Hybrid and ROI (Return Of Invesment)

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Originally Posted By: SF0059
I'm now commuting 120 miles a day and I did the math on a hybrid. It would certainly take too long to cover the costs, especially since they get poorer highway mileage than in the city.
That "poor" highway mpg is still likely 20+% better than most other vehicles.
Quote:
My wife's cousin had a 2nd generation Prius he had owned since new. He used it to commute in congested Philadelphia. I think the battery bit the dust at 150k. It wasn't worth fixing and it traded it in for pocket change on a new Subaru. He did the math and he never made that hybrid premium up through the life of the vehicle, especially when you consider how much value he lost when the batteries died.
He could have replaced the battery (3 or 4 grand, tops, or what an automatic transmission goes for--which might have been done for around these miles in a conventional car) and kept motoring on. Or gotten a better trade-in. If the rest of the car was shot then I have to wonder if any other vehicle likewise would not be shot, and thus subject to the same depreciation.
 
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Cry me a river, mine is rated at 47 highway vs 50 city. Practically it's more like 45 highway. Boo hoo. Show me another accord that will do that repeatedly with provable objective evidence, please. Your point about laptop cells is moot because consumer electronics are run in a much wider state of charge window, which creates a lot more strain in the structure. Plus it's a totally different chemistry. Hybrids and EVs use between 10-50% of the pack rating. The narrower you keep the soc window, the more cycles you can get. All the doom and gloom of Prius batteries was proven false, same will be the case for Li-ion. There are other reasons not to like EVs/hybrids, but let's not spread misinformation. [/quote] Thanks for the confirmation why so many of us dislike so many of you.
 
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gathermewool

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Originally Posted By: Noey
Quote:
Cry me a river, mine is rated at 47 highway vs 50 city. Practically it's more like 45 highway. Boo hoo. Show me another accord that will do that repeatedly with provable objective evidence, please. Your point about laptop cells is moot because consumer electronics are run in a much wider state of charge window, which creates a lot more strain in the structure. Plus it's a totally different chemistry. Hybrids and EVs use between 10-50% of the pack rating. The narrower you keep the soc window, the more cycles you can get. All the doom and gloom of Prius batteries was proven false, same will be the case for Li-ion. There are other reasons not to like EVs/hybrids, but let's not spread misinformation.
Thanks for the confirmation why so many of us dislike so many of you.
You mean people who call out trolls on their bull? Yeah, how dare 'em! duh
 
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The motortrend analysis is a urine-poor assessment. You really have to crunch the numbers with your own particular driving habits, operating cost, and locals deals. What a lot of folks like to focus on is that as gas prices go down, it takes longer to recoup, but low gas prices also drive down the price of the Hybrid on the lot as slow-seller will have better incentives. So the gap between a hybrid and conventional will shrink in low-gas price months. One odd thing is that the Prius IV is closer to a Camry-hatch alternatives than a Corolla and the MkIII was a "mid-sized" car in classification compared to the Corolla's Compact status. Also, you have to buy the premium option with some of the trim packages for some models. So you can't take the stripper with a stick and then compare it to the Hybrid-Luxury model as the equipment is different.
 
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Yet the lack of a lower end equipment model is a valid complaint. If I want a hybrid with crank down windows and it's not available, that's a negative. (Not saying the Corolla has that, it's just an example.) I agree, one has to make the comparison apples to apples as much as is possible. Yet if you want an apple, but they hybrid only comes in the sushi boat format...
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
The motortrend analysis is a urine-poor assessment. You really have to crunch the numbers with your own particular driving habits, operating cost, and locals deals. What a lot of folks like to focus on is that as gas prices go down, it takes longer to recoup, but low gas prices also drive down the price of the Hybrid on the lot as slow-seller will have better incentives. So the gap between a hybrid and conventional will shrink in low-gas price months. One odd thing is that the Prius IV is closer to a Camry-hatch alternatives than a Corolla and the MkIII was a "mid-sized" car in classification compared to the Corolla's Compact status. Also, you have to buy the premium option with some of the trim packages for some models. So you can't take the stripper with a stick and then compare it to the Hybrid-Luxury model as the equipment is different.
 
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Real world users: Accord: 29MPG average (on fuel economy.gov) $22,205/$23,840LX with auto. vs. Accord Hybrid base model: 42.5MPG average (on fuel economy.gov) $29,305 Roughly the same equipment level. $5,000 buys a lot of gas @ $2.50/gal, roughly 2000 gallons. The break even point is close to 150,000 miles.
 
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Sure, but for how long are we going to enjoy under three buck fuel? I personally think it'll be at least a decade based upon fundamental supply factors, especially those suppliers who will pour back into the market as prices rise. Still, the certainty of low fuel costs per mile even at much higher pump prices does have some value even with current low fuel prices.
 
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Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: Noey
Quote:
Cry me a river, mine is rated at 47 highway vs 50 city. Practically it's more like 45 highway. Boo hoo. Show me another accord that will do that repeatedly with provable objective evidence, please. Your point about laptop cells is moot because consumer electronics are run in a much wider state of charge window, which creates a lot more strain in the structure. Plus it's a totally different chemistry. Hybrids and EVs use between 10-50% of the pack rating. The narrower you keep the soc window, the more cycles you can get. All the doom and gloom of Prius batteries was proven false, same will be the case for Li-ion. There are other reasons not to like EVs/hybrids, but let's not spread misinformation.
Thanks for the confirmation why so many of us dislike so many of you.
You mean people who call out trolls on their bull? Yeah, how dare 'em! duh
Calling out trolls, +1. Being snarky and self righteous, Prius. Do the math.
 

gathermewool

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Originally Posted By: Noey
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
Originally Posted By: Noey
Quote:
Cry me a river, mine is rated at 47 highway vs 50 city. Practically it's more like 45 highway. Boo hoo. Show me another accord that will do that repeatedly with provable objective evidence, please. Your point about laptop cells is moot because consumer electronics are run in a much wider state of charge window, which creates a lot more strain in the structure. Plus it's a totally different chemistry. Hybrids and EVs use between 10-50% of the pack rating. The narrower you keep the soc window, the more cycles you can get. All the doom and gloom of Prius batteries was proven false, same will be the case for Li-ion. There are other reasons not to like EVs/hybrids, but let's not spread misinformation.
Thanks for the confirmation why so many of us dislike so many of you.
You mean people who call out trolls on their bull? Yeah, how dare 'em! duh
Calling out trolls, +1. Being snarky and self righteous, Prius. Do the math.
Can't always argue against you on that one.
 

HTSS_TR

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Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
The motortrend analysis is a urine-poor assessment. You really have to crunch the numbers with your own particular driving habits, operating cost, and locals deals. What a lot of folks like to focus on is that as gas prices go down, it takes longer to recoup, but low gas prices also drive down the price of the Hybrid on the lot as slow-seller will have better incentives. So the gap between a hybrid and conventional will shrink in low-gas price months. One odd thing is that the Prius IV is closer to a Camry-hatch alternatives than a Corolla and the MkIII was a "mid-sized" car in classification compared to the Corolla's Compact status. Also, you have to buy the premium option with some of the trim packages for some models. So you can't take the stripper with a stick and then compare it to the Hybrid-Luxury model as the equipment is different.
Local deal on hybrid is on a particular buyer, Motortrend or any national magazine can't do that, they have to use MSRP. Toyota Prius is more like Corolla than Camry, Camry has its own hybrid version. Few things that are hard to take into comparison are: more parts in a hybrid therefore more chance to fail and more costly maintenance/repair. Hybrid's battery will not lasted forever and costly to replace. Hybrid has smaller passenger and cargo space because of extra parts. It is very easy to see that hybrid may be good for environment and may be good for pocket if gasoline is above $4-5/gal.
 
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Originally Posted By: Cujet
Real world users: Accord: 29MPG average (on fuel economy.gov) $22,205/$23,840LX with auto. vs. Accord Hybrid base model: 42.5MPG average (on fuel economy.gov) $29,305 Roughly the same equipment level. $5,000 buys a lot of gas @ $2.50/gal, roughly 2000 gallons. The break even point is close to 150,000 miles.
Yep. Just by a gas engine and invest the difference.
 
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No, hybrids will not make bean counting sense. My golf wagon was 18k, will touch 40 mpg freeway, and can fit an obscene amount of cargo inside. So if you only look at price, MPG, and capability, there is no hybrid that can come anywhere near it. You can keep your Prius, i'l keep shifting my turbo wagon thanks. Where the hybrid makes sense is something like the Accord. if someone wants an Accord and doesn't mind a modest upgrade, they can have an overall nicer car with better MPG. The ROI may not come, but at least you know you can operate the car for less fuel money on a weekly basis after its paid off. I would think the hybrid accord would resale higher making the ROI argument fairly mute. Plus the Hybrid base model is not comparable to the LX trim, you get a lot of other nice stuff too.
 

gathermewool

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Originally Posted By: dareo
I would think the hybrid accord would resale higher making the ROI argument fairly mute. Plus the Hybrid base model is not comparable to the LX trim, you get a lot of other nice stuff too.
You bring up a good point. Some people like to keep their cars for a very long time, negating most of the benefits of lower depreciation; however, a lot of people trade every five years or so. How does this calculation change if one buys a 3 year-old Hybrid and gets rid of it after another 3-4, compared to its non-hybrid counter-part?
 
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Gas won't stay low forever. Buying a fuel-sipper can and does make sense for certain uses. Taxis are an obvious one. Same with traveling consultants or the like who put 35-40k miles onto their cars a year. Having been in the situation of driving 30k miles a year, a fuel-sipper made sense at that time. Now it's gravy with the low fuel prices.
 

JHZR2

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Originally Posted By: Cujet
Real world users: Accord: 29MPG average (on fuel economy.gov) $22,205/$23,840LX with auto. vs. Accord Hybrid base model: 42.5MPG average (on fuel economy.gov) $29,305 Roughly the same equipment level. $5,000 buys a lot of gas @ $2.50/gal, roughly 2000 gallons. The break even point is close to 150,000 miles.
Yet I paid just a hair over $25k for mine, and it's better outfit than the lowest end lx (which has undersized brakes amongst other things). So not roughly the same equipment level. And not the same break even. And with gas going up, it will come sooner. Despite all the claims, most users do not drive an entire tank all at temperature highway cruising, and most spend plenty of time idling/sitting in traffic or at lights. Practically speaking no vehicle of any real size will hit 40 mpg let alone 45+, the way the hybrids will. So in effect it's a doubling of mpgs or a halving of fuel cost.
 
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Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Local deal on hybrid is on a particular buyer, Motortrend or any national magazine can't do that, they have to use MSRP. Toyota Prius is more like Corolla than Camry, Camry has its own hybrid version. Few things that are hard to take into comparison are: more parts in a hybrid therefore more chance to fail and more costly maintenance/repair. Hybrid's battery will not lasted forever and costly to replace. Hybrid has smaller passenger and cargo space because of extra parts. It is very easy to see that hybrid may be good for environment and may be good for pocket if gasoline is above $4-5/gal.
MSRP assumes a static price, we all know that it is a fluid number, just as gasoline is as well. Considering that the sale price of Hybrid is correlated with gas prices, it is easy to work a lower OTD price during cheap gas that reduces the return threshold. If you are doing a ROI, then you should do a range with high/low numbers. The Prius and Corolla are two separate comparisons. I can ride in the backseat of a Prius from SC to DC with ease. I have significant experience with both. Rear comfort for a long trip in a Corolla? Not so much. Folks like to kink the two but they are two different models and they don't really work for a lot of comparisons. For example: The Corolla has 110cuft of interior volume, the Camry has 118cuft... the Prius has 117cuft. (Oh, and the Prius has more cargo space). Now the Camry has its own hybrid line, but if you are going to compare the Prius to a non-Hybrid, then a Camry would be a better alternative to the Corolla. Plus, there is only $100- difference between the non-hybrid Camry and Prius base model... but try and get a discount on a Camry... the Prius is the better deal. The break-even point of Hybrids is model specific, but at $3 and up per gallon things look better. You also need to factor in your commute. Hybrid earn their butter in heavy start-stop work. So if you have a downtown or traffic crammed commute, then things get better for the battery assist. If you have a mid-speed (40-60mph) open traffic commute things are easier for the normal car. Finally, cost to maintain. Have you even goggled hybrid repair/schedules? With the exception of Ford's brakes (personal experience here), the hybrid systems have been more than reliable. Actually, they look to have been severely over-engineered in retrospect. 10-15yo Prius with 200K miles are known to have 70%+ of their battery life and will likely outlive their fuel-burning mechanical mate. If someone told you that at 200K miles that you engine was only 30% through it life, then you would do somersaults. If something does go wrong and a full battery replacement is needed, it is just a few hundred bucks ($800 from a yard) ... less than a dealer timing belt or head-gasket. My 2005 Ford Hybrid (Fleet) is still strong at 167K miles (except for that brake issue).
 

UncleDave

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As far as brakes go on the lexus/toyota hybrid regen gives you about .3G of stopping power. This secondary braking allows the front pads to have an exceptionally long life. Im at 90K and and estimated to have about 10K remaining on the original set. On easy stops you can brake quite nicely without ever pushing through to the foundation brakes. Another thing oft left out of long term value is the added resale value over the non hybrid counterpart. UD
 
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