2012 Mustang 3.7L V6 - High Performance Lubricants HDEO 5w-20 - 15,437 miles

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I collected a sample of the oil from my wife's 2012 Mustang V6. The sample was extracted through the dipstick tube. This is the first run on High Performance Lubricants HDEO 5w-20. I'll likely check again at ~20k miles.

Code:
OIL High Performance Lubricants HDEO 5w-20
MILES IN USE 15,437
MILES 152,004
SAMPLE TAKEN 04/12/2021

ALUMINUM 8
CHROMIUM 
IRON 14 
COPPER 21 
LEAD 
TIN 
MOLYBDENUM 593 
NICKEL 
MANGANESE 
SILVER 
TITANIUM 
POTASSIUM 1 
BORON 37 
SILICON 24 
SODIUM 9 
CALCIUM 3473 
MAGNESIUM 442 
PHOSPHORUS 866 
ZINC 1029 
BARIUM 

INSOLUBLES 
WATER  FLASHPOINT 
SUS VIS 210 
cSt @ 212 9.5
TBN 3.2

4-16-2021 - HPL HDEO 5w-20, 15400 miles - Without Previous Reports.jpg
 
I wasn't too surprised by the TBN drop as 40-50% of this OCI was city driving and short trips. My wife also has a tendency to leave it idling a lot.
 
I wasn't too surprised by the TBN drop as 40-50% of this OCI was city driving and short trips. My wife also has a tendency to leave it idling a lot.
I wonder if there's enough reserve to neutralize acid at such a drop since TAN was not tested. I'd be definitely concerned.
 
I wonder if there's enough reserve to neutralize acid at such a drop since TAN was not tested. I'd be definitely concerned.

I'm not too concerned at this point. I'll sample it again at 20k miles to see if the TBN is holding well. If it falls on down below 2.0, then I'll change it. Looking at this though, it would be plenty safe at 15k mile intervals if I was to decide on that.
 
I'm not too concerned at this point. I'll sample it again at 20k miles to see if the TBN is holding well. If it falls on down below 2.0, then I'll change it. Looking at this though, it would be plenty safe at 15k mile intervals if I was to decide on that.
From ML:
Historical test data shows the relationship between TBN and TAN to be quite consistent. TAN just begins to increase when TBN depletion reaches 50 percent. As the TBN drops below 50 percent, TAN begins increasing rapidly. So in reality, TBN depletion can reach about 65 percent before it becomes necessary to change the oil.
 
I find no oil added was the impressive part. As well as the viscosity which is really good for the miles, though not knowing the starting viscosity
 
I find no oil added was the impressive part. As well as the viscosity which is really good for the miles, though not knowing the starting viscosity

It was only down ~0.25 qt at that mileage, not enough to go out of the crosshatch on the stick. I topped it off after taking the sample. The starting viscosity was 9.1 I think.
 
Staying in grade? probably oxidizing out of grade

Stick with it the 20k intervals... maybe you can pull the oil pan and rocker covers in a few years and post some pictures

Looks like a stout oil. Will have to grab some for my 5k mile intervals and also run it in my small engines(generators, lawn tractor/mowers....).
 
This oil is formulated with a 24ssi VI improver. Therefore it does not shear out of grade. It also runs a PDSC north of 120 minutes at 200C at 500 PSI of oxygen. With that knowledge you will now understand it is not oxidized. Our oils also have Ester in the formulation so yes 20,000 mile oil drains will also generate some pretty good pictures. These are the results you see when you do not cut corners when choosing good raw materials to blend with. No magic. Just good choices.

David
 
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The thread is about a 20 grade. How many 20 grades in this forum, or others, has sheared out of grade?

So, HPL, why does the UOA show it as a 30 grade per SAE J300? did it magically 'unshear it' one grade higher?

Good raw materials, no magic, but bad oil change interval choices are something I don't support or recommend.

I wouldn't run that much of an extended interval without a TBN/TAN/particlesount/oxidation/nitration... including the needed comparator VOA.
 
This oil is formulated with a 24ssi VI improver. Therefore it does not shear out of grade. It also runs a PDSC north of 120 minutes at 200C at 500 PSI of oxygen. With that knowledge you will now understand it is not oxidized. Our oils also have Ester in the formulation so yes 20,000 mile oil drains will also generate some pretty good pictures. These are the results you see when you do not cut corners when choosing good raw materials to blend with. No magic. Just good choices.

David
I have been impressed with how the oils hold up in the uoas posted here.
 
I have been impressed with how the oils hold up in the uoas posted here.
Thank you. The takeaway here is that it is generally understood that oils will thicken with age. If you formulate with VI improvers that are less stable the resulting loss from the VI improver and the slight thickening with age will cancel each other out. Yes it is less important on an xW20 than a formulation than one that has higher VI concentration. I chose to not even buy 35 SSI VI Improvers for my plant. We sell more products with a higher split. We also use Star polymers that have even better shear stability than OCP’s. It is not uncommon to see a rise in vis with our products vs a loss that you would expect to see. What Bryce has seen here is much like what Wayne saw with his sample data. Long drain, great wear trends, and little to no oil consumption. This of course perfectly checks off the list of performance we intend to bring to the table. Long drains aren’t for everyone. For those looking for extended drains, we will likely be good friends.

David
 
This oil is formulated with a 24ssi VI improver. Therefore it does not shear out of grade. It also runs a PDSC north of 120 minutes at 200C at 500 PSI of oxygen. With that knowledge you will now understand it is not oxidized. Our oils also have Ester in the formulation so yes 20,000 mile oil drains will also generate some pretty good pictures. These are the results you see when you do not cut corners when choosing good raw materials to blend with. No magic. Just good choices.

David
David,
I have both pdf files for HPL PCMO and HDEO typical properties of the engine oils.
Do you also have that information for Euro 5W-30 oil? Is that the only euro grade you make?
My manual has Spec. VW 502.00 / 5W-30 or 5W-40 grade.
Can I use 5W-40 PCMO or would 5W-30 Euro be more appropriate?
Thanks.
 
The wear metals are commendable. The contamination is low. There's no reason not to extend the OCI.

As for TBN/TAN, I continue to have the opinion that most other people's opinions are ill-informed. The inversion (when TAN crosses over TBN) of the base/acid relationship is NOT, in and of itself, a reason to change oil. When the "flip" occurs, it's a reason to perhaps monitor the fluid closer, a bit more often. There is not one shred of historical proof that as soon as the crossover occurs, horrible things happen. Way back in the day, when diesel fuels were high-sulphur and all engines had open crankcase vents (allowing a lot of moisture in upon cool down), acid build up could happen fairly quickly; those days are LONG gone. The crossover of TBN/TAN is a very good reason to start paying a bit closer attention to your wear metals, because at some point, the acid may become an issue. But it's NOT a foregone conclusion that crossover is going to nearly immediately destroy an engine. Crossover is a tell-tale sign that you should have a heightened sense of vigilance, not an OCD driven rush to the tool box for the wrenches.

The time to change oil is unique to each person; we all have a different threshold. Some go by time and/or distance; what "feels right" to them. That's OK. Other's choose a deeper analytical approach; UOAs. But even UOAs can be either used as a toy, or a tool. A UOA is a toy when you pay for data and then ignore the data and make conclusions based on partial truths or illogical condemnation points. A UOA is a tool when you understand the entire relationship between the following:
- individual equipment history (what has your engine/tranny/diff/bearings been exposed to in terms of service factor? micro-data)
- series equipment history (what does the engine/tranny/diff/bearings typically exhibit when 100k other people also own them? macro-data)
- lubricant construction (base stocks, additives, vis, FP, etc)
- what environmental elements are present in typical operation?
- do you understand the concept of the TCB and how it affects wear?
- do you understand that UOAs are not perfect, and to use the UOA correctly, you have to understand its limitations?
- do you understand that UOAs are by far and away, the cheapest and easiest way to predict wear, as opposed to other methods?
- do you also pay attention to other clues such as noises, and visual indicators like fluid levels?
- do you use the points above to set condemnation points which are realistic for your overall maintenance plan? (wear rates, wear totals, contamination, etc)

I have over 20k UOAs in my database, and with rare exception, the base/acid crossover has historically shown absolutely no correlation to an increase in wear metal rates in most circumstances. And without correlation, there can be no causation.

'Nuff said.
 
The wear metals are commendable. The contamination is low. There's no reason not to extend the OCI.

As for TBN/TAN, I continue to have the opinion that most other people's opinions are ill-informed. The inversion (when TAN crosses over TBN) of the base/acid relationship is NOT, in and of itself, a reason to change oil. When the "flip" occurs, it's a reason to perhaps monitor the fluid closer, a bit more often. There is not one shred of historical proof that as soon as the crossover occurs, horrible things happen. Way back in the day, when diesel fuels were high-sulphur and all engines had open crankcase vents (allowing a lot of moisture in upon cool down), acid build up could happen fairly quickly; those days are LONG gone. The crossover of TBN/TAN is a very good reason to start paying a bit closer attention to your wear metals, because at some point, the acid may become an issue. But it's NOT a foregone conclusion that crossover is going to nearly immediately destroy an engine. Crossover is a tell-tale sign that you should have a heightened sense of vigilance, not an OCD driven rush to the tool box for the wrenches.

The time to change oil is unique to each person; we all have a different threshold. Some go by time and/or distance; what "feels right" to them. That's OK. Other's choose a deeper analytical approach; UOAs. But even UOAs can be either used as a toy, or a tool. A UOA is a toy when you pay for data and then ignore the data and make conclusions based on partial truths or illogical condemnation points. A UOA is a tool when you understand the entire relationship between the following:
- individual equipment history (what has your engine/tranny/diff/bearings been exposed to in terms of service factor? micro-data)
- series equipment history (what does the engine/tranny/diff/bearings typically exhibit when 100k other people also own them? macro-data)
- lubricant construction (base stocks, additives, vis, FP, etc)
- what environmental elements are present in typical operation?
- do you understand the concept of the TCB and how it affects wear?
- do you understand that UOAs are not perfect, and to use the UOA correctly, you have to understand its limitations?
- do you understand that UOAs are by far and away, the cheapest and easiest way to predict wear, as opposed to other methods?
- do you also pay attention to other clues such as noises, and visual indicators like fluid levels?
- do you use the points above to set condemnation points which are realistic for your overall maintenance plan? (wear rates, wear totals, contamination, etc)

I have over 20k UOAs in my database, and with rare exception, the base/acid crossover has historically shown absolutely no correlation to an increase in wear metal rates in most circumstances. And without correlation, there can be no causation.

'Nuff said.
I couldn’t agree more. Historically we have seen good results in vehicles with crossover while running the TBN down to 1. While I am not a fan of that it does cause you to ask the question why. There are multiple methods for TAN as well as TBN. If you have a higher acid number compared to base number you would pretty much have to assume your methods are measuring strong base and weaker acids. If the reverse were true you would then expect that you would see the opposite of what your data shows.

David
 
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