When my tax money goes to support electric cars and hybrids I will be biased.



How are your tax dollars going to support the Prius C?


See:

Quote:
Canada

Residents in Ontario[1] (until July 1, 2010 when the HST takes effect, ending the previous PST rebate) and Quebec,[2] Canada can claim a rebate on the Provincial Retail Sales Tax of up to CAD 2,000 on the purchase or lease of a hybrid vehicle, and Federal Transport Canada can claim a rebate of CAD 1,500.[3]
[edit]United States

Main article: Government incentives for fuel efficient vehicles in the United States
The U.S. Energy Policy Act of 2005 established a federal income tax credit of up to $3,400 for the purchase of new hybrid vehicles, purchased or placed into service after December 31, 2005.[4][5] Vehicles purchased after December 31, 2010 are not eligible for this credit.[4][5] The law limited the tax credits to the first 60,000 eligible vehicles per carmaker, meaning that credits for popular models will be phase out before the tax break's scheduled expiration date. Note these are credits — dollar for dollar tax savings — not merely deductions. The tax credit is to be phased out two calendar quarters after the manufacturer reaches 60,000 new cars sold in the following manner: it will be reduced to 50% if delivered in either the third or fourth quarter after the threshold is reached, to 25% in the fifth and sixth quarters, and 0% thereafter.[4][6] The Internal Revenue Service is responsible for certifying that certain passenger autos and light trucks qualify for the credit and the amount of the credit.


and:

Quote:
Canada

Ontario established a rebate between CAD 5,000 (4 kWh battery) to CAD 8,500 (17 kWh or more) (~US$5,050 to US$8,650), depending on battery size, for purchasing or leasing a new plug-in electric vehicle after July 1, 2010. The rebates will be available to the first 10,000 applicants who qualify.[1][2] The province will also introduce green-coloured licence plates for exclusive use of plug-in hybrids and battery electric vehicles.[1][3][4] These unique green vehicle plates will allow PEV owners to travel in the province's carpool lanes until 2015 regardless of the number of passengers in the vehicle. Also, owners are eligible to use recharging stations at GO Transit and other provincially-owned parking lots.[1][4]
Quebec will offer rebates of up to CAD 8,500 (US$8,650) beginning on January 1, 2012, for the purchase of new plug-in electric vehicles equipped with a minimum of 4 kWh battery, and new hybrid electric vehicles are eligible for a CAD 1,000 rebate. All-electric vehicles with high-capacity battery packs will be eligible for the full C$8,000 rebate, and incentives are reduced for low-range electric cars and plug-in hybrids. Quebec's government earmarked CAD 50 million (US$52.3 million) for the program, and the maximum rebate amount is slowly reduced every year until a maximum of CAD 3,000 in 2015, but the rebates will continue until the fund runs out. There is also a ceiling for the maximum number of eligible vehicles: 10,000 for all-electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids, and 5,000 for conventional hybrids.[5][6]
The Government of British Columbia announced the LiveSmart BC program which will start offering rebates of up to CAD 5,000 per eligible clean energy vehicle commencing on December 1, 2011. The incentives will be available until March 31, 2013 or until available funding is depleted, whichever comes first. Available funds are enough to provide incentives for approximately 1,370 vehicles. Battery electric vehicles, fuel cell vehicles and plug-in hybrids with battery capacity of 15.0 kWh and above are eligible for a CAD 5,000 incentive. Also effective December 1, 2011, rebates of up to CAD 500 per qualifying electric vehicle charging equipment will be available to B.C. residents who have purchased a clean energy vehicle.


Quote:
United States
New plug-in electric vehicles
As defined by the 2009 ACES Act, a PEV is a vehicle which draws propulsion energy from a traction battery with at least 4 kwh of capacity and uses an offboard source of energy to recharge such battery.[57] The tax credit for new plug-in electric vehicles is worth $2,500 plus $417 for each kilowatt-hour of battery capacity over 4 kwh, and the portion of the credit determined by battery capacity cannot exceed $5,000. Therefore, the total amount of the credit allowed for a new PEV is $7,500.[57]
The new qualified plug-in electric vehicle credit phases out for a PEV manufacturer over the one-year period beginning with the second calendar quarter after the calendar quarter in which at least 200,000 qualifying vehicles from that manufacturer have been sold for use in the United States. For this purpose cumulative sales are accounted after December 31, 2009. Qualifying PEVs are eligible for 50% of the credit if acquired in the first two quarters of the phase-out period, and 25% of the credit if bought in the third or fourth quarter of the phase-out period.[57] Both the Nissan Leaf electric vehicle and the Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid, launched in December 2010, are eligible for the maximum $7,500 tax credit.[59] The Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid, scheduled for 2012, is eligible for a $2,500 tax credit due to its smaller battery capacity of 5.2 kWh.
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Of course I am biased. When my tax money goes to support electric cars and hybrids I will be biased. When an HOV lane is given to single occupant hybrid and electric vehicles not to solve congestion problem but to project a message, or an agenda, I will be biased. When wind and solar farms die the moment tax subsidies dry out, I will be biased. When everything is done to hide problems that EV's pose but everything burning oil is automatically projected as evil, I will be biased. So yes, I'm biased.

Agenda? Don't you have to be in a position of power or influence to have one? I'm just posting my biased opinions, that's it.

i don't think tax money goes to support electric cars and hybrids. where did you get that from? i agree with you that alternative fuel vehicles shouldn't get automatic access to carpool lanes. that kinda defeats the purpose of them and cheats everyone else; it's basically state sponsored prejudice.

but i don't understand why you have such disdain for electric and hybrid vehicles. even if there is an infinite supply of oil, electric cars help wean us off foreign oil and create jobs at home processing coal, wind, solar, and hydro power. how is that a bad thing exactly?

EDIT: ok i forgot about the tax credit for purchase of these vehicles. you are right about that and i definitely don't agree with that.
 
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Overkill, I don't live in Canada. And really, the part of Canada I visit regularly is really just part of America. Seattle North, as we call it...
Trolling.gif


Prius subsidies ran out in the US a while ago, and they certainly don't apply to the car in question down here.
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
Overkill, I don't live in Canada. And really, the part of Canada I visit regularly is really just part of America. Seattle North, as we call it...
Trolling.gif


Prius subsidies ran out in the US a while ago, and they certainly don't apply to the car in question down here.



But they DO apply for the Volt and Leaf. And the person you are arguing with is in Canada, so technically he's right
wink.gif
HIS taxes DO go toward these things.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Of course I am biased. When my tax money goes to support electric cars and hybrids I will be biased.



How are your tax dollars going to support the Prius C?


See:

Quote:
Canada

Residents in Ontario[1] (until July 1, 2010 when the HST takes effect, ending the previous PST rebate) and Quebec,[2] Canada can claim a rebate on the Provincial Retail Sales Tax of up to CAD 2,000 on the purchase or lease of a hybrid vehicle, and Federal Transport Canada can claim a rebate of CAD 1,500.[3]
[edit]United States

Main article: Government incentives for fuel efficient vehicles in the United States
The U.S. Energy Policy Act of 2005 established a federal income tax credit of up to $3,400 for the purchase of new hybrid vehicles, purchased or placed into service after December 31, 2005.[4][5] Vehicles purchased after December 31, 2010 are not eligible for this credit.[4][5] The law limited the tax credits to the first 60,000 eligible vehicles per carmaker, meaning that credits for popular models will be phase out before the tax break's scheduled expiration date. Note these are credits — dollar for dollar tax savings — not merely deductions. The tax credit is to be phased out two calendar quarters after the manufacturer reaches 60,000 new cars sold in the following manner: it will be reduced to 50% if delivered in either the third or fourth quarter after the threshold is reached, to 25% in the fifth and sixth quarters, and 0% thereafter.[4][6] The Internal Revenue Service is responsible for certifying that certain passenger autos and light trucks qualify for the credit and the amount of the credit.


and:

Quote:
Canada

Ontario established a rebate between CAD 5,000 (4 kWh battery) to CAD 8,500 (17 kWh or more) (~US$5,050 to US$8,650), depending on battery size, for purchasing or leasing a new plug-in electric vehicle after July 1, 2010. The rebates will be available to the first 10,000 applicants who qualify.[1][2] The province will also introduce green-coloured licence plates for exclusive use of plug-in hybrids and battery electric vehicles.[1][3][4] These unique green vehicle plates will allow PEV owners to travel in the province's carpool lanes until 2015 regardless of the number of passengers in the vehicle. Also, owners are eligible to use recharging stations at GO Transit and other provincially-owned parking lots.[1][4]
Quebec will offer rebates of up to CAD 8,500 (US$8,650) beginning on January 1, 2012, for the purchase of new plug-in electric vehicles equipped with a minimum of 4 kWh battery, and new hybrid electric vehicles are eligible for a CAD 1,000 rebate. All-electric vehicles with high-capacity battery packs will be eligible for the full C$8,000 rebate, and incentives are reduced for low-range electric cars and plug-in hybrids. Quebec's government earmarked CAD 50 million (US$52.3 million) for the program, and the maximum rebate amount is slowly reduced every year until a maximum of CAD 3,000 in 2015, but the rebates will continue until the fund runs out. There is also a ceiling for the maximum number of eligible vehicles: 10,000 for all-electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids, and 5,000 for conventional hybrids.[5][6]
The Government of British Columbia announced the LiveSmart BC program which will start offering rebates of up to CAD 5,000 per eligible clean energy vehicle commencing on December 1, 2011. The incentives will be available until March 31, 2013 or until available funding is depleted, whichever comes first. Available funds are enough to provide incentives for approximately 1,370 vehicles. Battery electric vehicles, fuel cell vehicles and plug-in hybrids with battery capacity of 15.0 kWh and above are eligible for a CAD 5,000 incentive. Also effective December 1, 2011, rebates of up to CAD 500 per qualifying electric vehicle charging equipment will be available to B.C. residents who have purchased a clean energy vehicle.


Quote:
United States
New plug-in electric vehicles
As defined by the 2009 ACES Act, a PEV is a vehicle which draws propulsion energy from a traction battery with at least 4 kwh of capacity and uses an offboard source of energy to recharge such battery.[57] The tax credit for new plug-in electric vehicles is worth $2,500 plus $417 for each kilowatt-hour of battery capacity over 4 kwh, and the portion of the credit determined by battery capacity cannot exceed $5,000. Therefore, the total amount of the credit allowed for a new PEV is $7,500.[57]
The new qualified plug-in electric vehicle credit phases out for a PEV manufacturer over the one-year period beginning with the second calendar quarter after the calendar quarter in which at least 200,000 qualifying vehicles from that manufacturer have been sold for use in the United States. For this purpose cumulative sales are accounted after December 31, 2009. Qualifying PEVs are eligible for 50% of the credit if acquired in the first two quarters of the phase-out period, and 25% of the credit if bought in the third or fourth quarter of the phase-out period.[57] Both the Nissan Leaf electric vehicle and the Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid, launched in December 2010, are eligible for the maximum $7,500 tax credit.[59] The Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid, scheduled for 2012, is eligible for a $2,500 tax credit due to its smaller battery capacity of 5.2 kWh.


I think tax incentives for more fuel efficient cars, including hybrids and electrical vehicles, are a good thing, as eventually fuel prices or environmental/climate costs will force us to have more of them. Also its an easy way for government to encourage fuel efficiency gains and help society and car manufacturers prepare for rising fuel costs.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I think tax incentives for more fuel efficient cars, including hybrids and electrical vehicles, are a good thing, as eventually fuel prices or environmental/climate costs will force us to have more of them. Also its an easy way for government to encourage fuel efficiency gains and help society and car manufacturers prepare for rising fuel costs.


government shouldn't have to subsidize anything. if you want to encourage people to buy more fuel efficient cars, then raise the gas tax. people will react when it starts hitting their wallet. also the government would be gaining revenue rather than paying it out in that case.
 
Originally Posted By: jmsjags
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I think tax incentives for more fuel efficient cars, including hybrids and electrical vehicles, are a good thing, as eventually fuel prices or environmental/climate costs will force us to have more of them. Also its an easy way for government to encourage fuel efficiency gains and help society and car manufacturers prepare for rising fuel costs.


government shouldn't have to subsidize anything. if you want to encourage people to buy more fuel efficient cars, then raise the gas tax. people will react when it starts hitting their wallet. also the government would be gaining revenue rather than paying it out in that case.

Well, how many politicians have the popularity to get away with raising gas taxes? By not taxing efficient cars you can create more demand for them without costing anybody anything...
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: jmsjags
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I think tax incentives for more fuel efficient cars, including hybrids and electrical vehicles, are a good thing, as eventually fuel prices or environmental/climate costs will force us to have more of them. Also its an easy way for government to encourage fuel efficiency gains and help society and car manufacturers prepare for rising fuel costs.


government shouldn't have to subsidize anything. if you want to encourage people to buy more fuel efficient cars, then raise the gas tax. people will react when it starts hitting their wallet. also the government would be gaining revenue rather than paying it out in that case.

Well, how many politicians have the popularity to get away with raising gas taxes? By not taxing efficient cars you can create more demand for them without costing anybody anything...


But it IS costing us something! Because our taxes are going to funding these "incentive" programs!
 
Originally Posted By: jmsjags

government shouldn't have to subsidize anything.


I think it's naive to think that the massive amount of military spending and foreign aid to the middle east isn't to keep the global supply (and hence costs) of oil at reasonable levels. I mean, do we really love the Saudis that much? In short, we're already subsidizing oil extraction and transport, both directly and indirectly. Personally, I see government subsidies for alternative fuels and increased efficiency as both a good thing, and a drop in the bucket compared to what we spend subsidizing oil.

That said, that has little to do with the Prius C. I look at this car strictly in selfish term. And the way I look at it, if I were looking for a compact hatchback, this would be at the top of my list for low cost of ownership. It's funny how often people want to derail any thread about a hybrid with ridiculous tales of how hybrids suck. The bottom line is that you'd be very hard-pressed to find a car that will match this in terms of cost per mile, no matter how the deniers of all things hybrid try to fudge the numbers.

It normally goes like this:

-you'll have to throw the car away @ 150K (no, you wont)

-it'll depreciate like crazy because the battery will wear out( go look at some Escape Hybrids in the used market and get back to me)

-you'll HAVE TO replace the battery at 200K (A, that's not true, and B, where is this fantasy that everyone is keeping their cars for 500K miles. Yes, there's a small chance the battery may fail and need replaced or fixed. Wow, a 10 year old car with 200K miles may need an expensive repair? What a shocker...)

-they're horrible to drive. um, well, given my limited experience I kinda agree with this one. I'd rather drive a Fit than a Prius C any day.

Tax subsidies or no, the Prius C looks like a solid little car, and unlike what was said at the beginning of the thread, if low cost of ownership was a big concern, I absolutely would consider this car.
 
Also, why only target EV's and hybrids for those incentives? In Canada we had a tax break for ALL vehicles that achieved or exceeded certain fuel economy number, but that died down quickly. Instead Hybrid and EV only subsidies were introduced.
Too me this is deliberate targeting to achieve a specific outcome and saving oil or "oil independence" has nothing to do with it.

Also, someone mentioned job creation, what jobs? In Ontario we export excessive electricity at a rate of about 2.5c/KWH, but we pay a subsidy of about 13 to 75c/KWH to the "green" power generators, i.e. wind and solar. On top of that residential consumers will face rate hikes up to 58% by 2016 and no new jobs created, in fact jobs were lost. I don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that there is more at work here than just mere conservation of recources.
If you think this is only for Canada, look and learn or keep dreaming, but this is the future a lot of you guys want and it won't be pretty.

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/03/22/ontarios-power-trip-not-a-fit-review/
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: cchase

As far as a hybrid saving you 10 cents per mile on gas, that's simply not possible unless you're going from something that has extremely poor fuel economy. Our cars average 11 cents per mile and they are not geared towards fuel efficiency. Even my 400 hp, V8 car only costs 16 cents/mile.


I went from corolla 28MPG to prius 56MPG, city only, heavy AC use. Hence the ~10c/mile difference at current gas prices.

You may want to recalculate your 11c/mile as it doesn't add up at current gas prices.


Thankfully, I don't have to calculate it myself. Fuelly does it for me. 10.1 cents per mile for our Malibu at an average over the past 4 years of $3.51/gallon. That's at an average of 29 mpg over that time period.

How can I save 10 cents per mile by doubling my fuel mileage? If I doubled it, fuel expense would be cut in half, to about 5 cents per mile.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: cchase

I hesitate to bring this up, but I do have a point to make.

These DIY individual cell replacements are not a good thing. This is the very expensive version of "mixing and matching" old batteries with new batteries. The graph of capacity of the Prius battery cells over time do not have a slope of 0.


Studies has been done on that and published too: http://researchcommons.waikato.ac.nz/bit....pdf?sequence=1

I prefer that over some speculation.


Thank you for the link. That study seems to correlate well with my earlier statements. Mixing and matching cells of uneven capacity is not suggested in that study and in fact they mention re-assembling the individual packs to create matched blades. This is common in the battery pack industry but doesn't come cheaply. Matching the 228 cells in a Prius battery would cost a not insubstantial sum of money, not to mention the disassembly and reassembly costs associated. I do appreciate your sarcastic comment about my "speculation". I assure you I am not speculating, but I am sure you know that from reading the study you linked.
 
Originally Posted By: cchase
10.1 cents per mile for our Malibu at an average over the past 4 years of $3.51/gallon. That's at an average of 29 mpg over that time period.


I see. I used the current (hint: high) gas price in my calculation.
 
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: MarkM66
It came up in another post that the Prius C only has a 9 Gal. gas tank. For those who drive a lot, that's way to small IMO.


Prius C is a small CITY car. Regular Prius or different car alltogether is better suited for long distance hwy driving.


There's a $5k difference in the starting price. Is the C that horrible on the highway?
crazy.gif
 
Originally Posted By: jmsjags
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
I think tax incentives for more fuel efficient cars, including hybrids and electrical vehicles, are a good thing, as eventually fuel prices or environmental/climate costs will force us to have more of them. Also its an easy way for government to encourage fuel efficiency gains and help society and car manufacturers prepare for rising fuel costs.


government shouldn't have to subsidize anything. if you want to encourage people to buy more fuel efficient cars, then raise the gas tax. people will react when it starts hitting their wallet. also the government would be gaining revenue rather than paying it out in that case.


Unfortunately it already did with defense budget and subsidies to encourage more oil exploration and drilling.

If you were to apply the same principle, you might want to apply to both sides.
 
Originally Posted By: MarkM66
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: MarkM66
It came up in another post that the Prius C only has a 9 Gal. gas tank. For those who drive a lot, that's way to small IMO.


Prius C is a small CITY car. Regular Prius or different car alltogether is better suited for long distance hwy driving.


There's a $5k difference in the starting price. Is the C that horrible on the highway?
crazy.gif



This is yet another one of those bizarre criticisms? The cruising range of this car is equivalent (or greater) than most passenger cars on the market (and certainly more for most drivers who mix city and hwy driving). When's the last time you heard someone say they weren't buying a Ford Fusion because it didn't have a big enough cruising range? The new Explorer has a cruising range of 316 miles. Why isn't this an issue?

The car averages 50mpg. The tank size is only an issue for those looking for something to criticize. Seriously, this makes no sense.
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: MarkM66
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Originally Posted By: MarkM66
It came up in another post that the Prius C only has a 9 Gal. gas tank. For those who drive a lot, that's way to small IMO.


Prius C is a small CITY car. Regular Prius or different car alltogether is better suited for long distance hwy driving.


There's a $5k difference in the starting price. Is the C that horrible on the highway?
crazy.gif



The new Explorer has a cruising range of 316 miles. Why isn't this an issue?


Who said it wasn't an issue?
 
That still gives you a range of at least 300 miles. That is average for most cars. My gas tank holds 17.5 gallons but I only have a range of about 280 miles.
Originally Posted By: MarkM66
It came up in another post that the Prius C only has a 9 Gal. gas tank. For those who drive a lot, that's way to small IMO.
 
Obviously, I've missed all of the threads where people were complaining about their cars with 350-500 mile ranges...
 
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