0W-20 vs. 5W-30 - General Motors Warranty Concern

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: dblshock

In one sentence @ 24sec. this Mobil gal lays one on CAFE.




After a second look this is laughable, was the engine under load? what was the ambient temp? was the wear actually measured? they seem to suguest a visual only conculsion...after the opening statement they clearly imply this is not optimal.


1) When XM test engines with the long term oil test the engines are placed under various loads and speeds.

2) The test are run outdoors under shelters. This facility is located in Maryland, so the test are performed in various temps.

3) Some items are visually checked, while others are measured, like valve clearance.

Recently I removed the valve cover on my Fusion with 195K at 10K OCIs with M1 0-20AFE. I checked the valve clearance and all were within factory spec. Also the engine was very clean. Here's a pic I took of my engine. Clean like the one in the video.

 

[dblshock]

nice, turbo? DI?

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Why would GM recommend a 0-20 if it "harms" your engine?



Or... Would GM recommend a 0-20 if it led to increased wear on your engine before and/or after the warranty period expired?

Sure they would. It depends on how one defines "harm." For all we know, "harm" implies getting less mpg. I'd like to know the GM engineers oil recommendations if there was no CAFE input and the only concern was maximizing engine life. We should have that choice as consumers to pass on the 0.1% increased MPG in order to get more life from the engine.

My 4.6L was originally designed in the early 1990's to run on 5w-30. Around 2000-2001 it was back specced for 5w-20. My 1997 DOHC 4v 4.6L ran on the recommended 5w-30 to 230K miles until a water pump failure occurred. I do recall reading a later article from a Ford engineer stating that running the back specced 5w-20 in the 2001 and later 4.6L's was foolish and literally harmful to the engine. Wish I could find that on line article again. I run my 2002 4.6L DOHC 4v on 5w-30 despite the back speccing.

(note 2002 is the same engine internally to the 1999 which was still specced on 5w-30 (The engine was revised for 1999 with new cylinder heads featuring tumble-style intake ports (one intake port feeding two intake valves), new camshaft profiles, and fixed runner-length intake manifolds. These changes resulted +15 hp, +10 lb-ft torque and a broader power-band when compared to the earlier 4-valve engines)

Early Bitog

 

[Nickdfresh]

Well thank God you saved your 4.6L! I mean, there are all those ones that only made it to 200,000 or 400,000 miles on that defective 5W-20!

I mean the junkyards are just filled with 90's and early 2000's Fords and Hondas. Aren't they?

BTW, 5W-30 is "not recommended for high speed driving" and you need to change your Model T every 500 miles, and various other baseless, factless ignorance spewed here...

These same circle jerk idiotic anecdotal arguments are just getting so old here...

If you don't like "thin oils." Fine, but the stupid tired lame arguments masquerading as fact are just ruining this place...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: dblshock
once the EPA is dismanteled it will be interesting to see what becomes of CAFE, 0/20 and the auto mfg's.

I used M1 5-20 in 1978 in engines calling for 10-40. CAFE wasn't around then.


Don't bother with facts or anything...

Or that this idiot would have been scared [censored] of 5W-30 in 1985...

Or that the carmakers calling for the thickest motor oils actually have the highest failure rates...

 

[WillB]

I would be more concerned with AFM/PCV system killing your engine, than 0W20. Add a catch can, what does the manual say?
0W20 is EPA CAFE driven.... Nothing more.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: dwendt44
Most other GM engines have been using 5W-30 for years, and little has changed inside the 5.3 other than adding the DI heads.



GM's redesign for the Ecotec 3 engines was way more extensive than just swapping in DI heads. The block was strengthened, the cam was redesigned because the exhaust and intake valve positions have been reversed, the head bolt diameters were enlarged, a fuel pump lobe was added to the camshaft, the intake manifold was redesigned to eliminate the port injectors, the pistons were redesigned to control charge motion for DI, piston cooling nozzles were added, the oil pump was made variable displacement, the head bolt pattern was changed, and the compression ratio was raised.



Just goes to show most posts here are way off base in saying "it's very similar" to the motors that used 5W/30.

Gotta love the "Saturday engineers" here on BITOG.

 

[Uregina09]

Honest question - why won't you jump on the 0W20 or 0W30 bandwagon? If it doesn't hurt anything and can potentially only help, why not? I run 0W30 in my F150 with the Ecoboost engine and 0W20 in my wife's new Toyota. I can't really see a reason not to.

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Yeah, that Mobil vid, right out of the gate my thought was "sure, it would last that long. It is only running in an controlled environment, with no appreciable load. Not having to deal with stop and go city traffic every day in every thing from temps well over 100F to sub zero stuff." Yet another slick marketing ad that kisses up to the CAFE stuff and assumes the general public are idiots. I know this fascination with 0wXX is neat, but I won't jump on board. Only if I lived in the Alaskan Interior. Even if a OEM spec'd a 0w20, and I wanted to stick close to their recommendation, I would probably use a 5w20. After all those years of watching my dad use straight 30w oils, only succumbing to 10w30 later in life, and all of his vehicles went well beyond 200,000 miles. And I don't ever recall, from my childhood in the 50's and 60's on up the when he passed away in 2003 that he ever had an engine failure in any vehicle. Even their Honda Odyssey went to 300,000 miles and still was in pretty good shape when my mom traded it off several years ago. That engine had never been opened up for a repair and still ran good.

 

[Monte32]

Well thank God you saved your 4.6L! I mean, there are all those ones that only made it to 200,000 or 400,000 miles on that defective 5W-20!

I mean the junkyards are just filled with 90's and early 2000's Fords and Hondas. Aren't they?

BTW, 5W-30 is "not recommended for high speed driving" and you need to change your Model T every 500 miles, and various other baseless, factless ignorance spewed here...

These same circle jerk idiotic anecdotal arguments are just getting so old here...

If you don't like "thin oils." Fine, but the stupid tired lame arguments masquerading as fact are just ruining this place... [/quote


First of all, you shouldn't let something like a discussion on oil grades get you so hot and bothered.

Second, this is a good discussion and I think everyone has points worth considering. Discussions like this can only yield positive results. Anything that arms you with more data/info in order to make a more informed decision is good in my book. I find it fascinating how some people are so emotionally invested in this topic. Personally, I'm glad to hear all comments and views here. I'm certainly not gonna berate someone for their view on one grade of oil vs another ]

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Oh, and Merk, you do follow the manual to the letter. When is the last time you put anything in your Buick aside from an ILSAC 10w-30?


I just so happened to pick a car with an owner's manual that reflected my viscosity beliefs.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Garak
Oh, and Merk, you do follow the manual to the letter. When is the last time you put anything in your Buick aside from an ILSAC 10w-30?


I just so happened to pick a car with an owner's manual that reflected my viscosity beliefs.

Merck drives a car that is over ten years old................

 

[zeng]

...... and the 'fact' remains Merk's car won't last another 10 years from now simply because OEM recommended a 'devilish thick' 10W30.
If only its OEM recommended a 0W20, it would last another 20 years from now, no?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: dblshock
once the EPA is dismanteled it will be interesting to see what becomes of CAFE, 0/20 and the auto mfg's.

I used M1 5-20 in 1978 in engines calling for 10-40. CAFE wasn't around then.


Don't bother with facts or anything...

Or that this idiot would have been scared [censored] of 5W-30 in 1985...

Or that the carmakers calling for the thickest motor oils actually have the highest failure rates...


I keep bringing up the fact that M1 5W20 was according to Mobil made without VII...it would therefore have been what redline is today, around 2.9HTHS.

And the fact was that 10W40 in the day was hopeless, and when they finally got HTHS into the system, the 10W40s got given a 2.9min...which supports Mobil offering the statement of same protection as a 10W40.

It's a fact that ILSAC grades have lower HTHS drivers than non ILSAC grades, and it's a fact why they do it.

But your last statement really has me intrigued as to your evidence for same. Could you offer the evidence of higher engine failure rates, and that it's lubricant (specifically thicker) related ???

 

[Merkava_4]

Nickdfresh has been skinny dipping in the Florida Everglades again and now there's a very large ShannowGator with razor sharp teeth closing in on his six.

 

[TiredTrucker]

When one looks past the average 1 pickup user to commercial fleets that run many of them with drivers who could really give a rip about maintenance and rack up some pretty significant miles in situations and conditions outside the normal single pickup owner, and do it while using something like a bulk 10w30 that they use for multiple vehicles in their fleet, that speaks a little better to the argument that there is no significant issue with using higher vis oils in engines that call for 20w. And I have yet to see a commercial operation doing this have their warranties denied.

 

[cmhj]

I'm out of popcorn, going out for more beer

 

[NH73]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
When one looks past the average 1 pickup user to commercial fleets that run many of them with drivers who could really give a rip about maintenance and rack up some pretty significant miles in situations and conditions outside the normal single pickup owner, and do it while using something like a bulk 10w30 that they use for multiple vehicles in their fleet, that speaks a little better to the argument that there is no significant issue with using higher vis oils in engines that call for 20w. And I have yet to see a commercial operation doing this have their warranties denied.
That is because auto dealers will bend over backwards for fleet operators, then they will for the average 1 pickup owner person. Fleet operators are there bread and butter. One mechanic told me that one fleet owner signed a agreement with a chevy dealer that they could use 15w40 on a 5w30 spec truck and a 150000 mile warranty. So just because this is what the fleet guys do, you could do it too is not a good argument. All a 1 person owner needs is warranty denied and would need to just suck it up or pay for legal service to sue and if the issue was oil related, will lose.

 

[Monte32]

Originally Posted By: NH73
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
When one looks past the average 1 pickup user to commercial fleets that run many of them with drivers who could really give a rip about maintenance and rack up some pretty significant miles in situations and conditions outside the normal single pickup owner, and do it while using something like a bulk 10w30 that they use for multiple vehicles in their fleet, that speaks a little better to the argument that there is no significant issue with using higher vis oils in engines that call for 20w. And I have yet to see a commercial operation doing this have their warranties denied.
That is because auto dealers will bend over backwards for fleet operators, then they will for the average 1 pickup owner person. Fleet operators are there bread and butter. One mechanic told me that one fleet owner signed a agreement with a chevy dealer that they could use 15w40 on a 5w30 spec truck and a 150000 mile warranty. So just because this is what the fleet guys do, you could do it too is not a good argument. All a 1 person owner needs is warranty denied and would need to just suck it up or pay for legal service to sue and if the issue was oil related, will lose.


I agree with tired trucker on this one. The politics don't matter as much as the results. Whether the auto dealers bend over backwards for the fleet operators is irrelevant. What I care more about is how many miles did those Silverados and F-150s rack up without incident while running a non-recommended grade?? Seems like it's already been almost universally established that the likelihood of having your warranty voided over an oil grade issue is extremely unlikely. So I'd just want to know what truly is the best oil to run.

 

[NH73]

Originally Posted By: Monte32
Originally Posted By: NH73
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
When one looks past the average 1 pickup user to commercial fleets that run many of them with drivers who could really give a rip about maintenance and rack up some pretty significant miles in situations and conditions outside the normal single pickup owner, and do it while using something like a bulk 10w30 that they use for multiple vehicles in their fleet, that speaks a little better to the argument that there is no significant issue with using higher vis oils in engines that call for 20w. And I have yet to see a commercial operation doing this have their warranties denied.
That is because auto dealers will bend over backwards for fleet operators, then they will for the average 1 pickup owner person. Fleet operators are there bread and butter. One mechanic told me that one fleet owner signed a agreement with a chevy dealer that they could use 15w40 on a 5w30 spec truck and a 150000 mile warranty. So just because this is what the fleet guys do, you could do it too is not a good argument. All a 1 person owner needs is warranty denied and would need to just suck it up or pay for legal service to sue and if the issue was oil related, will lose.


I agree with tired trucker on this one. The politics don't matter as much as the results. Whether the auto dealers bend over backwards for the fleet operators is irrelevant. What I care more about is how many miles did those Silverados and F-150s rack up without incident while running a non-recommended grade?? Seems like it's already been almost universally established that the likelihood of having your warranty voided over an oil grade issue is extremely unlikely. So I'd just want to know what truly is the best oil to run.
. Iam following this post to see what I can learn too. And its more confusing than anything. Overall, 5w30 dexos1 is decently close to 0w20 dexos1 in thickness that it probably won't do more damage. Because of that, I am not advocating to change your oil.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: Monte32
Originally Posted By: NH73
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
When one looks past the average 1 pickup user to commercial fleets that run many of them with drivers who could really give a rip about maintenance and rack up some pretty significant miles in situations and conditions outside the normal single pickup owner, and do it while using something like a bulk 10w30 that they use for multiple vehicles in their fleet, that speaks a little better to the argument that there is no significant issue with using higher vis oils in engines that call for 20w. And I have yet to see a commercial operation doing this have their warranties denied.
That is because auto dealers will bend over backwards for fleet operators, then they will for the average 1 pickup owner person. Fleet operators are there bread and butter. One mechanic told me that one fleet owner signed a agreement with a chevy dealer that they could use 15w40 on a 5w30 spec truck and a 150000 mile warranty. So just because this is what the fleet guys do, you could do it too is not a good argument. All a 1 person owner needs is warranty denied and would need to just suck it up or pay for legal service to sue and if the issue was oil related, will lose.


I agree with tired trucker on this one. The politics don't matter as much as the results. Whether the auto dealers bend over backwards for the fleet operators is irrelevant. What I care more about is how many miles did those Silverados and F-150s rack up without incident while running a non-recommended grade?? Seems like it's already been almost universally established that the likelihood of having your warranty voided over an oil grade issue is extremely unlikely. So I'd just want to know what truly is the best oil to run.



Yep-until it happens to you........