Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment)

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: motortrend.com

The fuel economy advantages and subsequent money savings of hybrid vehicles over their non-hybrid counterparts is often a major consideration when making a new vehicle purchase. But how much does a hybrid really save you? More precisely, how long does it take to even out the higher up-front cost of a hybrid over the often-cheaper non-hybrid? Here are 10 examples of some of the more popular hybrids on the market and how long it’d take you to start raking in the savings compared to buying a non-hybrid version (or equivalent in a few cases). We’ve used the latest average national fuel prices ($2.24-$2.70) and a mix of 55 percent stop-and-go driving to calculate the cost per year for each vehicle when driving 15,000 and 30,000 miles each year.

The best is Lincoln MKZ Hybrid, because it costs the same as non-hybrid. The worse is Lexus RX 450h over RX 350, RX 450h is more powerful than RX 350 but it takes 103 years to recover the upfront cost.

Originally Posted By: motortrend.com

If your aim is low operating costs, Toyota has one of the best reputations in the business for cheap running. All else being equal, what about those tantalizing fuel economy numbers the tiny Prius c and snazzy new Prius posted up (53/46 mpg for the c, and 54/50 mpg for the Prius)? Against the lowly Corolla, which is estimated by the EPA to get just 27/36 mpg city/highway with a four-speed automatic, the two hybrids are no match in the long game: five years for the absolute cheapest Prius c and an absurd your-kid-will-drive-it 16 years and 5 months to make up the difference between a cheap Corolla and the Prius Eco.

Not talking about Prius's ugly looking exterior. http://www.motortrend.com/news/hybrids-how-long-takes-get-money-back/

 

[Andy636]

Hybrids and electrics are nothing but a hype for the time being. Plenty of cars out there than can do 40MPG in horrible day to day REAL LIFE DRIVING so why bother with a hybrid, as for the electric ones...let's not fool ourselves...even if you get free electricity, it will take a long time time to offset the vehicle acquisition price.

 

[Burt]

They actually think this is notable? With today's low gas prices, I think I knew the answer before they sharpened their pencil. Ponder how the economics of wind, solar, coal and nuclear went south with dropping natural gas as well.

 

[fdcg27]

Any savings involved in running a hybrid are obviously dependent on fuel costs. Hybrid vehicle market pricing is also heavily dependent on the current cost of fuel. There is a positive relationship between market fuel costs and the pricing of hybrid vehicles. Now would be a good time to buy a hybrid or any other very economical vehicle, since their current pricing reflects the low current pricing of fuel. The only question is when fuel costs start to rise significantly and that may be years in the future. Still, if the economics of hybrid cars are so questionable, then why are most of the cabs in Socal hybrids?

 

[Andrew1972]

Fuel savings are in the city cycle not overall. So in certain cases like short trip, city or taxi service they have distinct advantage. If cycle is more towards highway mpg the gap has considerably narrowed and agree no significant advantage when balanced against the overprice of hybrid tech.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Andy636

Hybrids and electrics are nothing but a hype for the time being. Plenty of cars out there than can do 40MPG in horrible day to day REAL LIFE DRIVING so why bother with a hybrid, as for the electric ones...let's not fool ourselves...even if you get free electricity, it will take a long time time to offset the vehicle acquisition price.

I highly doubt you'll find most US vehicles doing >40 in real day to day traffic with stop lights and stop and go. Please provide prove able objective to the contrary if you disagree. ************************* As for me, I consolidated three cars, and my highest was consistently at 35mpg ish. The combined increase in interior space, fact that I don't get 40 unless I drive like an idiot and blaze heat (more like 45-50 and if I do all city for a tank it can be much over 50). A car like a Prius is on par with s Corolla and Camry. My accord is... An accord. With a slightly smaller trunk that's not in practice any smaller as it's the same as the vehicles it replaced, which had mush less interior volume. All that said, I probably wouldn't have paid $30kfir a new one (or bought s new car at all), but the $25k I paid was compellingly good. I'd live an rx450h, but the value proposition isn't there.

 

[gathermewool]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2

Originally Posted By: Andy636

Hybrids and electrics are nothing but a hype for the time being. Plenty of cars out there than can do 40MPG in horrible day to day REAL LIFE DRIVING so why bother with a hybrid, as for the electric ones...let's not fool ourselves...even if you get free electricity, it will take a long time time to offset the vehicle acquisition price.

I highly doubt you'll find most US vehicles doing >40 in real day to day traffic with stop lights and stop and go. Please provide prove able objective to the contrary if you disagree.

+1 However, my Civic will top out at around 37 mpg, if driven efficiently. Lowest has been closer to 32 mpg, in the winter months. With that said, can a Prius (regular size) be compared to a Civic in terms of practicality? I wouldn't think so.

 

[SF0059]

I'm now commuting 120 miles a day and I did the math on a hybrid. It would certainly take too long to cover the costs, especially since they get poorer highway mileage than in the city. Also, you have to think about whether or not the batteries will last long enough to make up your cost. Most hybrids use a battery pack made up of 18650 batteries run in banks of series, then linked up in parallel. These are the same batteries that many business laptops use. How long before you stop seeing performance out of a laptop battery? For me it is 2-3 years. You add to that the heat the battery pack will experience in a vehicle. Heat degrades Lithium batteries quickly, so they are going to degrade faster in this type of application, especially if it gets hot in the summer. My wife's cousin had a 2nd generation Prius he had owned since new. He used it to commute in congested Philadelphia. I think the battery bit the dust at 150k. It wasn't worth fixing and it traded it in for pocket change on a new Subaru. He did the math and he never made that hybrid premium up through the life of the vehicle, especially when you consider how much value he lost when the batteries died. Until battery technology improves drastically, I won't be buying a hybrid or plug-in hybrid.

 

[Phishin]

As of now and unless gas hit $5/gallon, I don't see any reason to get a hybrid. I don't get it the attraction. However, I do like vehicles like the Chevy Volt...where you can drive up to 50 miles on just the battery before the engine starts. I think that would appeal to a lot of people who have short commutes to work. I drive 6 miles to work. Drive 6 miles home. The grocery store is about the same distance away. I could do all of this and never burn a drop of gas. That's pretty cool. And when I need to get on the highway, no worries, the drives pretty efficiently there too.

 

[Danno]

Car manufacturers will continue to engineer, build and sell hybrids, plug-ins etc, because they are forced to, due to rising fuel efficiency standards. The consumer no longer determines what products are offered and succeed. The gov't has taken over that role. You will pay for the extra costs either in tax payer funded car purchase subsidies, higher overall car prices to fund hybrid development, and road taxes per mile driven as cars become more fuel efficient thereby reducing the tax haul from fuel taxes.

 

[supton]

Weird, this is just like deja vue... Wasn't this sort of article all the rage when hybrids first came out? Odd, I recall gas prices spiking hard a few years after that, and suddenly those hybrids weren't so bad after all. Now no one can understand the need for hybrids. Again. I'm probably being too harsh. The general population is seemingly unwilling to consider long term costs and long term planning. I guess articles like these would be good for them, give them real examples of how these will likely cost more for the typical term of ownership, and maybe even prod them into doing the math themselves. Then again... probably not.

 

[AirgunSavant]

I personally owned a few and never thought or cared about recovering the cost. Plus I can get a hybrid Fusion for pennies over a regular one. So that math does not work. Yeah I can get 22 mpg in my F350 just like cars can get 40 mpg. However as soon as I hit one hill I'm back at 13 mpg. Buy what you like......... recouping $$$ is for bean counters. And the new Prius in its ugliness is actually cool because its different.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: Andy636

Hybrids and electrics are nothing but a hype for the time being. Plenty of cars out there than can do 40MPG in horrible day to day REAL LIFE DRIVING so why bother with a hybrid, as for the electric ones...let's not fool ourselves...even if you get free electricity, it will take a long time time to offset the vehicle acquisition price.

What vehicles pull off 40mpg regardless of sitting in traffic or blasting down the highway? You're not thinking of the vehicles overseas, are you? I wouldn't mind having another 40mpg vehicle, again. Gas prices will go again, someday. I rather liked my TDi, but in the end, the turbo diesel was likely more expensive than a hybrid solution, but so much more fun to drive. But the argument of a dull hybrid vs small engine / small car is a different thread altogether.

 

[NateDN10]

The math changes if you look at lightly-used cars. For example, around here I can get a 2014 Prius for $15K or a 2015 Focus for $14K. Over 80,000 miles of driving the Prius is about $1500 cheaper (just counting initial purchase price and fuel). It's still not a huge deal, but it starts to make more sense. Used Chevy Volts are also much cheaper than new ones. I found a 2013 for $14K. If you use pretty much 100% electric, that's cheaper than a 2015 Focus after you drive it home (granted the car is 2 years older).

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27

Any savings involved in running a hybrid are obviously dependent on fuel costs. Hybrid vehicle market pricing is also heavily dependent on the current cost of fuel. There is a positive relationship between market fuel costs and the pricing of hybrid vehicles. Now would be a good time to buy a hybrid or any other very economical vehicle, since their current pricing reflects the low current pricing of fuel. The only question is when fuel costs start to rise significantly and that may be years in the future. Still, if the economics of hybrid cars are so questionable, then why are most of the cabs in Socal hybrids?

I couldn't have stated this any better.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27

Still, if the economics of hybrid cars are so questionable, then why are most of the cabs in Socal hybrids?

Doesn't Cali offer significant incentives for hybrid buyers? Also, cabs normally rack up miles fast. The quicker you rack up miles, the quicker you can break even, so that's why hybrids make more sense for taxis, IMO. SoCal also has horrendous traffic. When you spend a lot of time in heavy traffic, the differences in fuel economy between hybrids and regular cars seem the most pronounced.

 

[UncleDave]

I can only speak for myself, but in my case I saw an ROI in about 5 years with my 06 Rx400H. Battery is rock solid at 90K miles. I get about 25 MPG and 3 similar sized vehicles Ive driven/ borrowed/ rented over the same loop get about 15. RX-330 Ford Edge V6 Nissan Murano Oh sure you can get good freeway miles, on those rigs but let the mileage average over 2-3K on the city or a combined loop and their #'s plummet to way below the EPA city cycle. The 400H not only destroys its gas only counterparts in performance, but in the combined and city only cycle. I've gotten a pretty stout payback and am now reaping the rewards. UD

 

[Nate1979]

The article was a little light on details and I doubt the accuracy. There are too many variables to draw an absolute conclusion for the more reasonable hybrids.

 

[Noey]

Not many people spend the extra money up front to save it down the road, hybrids and EV's are purchased b/c they're environmentally friendlier. Most folks make their car buying decisions based on emotion anyways. Sticker shock is a one time experience, the weekly MPG calculation at the pump counter balances that for most folks.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: SF0059

I'm now commuting 120 miles a day and I did the math on a hybrid. It would certainly take too long to cover the costs, especially since they get poorer highway mileage than in the city. Also, you have to think about whether or not the batteries will last long enough to make up your cost. Most hybrids use a battery pack made up of 18650 batteries run in banks of series, then linked up in parallel. These are the same batteries that many business laptops use. How long before you stop seeing performance out of a laptop battery? For me it is 2-3 years. You add to that the heat the battery pack will experience in a vehicle. Heat degrades Lithium batteries quickly, so they are going to degrade faster in this type of application, especially if it gets hot in the summer. My wife's cousin had a 2nd generation Prius he had owned since new. He used it to commute in congested Philadelphia. I think the battery bit the dust at 150k. It wasn't worth fixing and it traded it in for pocket change on a new Subaru. He did the math and he never made that hybrid premium up through the life of the vehicle, especially when you consider how much value he lost when the batteries died. Until battery technology improves drastically, I won't be buying a hybrid or plug-in hybrid.

Cry me a river, mine is rated at 47 highway vs 50 city. Practically it's more like 45 highway. Boo hoo. Show me another accord that will do that repeatedly with provable objective evidence, please. Your point about laptop cells is moot because consumer electronics are run in a much wider state of charge window, which creates a lot more strain in the structure. Plus it's a totally different chemistry. Hybrids and EVs use between 10-50% of the pack rating. The narrower you keep the soc window, the more cycles you can get. All the doom and gloom of Prius batteries was proven false, same will be the case for Li-ion. There are other reasons not to like EVs/hybrids, but let's not spread misinformation.