2009 Honda Pilot - Engine Piston Damage

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Originally Posted By: JOD
When a spark plug shoot out of a Ford cylinder head, where is the blanket condemnation of entire line of vehicles?


To be fair, the plug shooting out is a few hundred dollars to repair and doesn't require a new engine. Not quite in the same ballpark as this issue.
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
I agree with the plan to an oil which meets Honda's turbo spec, say Pennzoil Platinum 5W30. It's a thin 30 so it's not much over the recommended grade, and it obviously can withstand high temperatures. Ultra 5W30 with its low NOACK would be a good option as well, IMO.


11.gif
Sounds good, go against the mfg recommendation and reap the benefit. A few weeks ago this was a bad idea, when a few of us were matching oil viscosity to how an engine is going to be used, or if it had certain issues. Clearly in this case the one size fits all 20 grade oil might not cut it.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: JOD
When a spark plug shoot out of a Ford cylinder head, where is the blanket condemnation of entire line of vehicles?


To be fair, the plug shooting out is a few hundred dollars to repair and doesn't require a new engine. Not quite in the same ballpark as this issue.


Per plug! Seriously, I agree, but it's also FAR more prevalent; point being that there's a disproportionate amount of generalized brand bashing every time this specific issue comes up. This has nothing to do with an Odyssey transmission--and yet it gets mentioned in this very thread? Sorry, it's just stupid, IMO. All brands have some issues, and Honda engines in general seem to have fewer than most. I know that's little consolation to the OP right now...


Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: JOD
I agree with the plan to an oil which meets Honda's turbo spec, say Pennzoil Platinum 5W30. It's a thin 30 so it's not much over the recommended grade, and it obviously can withstand high temperatures. Ultra 5W30 with its low NOACK would be a good option as well, IMO.


11.gif
Sounds good, go against the mfg recommendation and reap the benefit. A few weeks ago this was a bad idea, when a few of us were matching oil viscosity to how an engine is going to be used, or if it had certain issues. Clearly in this case the one size fits all 20 grade oil might not cut it.


I certainly never said it was *always* a good idea to blindly follow the OEM guidelines, unless of course they're offering you a lifetime warranty! I said during one of those 20 page threads that there are some few specific cases where the OEM recommendations don't seem adequate, and mentioned this exact engine. So, "one size fits most" would be more like it. Honda specs an HTO-06 oil for some of its engines, along with programmed shorter OCI's. Seems as though they should have done so on this one as well, or better yet they should have managed the cylinder deactivation a little differently.
 
^^Depends on what you consider a "few", the point is one size doesn't always fit all. Warranty or not. I'd rather not have a mechanic tear into an engine under warranty if I can avoid it by using a different grade oil or shorter interval. Opinions vary.
 
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
For the sake of the OPr, can we please stay on topic; it is enough stress to deal with this issue without having to wade thru a bunch of people capitalizing on this to prove a point.

Thanks.


Most of this is on topic....
 
I'm not up on this vehicle or engine.

I thought that I might mention the replacement engine options, if that is the way that the Dealer/warranty company want to go.

Used Engine.....as in from a wrecked or otherwise salvaged vehicle.

Rebuilt Engine.....A used engine that has been repaired......

Re-manufactured Engine.....A used engine that has been more thoroughly gone over....sometimes manufacturer's approved updates have been made.......

In general, the BEST of the 3, (and most expensive) would be the Re-manufactured engine (such as one from Jasper).
They normally have a longer warranty and should be the most reliable of the 3.

If the warranty company will only pay for a "used" engine, you might offer to pay the difference and go with a re-manufactured engine.
This would be if you plan to hang onto your vehicle.
Of course.....how much money that is, and how long you plan to hang onto this vehicle will be the main factor in your choice.

After the problem is repaired......you might stick with a high quality synthetic oil.....and not a long Oil Change Interval.
If you change your own oil.....it is not expensive to use a high quality oil vs having a shop do it.
In general.....a high quality synthetic will be more resistant to sludge built up vs a non-synthetic.
Mobil 1 AFE or EP in the correct viscosity would be worth looking into (there are many others).
If you have a shop do it.....you could always bring your OWN oil.....but make SURE that it goes into your engine and not someone's trunk.
 
Originally Posted By: asharris7
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
For the sake of the OPr, can we please stay on topic; it is enough stress to deal with this issue without having to wade thru a bunch of people capitalizing on this to prove a point.

Thanks.


Most of this is on topic....



I don't mind all of the comments. Just about all of them are constructive and positive. My main goal was to inform other people of the situation with my engine. Hopefully it will help someone else with this engine prevent this problem, or understand it if it's too late to prevent it.
 
Unless there's no way around it, a 'used engine' should be avoided. Short of a full teardown, there's no way you can really be sure that installation of a used engine is a proper repair. Sure, most of them work, but is it really fair to say that the vehicle has been repaired when nobody knows for sure that it has?

By the time a used engine is known good it's basically a reman engine.
 
Originally Posted By: asharris7

I didn't write it, that's what I read....


So, reposting what you read w/o quoting the source makes it factual, no?

Fact of the matter is, moly coating in Honda's piston skirt bears no correlation to that of a typical motor oil related sludge.

We BITOGers strive for the truth and facts, not some hearsays and housewifey's tales.

Plse take care.

Q.
 
Originally Posted By: yonyon
Unless there's no way around it, a 'used engine' should be avoided. Short of a full teardown, there's no way you can really be sure that installation of a used engine is a proper repair. Sure, most of them work, but is it really fair to say that the vehicle has been repaired when nobody knows for sure that it has?

By the time a used engine is known good it's basically a reman engine.



+1 A used engine can be worse than what you have. Unless you know the car it came out of and the history of the engine, how it was cared for, its a [censored] shoot. If the engine you get was cared for according to the owners manual it could be as bad or worse than yours, you just don't know. I'd avoid it if at all possible, or ask for some sort of extended warranty on it.JMO
 
Originally Posted By: Vikas
The previous sledged up Odyssey example had spent all of its life doing NON-highway duty running on synthetic oil. Here is this Pilot doing mostly highway on dino. Which explanation works for both these cases?


Answer: None. This is a new problem based on new tech (for Honda) and the owners are doing the advanced testing for the mfgr.

The issue reminds me of the Pentastar problems in that no one can predict the failure, some do and most do not. Way less than one percent are actually failing. I have never heard any exact explanation from anyone, just conjecture.

The overwhelming majority of Honda owners do not experience these issues, but some particular combination of usage patterns and maintenance choices combined with poor engineering are coming together for certain folks. Once again, despite massive, even experienced, conjecture, no one can conclusively predict this issue.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Vikas
The previous sledged up Odyssey example had spent all of its life doing NON-highway duty running on synthetic oil. Here is this Pilot doing mostly highway on dino. Which explanation works for both these cases?


Answer: None. This is a new problem based on new tech (for Honda) and the owners are doing the advanced testing for the mfgr.

The issue reminds me of the Pentastar problems in that no one can predict the failure, some do and most do not. Way less than one percent are actually failing. I have never heard any exact explanation from anyone, just conjecture.

The overwhelming majority of Honda owners do not experience these issues, but some particular combination of usage patterns and maintenance choices combined with poor engineering are coming together for certain folks. Once again, despite massive, even experienced, conjecture, no one can conclusively predict this issue.


+1 It sucks when the consumer does the advanced testing, but is an unfortunate example of how new technology gets tested. Just like the Pentastar problem you made reference to, which I'm following very closely. In the case of Chrysler they're moving quickly since the Pentastar engine is in a major portion of their fleet. Three redesigns to the Cylinder heads and rumor has it they got it fixed. Just another reason why buying into any new engine design or technology in the first or second year is IMO not a good idea. Engineers make mistakes, period.

Are all these Honda engines bad, or the Pentastar engines bad? No way, but if you're unfortunate enough to have one of the bad ones it can really suck.
 
Originally Posted By: Quest
Originally Posted By: asharris7

I didn't write it, that's what I read....


So, reposting what you read w/o quoting the source makes it factual, no?

Fact of the matter is, moly coating in Honda's piston skirt bears no correlation to that of a typical motor oil related sludge.

We BITOGers strive for the truth and facts, not some hearsays and housewifey's tales.

Plse take care.




Q.



No need to be a complete jerk about it. Go grab a beer or something. You remind me of this chick I work with that has 24/7 Menstrual cycle. What I was stating is from a different thread on this site from a person that has a Honda VCM. That is all, didn't know I couldn't pass along tidbits of info I gather here..... Please take Care.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Vikas
The previous sledged up Odyssey example had spent all of its life doing NON-highway duty running on synthetic oil. Here is this Pilot doing mostly highway on dino. Which explanation works for both these cases?


Answer: None. This is a new problem based on new tech (for Honda) and the owners are doing the advanced testing for the mfgr.

The issue reminds me of the Pentastar problems in that no one can predict the failure, some do and most do not. Way less than one percent are actually failing. I have never heard any exact explanation from anyone, just conjecture.

The overwhelming majority of Honda owners do not experience these issues, but some particular combination of usage patterns and maintenance choices combined with poor engineering are coming together for certain folks. Once again, despite massive, even experienced, conjecture, no one can conclusively predict this issue.


+1 It sucks when the consumer does the advanced testing, but is an unfortunate example of how new technology gets tested. Just like the Pentastar problem you made reference to, which I'm following very closely. In the case of Chrysler they're moving quickly since the Pentastar engine is in a major portion of their fleet. Three redesigns to the Cylinder heads and rumor has it they got it fixed. Just another reason why buying into any new engine design or technology in the first or second year is IMO not a good idea. Engineers make mistakes, period.

Are all these Honda engines bad, or the Pentastar engines bad? No way, but if you're unfortunate enough to have one of the bad ones it can really suck.



Except I do not believe it is a "mistake", just a failure to do complete developmental testing for a longer period of time.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule


A soccer mom car with short trips perhaps? If so, it may not be getting up to temp such that it is forming cool temp sludge (mayonaise) and accelerating oxidation.

What I have seen on occasion is that the soccer mom generally makes short trips such that moisture and fuel are not being driven out of the system.

This leads to cool temp sludge.

Then a long trip to a soccer final many hours away gets the oil really hot but this only accelerates the oxidation which then turns into black sludge.



MolaKule posted the above in this thread: Honda 3.5 VTEC sludge

Even though he's just speaking of this operation cycle in general rather than as it relates specifically to the Honda 3.5 i-VTEC. When you take how this engine operates into consideration this is an interesting theory.

Consider the following in relation to one another:

- If cool temperature sludge forms in this engine as a consequence of repeated short trips.

- Followed by prolonged highway usage, wherein this particular engine causes either hot-spotting, or some other overheating of the oil due to this cylinder deactivation system.

- Oil that has exceeded its Heat vs. Time capacity

- An oil filter that can't cope with the drain interval and goes into bypass mode

- An optimistic Oil Life Monitor that doesn't flag severe operation

Collectively, this could be a good part of the overall picture here.

If it is a Heat vs. Time issue (and that's likely) a short interval synthetic meeting a turbo spec would probably be the solution.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: Vikas
The previous sledged up Odyssey example had spent all of its life doing NON-highway duty running on synthetic oil. Here is this Pilot doing mostly highway on dino. Which explanation works for both these cases?


Answer: None. This is a new problem based on new tech (for Honda) and the owners are doing the advanced testing for the mfgr.

The issue reminds me of the Pentastar problems in that no one can predict the failure, some do and most do not. Way less than one percent are actually failing. I have never heard any exact explanation from anyone, just conjecture.

The overwhelming majority of Honda owners do not experience these issues, but some particular combination of usage patterns and maintenance choices combined with poor engineering are coming together for certain folks. Once again, despite massive, even experienced, conjecture, no one can conclusively predict this issue.


+1 It sucks when the consumer does the advanced testing, but is an unfortunate example of how new technology gets tested. Just like the Pentastar problem you made reference to, which I'm following very closely. In the case of Chrysler they're moving quickly since the Pentastar engine is in a major portion of their fleet. Three redesigns to the Cylinder heads and rumor has it they got it fixed. Just another reason why buying into any new engine design or technology in the first or second year is IMO not a good idea. Engineers make mistakes, period.

Are all these Honda engines bad, or the Pentastar engines bad? No way, but if you're unfortunate enough to have one of the bad ones it can really suck.



Except I do not believe it is a "mistake", just a failure to do complete developmental testing for a longer period of time.



OK agreed. But engineers do make mistakes.
smile.gif
More testing might reveal them before they make it to the consumer level.
 
Originally Posted By: asharris7
I guess I mis-spoke. New control rings and Moly-skirts were due to oil consumption issues.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2413402#Post2413402

Your link is inapposite.

This is what Honda actually said in a 2011 press release regarding the design of the pistons and rings in its 4- and 6-cylinder engines: "Both the 4- and 6-cylinder engines make use of a new plateau honing technique for the cylinder bores that generates a smoother surface. As a result, the piston rings achieve more consistent contact with the cylinder walls which generates improved ring-to-bore sealing along with reduced overall friction.

"[Additionally, in] the 2.4L I-4, the pistons make use of a new low-tension piston ring that reduces operating friction while the 3.5L V-6 uses a redesigned ion-plated piston ring design. In addition, the outer skirts of both the 4- and 6-cylinder pistons now feature a molybdenum coating applied in a unique dot-pattern application. The result is reduced overall friction as the pistons move within the cylinder bores."

There was no mention of oil consumption problems in either engine.
 
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