The 20W Nellie has been beaten into horse burgers. There does not appear to be anything different about '20W engines' as others have noticed that outside of the US they're usually spec'd for 30W or even heavier oils. 20W oils are only spec'd for increased fuel mileage, the TSBs even say so, as the makers need to keep the fleet mileage up in order to sell the higher profit margin trucks and SUVs. Use 20W if you're a 20W fan, and/or want to help Ford and others sell their lower mileage vehicles, or if it's pretty cold where you live. Use 30W or heavier if you want like the rest of the world appears to do.
10w30 SO WRONG???
- Thread starter Timothy Ferguson
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Honestly, I don't give a gnat's buttocks what the rest of the world does. I'm also not so sure that you're right about cafe standards being the sole reason for the lower oil weights. If saving fuel was the reason behind this, than why wouldn't eco/resource conscious Europe do the same? And as far as Australia goes, aren't the average temps there pretty warm when compared to the U.S.?
I don't know, I just don't swallow the whole mileage conspiracy thing.
You know, andrews, I'm with you. I don't think it's a conspiracy. The thing that we do in America better than everywhere else in the world, bar none, is do things cost-effectively (cheaper).
The simple fact is, even IF an engine would wear out very slightly faster with an SAE20 than an SAE30 (which premise there's no evidence to support, BTW), it would still be cheaper to buy less fuel in the mean time and replace the vehicle when it wears out.
European cars have been reputed to last longer than American cars for decades. However, for those same decades it can be shown (and has many times, IIRC) that driving a Chevy, following book maintenance, and replacing it with another when it wears out is cheaper than buying a Euro (or Japanese) and doing the same.
As a side benefit, the newer car that you'll have if you have to replace the Chevy sooner will get better mileage, have better build quality, better crash protection, almost certainly more power, space, and comfort, and better durability than the old model you're replacing.
So, you see, there's simply no downside from an economic point of view. I understand that not everything is economic and that's fine with me, but the notion that a vehicle should last forever is just stupid from every point of view I know of (several listed above).
The simple fact is, even IF an engine would wear out very slightly faster with an SAE20 than an SAE30 (which premise there's no evidence to support, BTW), it would still be cheaper to buy less fuel in the mean time and replace the vehicle when it wears out.
European cars have been reputed to last longer than American cars for decades. However, for those same decades it can be shown (and has many times, IIRC) that driving a Chevy, following book maintenance, and replacing it with another when it wears out is cheaper than buying a Euro (or Japanese) and doing the same.
As a side benefit, the newer car that you'll have if you have to replace the Chevy sooner will get better mileage, have better build quality, better crash protection, almost certainly more power, space, and comfort, and better durability than the old model you're replacing.
So, you see, there's simply no downside from an economic point of view. I understand that not everything is economic and that's fine with me, but the notion that a vehicle should last forever is just stupid from every point of view I know of (several listed above).
Since Ford specifically stated why they started using 5W-20 I thought it would be obvious to all, but instead we have some sort of apparent cult that doesn't want to acknowledge it. If 5W-20 offered the same wear protection as 5W-30 it could be used as an across the board replacement, but since it doesn't it's not. Some SHO owners have noticed that they're not on the 'use' list so they shouldn't use it either. Portions of the TSB below:
http://www.f150online.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=121018&highlight=ford+oil+article
Article No.02-1-9
ENGINE - ENGINE OIL - RECOMMENDED APPLICATIONS FOR SAE 5W-20 AND SAE 5W-30 MOTOR OILS - GASOLINE AND FLEXIBLE FUEL VEHICLES ONLY
Publication Date: JANUARY 14, 2002
ISSUE: Ford Motor Company now recommends SAE 5W-20 viscosity grade for servicing most gasoline and flexible fueled vehicles.
ACTION: All 2001 and 2002 vehicles where SAE 5W-20 is specified should be serviced at the recommended oil change intervals using SAE 5W-20. This oil is an improved formulation to improve fuel economy. Testing has validated this viscosity grade can be used in many previous model year vehicles. It is recommended ALL vehicles on the following Vehicle Application Listing be service with SAE 5W-20.
All 2001-2002 vehicles other than those listed in the "Exception 2001 Vehicles" or "Exception 2002 Vehicles" chart are being filled with SAE 5W-20 motor oil at the factory and should also be serviced with SAE 5W-20 oil.
NOTE: THE "EXCEPTION 2001-2002 VEHICLES" SHOULD BE SERVICED WITH SAE 5W-30 MOTOR OIL.
Exception 2001 Vehicles
Engine Vehicle
3.3L Villager
3.9L Lincoln LS
4.0L Ranger, Explorer/Mountaineer, Explorer Sport, and Explorer Sport Trac
Exception 2002 Vehicles
Engine Vehicle
2.0L HP Zetec SVT Focus
3.3L Villager
4.0L Ranger, Explorer/Mountaineer, Explorer Sport, and Explorer Sport Trac
NOTE: IF VEHICLE IS NOT LISTED IN THIS APPLICATION, SAE 5W-30 OIL IS RECOMMENDED. REFER TO TSB 99-8-16.
http://www.f150online.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=121018&highlight=ford+oil+article
Article No.02-1-9
ENGINE - ENGINE OIL - RECOMMENDED APPLICATIONS FOR SAE 5W-20 AND SAE 5W-30 MOTOR OILS - GASOLINE AND FLEXIBLE FUEL VEHICLES ONLY
Publication Date: JANUARY 14, 2002
ISSUE: Ford Motor Company now recommends SAE 5W-20 viscosity grade for servicing most gasoline and flexible fueled vehicles.
ACTION: All 2001 and 2002 vehicles where SAE 5W-20 is specified should be serviced at the recommended oil change intervals using SAE 5W-20. This oil is an improved formulation to improve fuel economy. Testing has validated this viscosity grade can be used in many previous model year vehicles. It is recommended ALL vehicles on the following Vehicle Application Listing be service with SAE 5W-20.
All 2001-2002 vehicles other than those listed in the "Exception 2001 Vehicles" or "Exception 2002 Vehicles" chart are being filled with SAE 5W-20 motor oil at the factory and should also be serviced with SAE 5W-20 oil.
NOTE: THE "EXCEPTION 2001-2002 VEHICLES" SHOULD BE SERVICED WITH SAE 5W-30 MOTOR OIL.
Exception 2001 Vehicles
Engine Vehicle
3.3L Villager
3.9L Lincoln LS
4.0L Ranger, Explorer/Mountaineer, Explorer Sport, and Explorer Sport Trac
Exception 2002 Vehicles
Engine Vehicle
2.0L HP Zetec SVT Focus
3.3L Villager
4.0L Ranger, Explorer/Mountaineer, Explorer Sport, and Explorer Sport Trac
NOTE: IF VEHICLE IS NOT LISTED IN THIS APPLICATION, SAE 5W-30 OIL IS RECOMMENDED. REFER TO TSB 99-8-16.
No cult here my friend. While it does indicate the reason for some of the cars to use 5w-20, it doesn't indicate that the oil would or could do any damage, or cause added wear to the engine. I remember when people freaked out about 10w-30 replacing 10w-40 for some of the same reasons. Funny, but cars just seem to keep lasting longer and the recommended viscosity seems to keep getting lower. Coincidence? Just an observation.
Ford specifically listed some vehicles that should not use 5W-20, and noted that people needed to verify that their vehicles were on the approved list before using it. If 5W-20 offered the same wear protection as 5W-30 there would be no reason to exclude vehicles from using it.
Who said it doesn't offer the same wear protection? Different engines, because of design, require different oils and viscosity. I believe the new Ford Mustang GT (300hp) requires the 5w-20 oil. Is this because Ford wants the new Mustang (new model, millions invested) to wear out prematurely?
Among all us oil geeks, I don't think there is much problem using a 5w-20 or a 10w-30 because most of us use a good quality oil, filter and change it. And we have a good idea of what to do if we live where it gets really cold. That last part is the key, 'change it'. I think all these details become a bit more important when the owner misses an oil changes. Do you think 5w-20 is a candidate for the same interval as a 10w-30 in the hands of an owner that would accidently extend that interval through inattention.
I'd only run a petroleum based 5w-20 for temps below about 40F for easier cold starting and better performance ...for higher temps, I'd go with 5w-30 or even 10w-30 in these Ford/Honda applications. This will cost you a small amount in fuel efficiency, but bearing and ring/cylinder wear will be reduced. This is particularly true once the bearing and ring/cylinder clearances open up due to normal wear.
If you decide to run a PAO/Ester based synthetic like Mobil 1, I'd probably simplify things and use an SAE 0w-30 year round. But again, I'd prefer the 30wt to the 20wt....
TS
If you decide to run a PAO/Ester based synthetic like Mobil 1, I'd probably simplify things and use an SAE 0w-30 year round. But again, I'd prefer the 30wt to the 20wt....
TS
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=518&relatedbookgroup=Maintenance
To determine if SAE 5W-20 oils provide the same level of protection as SAE 5W-30 oils, Dagenham Motors in England, one of the largest Ford dealers in Europe, was consulted. SAE 5W-30 is required for warranty purposes in England, and SAE 5W-20 is not even available. If SAE 5W-20 were better for both fuel economy and wear, why would Ford not recommend it for its same engines in Europe?
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32270
..only the North American RX-8 manual specifies 5W20. The official Mazda requirement for everywhere outside of North America is 5W30, as specified in their owners manuals (scans have been posted many times). There was an official Mazda e-mail about this (in response to a question that one forum member sent in) that stated that 5W20 was used in NA to aid their Corporate Average Fuel Economy rating. That same e-mail stated that we could use 5W30 without any problem, including no impact to warranty.
Here's a test based on a portion of Ford's TSB:
"Article No.02-1-9...ACTION: All 2001 and 2002 vehicles where SAE 5W-20 is specified should be serviced at the recommended oil change intervals using SAE 5W-20. This oil is an improved formulation to improve fuel economy. Testing has validated this viscosity grade can be used in many previous model year vehicles. It is recommended ALL vehicles on the following Vehicle Application Listing be service with SAE 5W-20. "
Which of the following best answer why Ford is specifying 5W-20:
a. Ford is specifying 5W-20 to improve engine life.
b. Ford is specifying 5W-20 to improve fuel economy.
Bonus Point:
True or False: Ford is specifying 5W-20 to be used in all countries.
(If you answered 'a' please re-read the protion of Ford's TSB. The statement has been read many times and has even been read backwards by holding it in front of a mirror, but to date it does not appear that 'a' is correct).
To determine if SAE 5W-20 oils provide the same level of protection as SAE 5W-30 oils, Dagenham Motors in England, one of the largest Ford dealers in Europe, was consulted. SAE 5W-30 is required for warranty purposes in England, and SAE 5W-20 is not even available. If SAE 5W-20 were better for both fuel economy and wear, why would Ford not recommend it for its same engines in Europe?
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32270
..only the North American RX-8 manual specifies 5W20. The official Mazda requirement for everywhere outside of North America is 5W30, as specified in their owners manuals (scans have been posted many times). There was an official Mazda e-mail about this (in response to a question that one forum member sent in) that stated that 5W20 was used in NA to aid their Corporate Average Fuel Economy rating. That same e-mail stated that we could use 5W30 without any problem, including no impact to warranty.
Here's a test based on a portion of Ford's TSB:
"Article No.02-1-9...ACTION: All 2001 and 2002 vehicles where SAE 5W-20 is specified should be serviced at the recommended oil change intervals using SAE 5W-20. This oil is an improved formulation to improve fuel economy. Testing has validated this viscosity grade can be used in many previous model year vehicles. It is recommended ALL vehicles on the following Vehicle Application Listing be service with SAE 5W-20. "
Which of the following best answer why Ford is specifying 5W-20:
a. Ford is specifying 5W-20 to improve engine life.
b. Ford is specifying 5W-20 to improve fuel economy.
Bonus Point:
True or False: Ford is specifying 5W-20 to be used in all countries.
(If you answered 'a' please re-read the protion of Ford's TSB. The statement has been read many times and has even been read backwards by holding it in front of a mirror, but to date it does not appear that 'a' is correct).
1sttruck,
Wow, good info that appears to be backed up with factual data. Are you a lawyer?
You've really got me wondering now. Good gosh, I may just switch back to 5w-30! Anything that may cause my vehicle to possibly wear out before I'm done with it, would really tick me off.
Just don't tell me to use 10w-40 next, ok?
Wow, good info that appears to be backed up with factual data. Are you a lawyer?
You've really got me wondering now. Good gosh, I may just switch back to 5w-30! Anything that may cause my vehicle to possibly wear out before I'm done with it, would really tick me off.
Just don't tell me to use 10w-40 next, ok?
That's a great point and a great post. The answer to the question is that European (okay, non-North American) usage and even vehicle fleets are generally quite different than they are here. How many full-size American pickups and SUVs were sold in England in the past decade? Fewer than were sold in California last year?
There is a very interesting article (in German) from Daimler-Chrysler here.
Read the part about different vehicle usage and the part about reduced-tension oil control rings allowing the use of 5W20 oil.
The thing is that just because you're looking for better fuel economy doesn't automatically mean you're giving up durability. That's an assumption not necessarily founded in fact. The conspiracy to make us pay more in the end just isn't there.
Who was one of the first companies to specify 5W20?
A) Honda
B) Honda
C) Honda
Do they care about CAFE? Not particularly. Not like the Big 3 anyway. Honda doesn't sell anything that doesn't meet or exceed the standard (maybe their "pickup" doesn't; it's too ugly for me to look at long enough to know).
Who makes some of the most durable engines available in this country?
A) Honda
B) Honda
C) Honda
So, if I wanted to jump to conclusions not based in fact, I could jump to the conclusion that 5W20 oil makes engines last longer just as easily as someone else could jump to the conclusion that it makes them last less long and is part of a big conspiracy.
OTOH, I guess that just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
Regards,
--Eoin
Honda seems to do the same as Ford, recommending 5w20 for the US and heavier oils elsewhere. I couldn't find a Honda site in Europe with a similar listing, but a few comments by people over there noted that 10W30 and even 40 weight oils were being used.
Another item that someone pointed out is that even Ford's semisynthetic 5w20 isn't a suitable replacement for all vehicles that were previously using a dino 5w30.
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/parts/index.htm
Honda FEO (SAE 10W-30 API SJ) is a Genuine Honda Engine Oil that has been specifically formulated by Honda Motor Company for use in all Honda high performance engines (including VTEC and i-VTEC). The inherent properties of Honda FEO will ensure maximum protection for your engine whilst maintaining peak performance and fuel economy.
Another item that someone pointed out is that even Ford's semisynthetic 5w20 isn't a suitable replacement for all vehicles that were previously using a dino 5w30.
http://www.honda.com.au/buying+a+honda/parts/index.htm
Honda FEO (SAE 10W-30 API SJ) is a Genuine Honda Engine Oil that has been specifically formulated by Honda Motor Company for use in all Honda high performance engines (including VTEC and i-VTEC). The inherent properties of Honda FEO will ensure maximum protection for your engine whilst maintaining peak performance and fuel economy.
Precisely; they're addressing the market's requirements. As I said, the vehicle fleet and the usage of the vehicles in the fleet is totally different in North America than it is essentially everywhere else in the world.
Just as a manufacturer will specify a different oil in arctic usage than they will in tropical usage, so they will specify different oils in North American usage than in European usage. That doesn't make it a conspiracy, that makes it addressing the usage and needs of the market.
I've used 5w30, 10w30 and 0w30 all Amsoil in my warmer climate with a 3.0 Ranger with specs call for a 5w20. No problem in my driving condition. I do like the 0w30 as it gives good MPG and the wear control is there. Also engines runs a bit cooler.
Never suggested any conspiracy, in fact to me it's obvious why Ford, Honda and others are using 5W-20 as they've said so. If there's any 'conspiracy' it seems to be on the part of some 5W-20 advocates who don't want to acknowledge why it's being used. Ford seems to be using it as kind of a desperate measure as they're up against the wall on fleet mileage. Honda seems to just be trying to be a good corporate citizen. I think it's a good thing that methods of increasing fuel mileage are being explored and used, even though the benefits of this one are small compared to others that are available.
Today, M1 10w-30 SL is now taken up residence in the crankcase of my 04 Vue/3.5L Honda V6 that calls for 5w-20. I'm sure 10w-30 will provide excellent protection for the length of the drain...
I just traded a 89 Dodge Dakota with 247,000
miles. Ran great, all I ever used was Havoline
10w-40. All my vehicles get the same treatment.
1995 Ford Aerostar 187,000 miles runs great, 1985
Dodge Ramcharger 4by4 199,000 miles, all 10w-40.
All changed at 4000 miles. Bought a 2004 Dodge
Dakota last September, all it will get is Havoline
10w-40. Oh I have a 1996 Acura integra It gets
Mobile 1 at 8000 Miles.
miles. Ran great, all I ever used was Havoline
10w-40. All my vehicles get the same treatment.
1995 Ford Aerostar 187,000 miles runs great, 1985
Dodge Ramcharger 4by4 199,000 miles, all 10w-40.
All changed at 4000 miles. Bought a 2004 Dodge
Dakota last September, all it will get is Havoline
10w-40. Oh I have a 1996 Acura integra It gets
Mobile 1 at 8000 Miles.
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