0W-20: Which one from among these three choices:

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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Hey, while you mentioned the Toyota Brand 0W-20 you didn't include it in the list.
But the biggest oversight was the best 0W-20 on the planet,
Fuchs Titan GT-1 0W-20;

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1978784/


There's no question the Fuchs 0W20 looks like an awesome oil, but it's unobtanium in the US as far as I know (and maybe N. America?).

The one thing I don't understand is why someone would choose the M1 over XOM's Toyota-branded oil. It's typically cheaper and the specs seem better. It's recommended for factory 10K OCI's and seems to have a robust additive pack, high VI, and generally under $6.00/qt. What's not to like?
 
Originally Posted By: Drew2000
Originally Posted By: btanchors
All,

.... The manual recommends either 0W-20 or 5W-20, with a preference for 0W-20 for improved fuel economy. Since the vehicle is obviously under warranty, I intend to stick pretty close to manufacturer's recommendations. I have therefore settled on using 0W-20.....


Dude, you buy a 13mpg city/17mpg highway V8 p/u and think there will be a noticeable mpg difference because of the engine oil? It doesn't matter and won't make a difference. (maybe on a Corolla) Buy what's on sale.
The answer is Yes,the oil weight,or type,can make a noticeable difference in mpg.
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Hey, while you mentioned the Toyota Brand 0W-20 you didn't include it in the list.
But the biggest oversight was the best 0W-20 on the planet,
Fuchs Titan GT-1 0W-20;

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1978784/


There's no question the Fuchs 0W20 looks like an awesome oil, but it's unobtanium in the US as far as I know (and maybe N. America?).

The one thing I don't understand is why someone would choose the M1 over XOM's Toyota-branded oil. It's typically cheaper and the specs seem better. It's recommended for factory 10K OCI's and seems to have a robust additive pack, high VI, and generally under $6.00/qt. What's not to like?


Amazon.com has the Fuchs 0W20 oil listed for $102.95 for a 4 liter jug. I'm not sure if you can complete the transaction or not I didn't go any further than look for price.
 
JOD -

There is one concern I have using Toyota branded (or any other OEM) oil.

OEM branded oils, as I understand it, are outsourced to the companies that actually produce the oil (like Exxon Mobil, for instance). Presumably, it's contracted out to the lowest bidder. That doesn't make the oil bad. What concerns me is you never know when they might be switching suppliers. Further, given the fact that suppliers may be switched without notice, how do you know the specs you are looking at actually match up to what's in the bottle. They could be the specs corresponding to the previous supplier, not the current one.

Anyone else have this concern? Am I just OCD?
 
Usually, when there is a supplier change (as has already happened with the Toyota 0W20), there is a new bottle (shape, colour and label), so that should be a heads up that a new supplier is involved. So whatever is on the label, should correspond to what's in the bottle (i.e if the supplier changes, they are not going to use the bottles that the previous supplier was using).

Also, this being BITOG, there will likely be all sorts of posts and VOAs / UOAs once a supply change has happened, so you can decide if the oil is worthy of your engine.

However, regardless of the supplier, they will have to meet whatever specs Toyota is demanding, not the other way around.
 
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Originally Posted By: btanchors
JOD -

There is one concern I have using Toyota branded (or any other OEM) oil.

OEM branded oils, as I understand it, are outsourced to the companies that actually produce the oil (like Exxon Mobil, for instance). Presumably, it's contracted out to the lowest bidder. That doesn't make the oil bad. What concerns me is you never know when they might be switching suppliers. Further, given the fact that suppliers may be switched without notice, how do you know the specs you are looking at actually match up to what's in the bottle.


I think there's a fundamental difference between a re-seller which re-brands oil (e.g. Supertech) and OEM oils. The OEM oils with which I'm familiar always change part numbers when the suppliers change. The Toyota 0W20 is a perfect example; it was first made by Nippon, then XOM. The part # and bottles are different. However, there are VOA's for each oil and they're strikingly similar in composition--similar enough that the differences are within the margin of error of the test. They're similar enough that I bought the last 3 Nippon 0W20 from a dealer for $3.00 a qt, and I'll have zero concerns about mixing them with the XOM 0W20.

So, that leaves me with the following thoughts:

-the part # will change if the oil has a new supplier

-the supplier(s) will meet the specifications (down to the specific additive pack) even if they do change

-branded oils are just as likely to have small changes in formulations based on base oil availability--"specifications subject to change" and all that.

So at least as far as Toyota and Honda oils, I really don't have any concerns about the origins of the oil.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Hey, while you mentioned the Toyota Brand 0W-20 you didn't include it in the list.
But the biggest oversight was the best 0W-20 on the planet,
Fuchs Titan GT-1 0W-20;

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/1978784/

21Rouge and I have been working with the Cdn Fuchs importer to bring in the latest version (XTL) of the Titan GT-1 0W-20 at a price of around $80/4L jug. That's about the same price it goes for in Europe and OZ. Anyone interested feel free to contact us.

There's no question the Fuchs 0W20 looks like an awesome oil, but it's unobtanium in the US as far as I know (and maybe N. America?).

The one thing I don't understand is why someone would choose the M1 over XOM's Toyota-branded oil. It's typically cheaper and the specs seem better. It's recommended for factory 10K OCI's and seems to have a robust additive pack, high VI, and generally under $6.00/qt. What's not to like?


Amazon.com has the Fuchs 0W20 oil listed for $102.95 for a 4 liter jug. I'm not sure if you can complete the transaction or not I didn't go any further than look for price.
 
21Rouge and I have been working with the Cdn Fuchs importer to bring in the latest version (XTL) of the Titan GT-1 0W-20 at a price od around $80/4l JUG. that's about the same price it goes for in Europe and`OZ. Anyone interested feel free to contact us.
 
Originally Posted By: JOD
CATERHAM said:
The one thing I don't understand is why someone would choose the M1 over XOM's Toyota-branded oil. It's typically cheaper and the specs seem better. It's recommended for factory 10K OCI's and seems to have a robust additive pack, high VI, and generally under $6.00/qt. What's not to like?

They are different oils and while I prefer the Toyota oil because it is lighter at all typical start-up temp's at all temp's above at least 0C, M1 0W-20 is PAO based and has the lowest MRV (at -40 degrees 10,400cP) of any oil I'm aware of vs 18,000cP for the Toyota Brand.
Also in theory M1 with it's lower VI is likely more shear resistant.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
21Rouge and I have been working with the Cdn Fuchs importer to bring in the latest version (XTL) of the Titan GT-1 0W-20 at a price od around $80/4l JUG. that's about the same price it goes for in Europe and`OZ. Anyone interested feel free to contact us.


OUCH! That's $20/litre! Is that Canadian dollars? What would that be in USD?
 
CATERHAM,

Can you discuss MRV and its significance? I see the rating on the Mobil 1 PDS, and I know it's related to viscosity, but need to gain an understanding...Can you elaborate?
 
Originally Posted By: btanchors
CATERHAM,

Can you discuss MRV and its significance? I see the rating on the Mobil 1 PDS, and I know it's related to viscosity, but need to gain an understanding...Can you elaborate?


While I'm not CATERHAM, I did use to live your part of the country so I'll answer: if it ever gets cold enough for MRV to be important to you, you'll be in a state of national emergency and won't be allowed to leave you house anyway...

Basically, it measures the oil's pumpability (which is a more realistic test than it's flow under its own pressure) at extremely cold temps--for a 0W20 oil the test is at -40C.

Keep in mind that MRV is non-linear, and 0W oils tend to become exponentially less pumpable at a certain point well under 0C, typically around -30C (this is based on a graph published by Honda on their 0W20 oils).

So, at any start-up temp you'll typically see the Toyota 0W20 oil will be more easily pumped.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
OUCH! That's $20/litre! Is that Canadian dollars? What would that be in USD?


Well right now $20 CDN is basically $20 US.
 
EDIT: Never mind the below, I see you don't have Edge available. Go with the M1.

I wouldn't use the Amsoil or Red Line b/c of warranty issues. But if I were you I'd look into Castrol Edge 0w20. Edge is seriously underrated here at BitoG and I've seen firsthand just how smooth and quiet this oil is in comparison.

So it would be M1 0w20 or Edge 0w20. Both are great oils but between the two I'd go for the Edge myself. Try to catch it on sale at O'Reilly's with the M1-EP filter for $30. But I wouldn't hesitate to use the M1 either.
 
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

... Also in theory M1 with it's lower VI is likely more shear resistant.

I have a silly question. I thought having a high VI was good? I was thinking it was the VII that sheared (?). To be honest, I never really understood VI anyhow, so if anyone could shed some light on it in relation to VII's I'd greatly appreciate it. From what I've gathered, a high VI allows an oil to be thin when cold and thick when hot for the best protection both on startup and under load.

The thing is, data sheets will show the VI but not the amount of VII's, or their quality. Red Line is a good example where I get confused. It has a good VI on it's 5w30 but is said it doesn't use VII's at all. So many say it's shear proof. So I guess I'm just in the dark on how one can apply all of this on an oil to get an idea of what will happen. In a case of high end oils not using VII's, one would want a higher VI, right? I guess that's where I get lost. lol
 
From http://api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/MOTOR_OIL_GUIDE_2010_120210.pdf

"GASOLINE ENGINES(FOLLOW YOUR VEHICLE MANUFACTURER’S RECOMMENDATIONS ON OIL PERFORMANCE LEVEL)
CATEGORY STATUS SERVICE
SN CURRENT Introduced in October 2010 for 2011 and older vehicles, designed to provide improved high temperature
deposit protection for pistons, more stringent sludge control, and seal compatibility. API SN with Resource
Conserving matches ILSAC GF-5 by combining API SN performance with improved fuel economy, turbocharger
protection, emission control system compatibility, and protection of engines operating on ethanol-containing
fuels up to E85.
SM CURRENT For 2010 and older automotive engines.
SL CURRENT For 2004 and older automotive engines.
SJ CURRENT For 2001 and older automotive engines. "

So it looks like the best API category for a 2011 vehicle would be API SN. Mobil 1 and Red Line don't have a Certified API SN, but AMSOIL offers 2 Certified API SN 5w-20. The OE is $3.99 a quart, wholesale case of 12 quarts. The XL is $5.06 a quart, wholesale case of 12 quarts. Both are warranted by AMSOIL for parts and labor for the OEM change interval.
 
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Viscosity Index is a direct mathematical function of the KV40 and KV 100 numbers. The larger the difference between KV40 and KV100, the larger the VI. If you start with a low VI base stock, Viscosity Index Improver polymer can be added to get a larger difference between KV40 and KV100, thereby increasing the viscosity index. Typically, VII is added to a low-viscosity base stock to increase the KV40 number, then at high temperature the polymer chains in the VII uncoil, decreasing the KV100 number.

The trouble with VII's is when they are subjected to shear within a bearing (or between any two moving surfaces), their viscosity breaks down, yielding lower film thickness than if another oil of the same kinematic viscosities, but no VII content were used. This is a temporary loss of viscosity that only exists when the oil is in the bearing.

Another phenomenon that occurs with oil containing VII is that as it repeatedly runs through the engine, the polymer's chains get broken, resulting in a permanent viscosity loss. Depending on the magnitude, this can cause the oil to permanently shear down in grade.

This is where certain oils, like Redline 5w30 stand out: the POE base stocks have an inherently high VI without requiring VII's, so they are more resistant to shearing down in grade and have higher HTHS viscosities in relation to their kinematic viscosities.

How high of a Viscosity Index do you need? It depends on what you want the oil to do. If you want to run the same oil year round, and are driving between Key West and Anchorage, you would want an oil with high VI to get maximum protection over a wide range of temperatures. If you are running an alcohol sprint car during the summer only, you would want to run a straight-weight (low VI) oil to get maximum protection from shearing, and then dump the oil after every race.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Viscosity Index is a direct mathematical function of the KV40 and KV 100 numbers. The larger the difference between KV40 and KV100, the larger the VI. If you start with a low VI base stock, Viscosity Index Improver polymer can be added to get a larger difference between KV40 and KV100, thereby increasing the viscosity index. Typically, VII is added to a low-viscosity base stock to increase the KV40 number, then at high temperature the polymer chains in the VII uncoil, decreasing the KV100 number.



Oops. Hold the phone, everybody. I got it wrong. The above paragraph should have read:

The larger the difference between KV40 and KV100, the lower the VI. If you start with a low VI base stock, Viscosity Index Improver polymer can be added to get a smaller difference between KV40 and KV100, thereby increasing the viscosity index. Typically, VII is added to a low-viscosity base stock, leaving the KV40 number nearly unaffected, but expanding at high temperature, counteracting thinning of the base stock and increasing the KV100 number.
 
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