Do you have any citations? Which engines in specific? Just asking to get more information, not to argue.
0w-8 has gone mainstream. M1 AFE 0w-8.
- Thread starter JavierH19
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Honda has been shipping engines with 0W-20 since 2004-2007. Not sure if they’re shipping with 0W-16/8 now.
There’s 0W-8 in the parent’s Camry now. It says 0W-16 can be used in the usual Toyota wording to work around CAFE but I’ll use 0W-20 out of warranty, 5W-30 if it’s still being used for gig work n
Gen 3 Prius is the best known but the 1.8 in “other” toyos is the same
just off the top of my head
Having been in the various Toyota forums for most of my life (back then forums were on USENET), the problems with oil burning starting around 2012 are NOT from lack of oil changes. Perfectly maintained engines are carbonizing the oil rings. Mainstream accepted theory is oil drain holes on the pistons being too small. But we don't really know.
Toyota engines in the 1970s ran over 200,000 miles in perfect condition, burning zero oil, on dino oil. I had several of them. Toyota has known for fifty years how to make a perfect ICE. What changed?
Something weird is going on, and the big change has been the oil.
I think it is too thin oil causing the rings to get too hot and carbonizing the oil, maybe in combination with the lack of zinc. My most recent change I went to 15w40 diesel synthetic with lots of zinc. The lack of zinc is TRASHING flat tappets and camshafts. Quickly! I may even go back to dino oil. Something is very, very wrong in the past few years.
We shall see.
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It’s not just the latest engines - but the 1ZZ-FE and to a point the 7A-FE in the Corolla were burning oil, they also had small oil return holes and coked up oil. The Prius is also prone to this.
I wonder if oil chemistry, especially VII choice has something to do with this. The Japanese are fond of star polymer(MMA) VIIs, so is HPL. Olefin VIIs are common in mass-market oils.
Do these engines employ under piston oil squirters?
I don't know.
Doesn't anyone else think it's weird, that 10 years ago it was normal to expect, or at least hope, that a good, well maintained engine, might go 400,000+ miles, but now ALL the major manufactures are having engines with major problems at 150,000... sometimes 80,000 or even 40,000 miles... cam phasers, cam gears, oil burning, camshaft wear, worn cylinder bores and piston skirts... Even on the exact same engines that used to run effectively forever.
...but no one is questioning: "HEY, MAYBE THIS EPA GOVERNMENT 'OIL' THAT IS THIN AS WATER AND WITH ALL THE GREAT ADDITIVES REMOVED ISN'T WORKING OUT LIKE WE HOPED?!?!?!"
Well I think it's weird.
I think the modern oil we are getting, especially in the US, may be a huge problem. I wish I could get my hands on some of the oil from 15 years ago in 30 and 40 weight, I would run it in everything.
Porsche just increased the viscosity recommendations on many of their older cars. They know something.
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Well Toyota engines were prone to sludging up over 20 yrs ago so there is some history. My guess is that it's a combination of market demand for ever larger vehicles which necessitates an increase in power density (hp/liter) while simultaneously improving emissions/fuel efficiency. @Foxtrot08 and others may have some inside knowledge about this but I would not be surprised if automakers go to great lengths to engineer their engines which can use lubricant that does not cost too much while meeting FE/CAFE goals. Toyota owners who are used to buying the cheapest 5w30 would balk at having to spend an additional 50% or more on a PAO blend.
On a side note there was an article last year about how the then new Dexos specification was causing excessive wear. The article suggested that the reason for the excessive wear was because the Gr3 base oils used to meet the specification were behaving too much like PAO but the oils weren't blended as such.
No real insider information. I mean it’s pretty straight forward. The GM 3.1L v6 was one of the most produced engines from 1980 till like 1999, right?
It has like 215hp. Out of 3.1L.
We are now pushing 455hp out of a 3.0L from the factory. With better fuel economy in most applications. For $50,000 you can have a brand new Mustang that puts out 810hp out of a 5.0L with a super charger and warranty.
So tolerances are tighter. Metallurgical standards are much higher. Everything is arguably more “complicated” in a way as well. But in return, you get basically “more.” So risk vs reward there.
As for cost - yes. Oil cost is definitely part of it. Total cost of ownership drives things more than even cafe standards / emission standards, for your “every day” car. They want cars to be as inexpensive to run as possible. Using an AN/ester/PAO blend is a nonstarter for that right away. Theres not enough of those products on the market, as is, for the forthcoming industrial needs. Let alone having a huge growth of hundreds of millions of gallons in the PCEO world.
It would take a decade to spin up more production and get it all certified. And no one has that planned right now as far as I know. So group III’s are the way of the future for now. Hydrotreating technology has driven group III costs down and made them easier to make. This is also allowing group II’s and blends to be better than they were. Thus we are seeing a re-emergence of Syn blend D1G3 products.
As for 0w8 - it’s just a different application. If you can keep the oil cool, it’s going to be thicker. It’s an engineering change over all. But is the juice worth the squeezing? The GM engineer I talked to said no. But that’s there perspective on engines. The margin of error when you’re going down that low changes. Is your tooling exactly right? Is the $40 an hour person assembling the engine exactly right? Is the metal finish perfect? Are any coatings done on parts perfect?
There’s a lot that can go wrong, for a tiny bit of gain. See the first part of this post.
The technology is there - just, is it worth the cost? Let alone the cost of oil and such.
99% of the time, that 810HP mustang is going to be using 35hp to crawl along the road, along with everyone else. So it is using 4% of it's capability, essentially all the time. At that level of stress on the engine, compared to what it is designed to do, the engine should last until the heat death of the universe. But it will not. Look it up. Those motors are disintegrating. The Demon motors are disintegrating too, and the owners swear up and down they were driving conservatively. The most reasonable explanation, is that modern "engine oil" is not good oil any more. I feel like the same people saying today's oil is fine, are the same entities saying there is no such thing as planned obsolescence. There are many articles on the web saying planned obsolescence doesn't exist. Never existed. All a myth, the articles say. Who is writing them. There is your answer.
500,000 mile motors were common just 15 years ago. Now they are not any more. New engines are falling apart at 100,000 miles, or less, FROM THE SAME MANUFACTURERS. The technology for a forever engine existed, but now is lost? Why?
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OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
"Demon motors are disintegrating too", got a source for that? This is an extremely limited production car and the Hellcat engines have been pretty bloody reliable overall. There's the odd one that experienced lifter failure, which also happened with the 6.4L and 5.7L, but that's a materials quality issue for the lifters and cam cores, not a problem with the oil or engine design.
Where are all the Gen 4 coyotes coming apart at? Please cite, I’m curious because, if you look at my avatar, I literally own one.
To the second part of your comment, you do realize there’s a lot more than oil going into making an engine reliable, right?
As I mentioned. It could be metallurgical changes. It could be changes in cooling capacity. It could be changing how they’re machined and built. It could be changes in their assembly and finishing process.
I will give you, there’s been a lot of post Covid issues with cars. Why? Mostly a lot of QC things that are missed by the manufacturer. I was shipped a $250,000 truck that the rear axle housing was literally cracked, last year, from Kenworth.
Of course, using your words - nothing I say matters since I’m the guy selling oil. So I’ll just put that out there, that you clearly don’t trust anything I have to say. But, I will also say as someone that owns approximately 300 vehicles, they’ve become more reliable and less costly to run - inflation adjusted. The exception to this statement is diesel emission systems. Which, is not this topic in the slightest.
Theres a lot of reasons why one can view vehicles as “less” reliable now - a lot more can go wrong. Theres also, substantially more vehicles on the road in 2024. Almost 80 million more vehicles are on the road in 2024, then in 1994. 30 years. There are more complicated systems involved in these vehicles, as I’ve stated.
But I will strongly disagree that an “average” passenger car would reach 500,000 miles regularly, 30 years ago. Possible? Sure. It’s also possible today with certain models. But the days of simplistic EFi engines are gone. If you think they’re less reliable, well, you’re never going to believe what I state anyways.
Seems like fake news twisted for clicks.
Looks like the Demon 170's have some major problems !!!
www.hellcat.org
How many factory 1025hp cars existed 30 years ago?
I searched around last night and found some other posts and videos. There’s nothing super conclusive, but at least 4 or 5 of these cars lost engines very early on.
All of them were being raced, all of them on E85 fuel. One of them admitted to never changing the oil from the factory (7000 miles, drag raced heavily.)
I don’t doubt the claim that *some* of these could come apart. But saying it’s conclusive and the oils fault, it is not. One poster said it was a bearing cap being out of spec. Another poster said that while tracked, these engines have oil starvation issues - meaning the sump is under sized for the engine design. Again, not an oil issue, when there is literally not enough room for oil.
Add in being drag raced / track raced. Yeah, I think having a factory 1025hp car is wild.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Did you read the comments in that thread? It's clickbait nonsense based on a sample size of one. Hardly the "Demon motors are disintegrating" fear porn you are pushing here.Looks like the Demon 170's have some major problems !!!
There may be some oil/engine combos where legitimate issues potentially exist, but this isn't one of them. Also, keep in mind, this engine spec's a 40-grade oil and makes 165HP/L.
Actually they have been shipping and using lighter than 0w16 oil for over a decade
————////////////—————-/-
Viscosity at 100c / 40c:
Mobile One 0w20 - 8.7 / 44.8
Ravenol 0w16 - 7.2 / 38.4
Honda Green Oil - 8.2 / 32.1
Honda NEXT oil - 5.1 / 20.8 (Blackstone Analysis)
Ravenol 0w16 is ~17% thinner than Mobile One 0w20 when hot, and 14% thinner when cold.
Green Oil appears to be roughly a thin 20 weight when hot but a good bit thinner for cold starts. There's no naming convention for oils thinner than zero-weight, so I'm not sure what you'd call it.
NEXT oil is ~30% thinner than Ravenol 0w16 when hot and ~45% thinner when cold, which certainly doesn't look like 0w16 to me.
———————
The question is how do the 0w8’s hold up to Hondas NEXT oil that was stock fill around 2016-2018 having a lower than ZERO weight winter rating
I remember being shocked when shopping brand new 1998 Honda Accords, when I saw the oil cap with “5w-20” printed on it. So it goes even further back. My 1.5L ‘88 Civic called for 5w-30, so I surmise that they started the switch during those intervening ten years.
It’s interesting that this thread has stretched on into six pages, and nobody has noticed that Eneos introduced 0w-8 oil in Japan back in 2014, a full ten years ago. Looks like another case of a “thin oil” debacle that has never quite materialized. I mean, shoot, yes there’s a large ocean between us and them, but we’ve had this internet thing for some time. I’m pretty sure if engines were prematurely melting down over there because of this accursed thin oil, we’d have heard something about it by now.
It's not until it happens in our back yard is when we say "not in my back yard"
Besides in japan the amount of miles driven on average is low and most don't own their car for too long because of their old car tax and the really high inspection costs making it more sensible to replace cars more frequently so nothing wears out drivetrain wise with those really thin oils.
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