0/20 spec really?

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There may be good reason to deviate from the grade specified by the manufacturer, since a single grade for all purposes recommendation is obviously a compromise.
There was a time when every OM contained a temp/visc chart to guide in the selection of appropriate oil grade.
Cars as late as our '09 Forester had such a chart.
The warranty denial issue is nothing more than a straw man.
While the API spec met by an oil might be revealed in a UOA by the ZDDP levels, no UOA can tell you what the original SAE grade of a used oil was when new.
Now, a 20W-50 might be pretty obvious, but a 5w30 versus a 0W-20? Too close to call after any amount of time in service. Oil can and does both thin and thicken in service.
The whole purpose of this site is to exchange ideas and experience about what works and what doesn't work as well.
If you learn nothing else here, you should learn that oil grades thicker than recommended are commonly used with good results as are thinner grades more rarely.
Engines aren't nearly as sensitive to oil grade as some people seem to think.
 
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
Originally Posted By: SteveGG
I’m new to these forums and have read through most of this 13 page (whew!) thread. It all seems centered around the possibility, or even benefit, of using different viscosities from the recommended 0W-20, said recommendation being from the car / engine manufacturer. All of these variations are for increased viscosities (e.g. 5w30 or even higher). Some have claimed that their engines start, run and / or sound better, on the heavier oils. All subjective and nothing substantiated. I find it incredible, that anyone would knowingly and deliberately deviate from the clear recommendation ! Absolutely amazing !

The one and only reason 0W-20 is specced in modern cars sold in North America is fuel economy regulations,if it weren't for them they'd spec 0w30 or 5w30 , that is why there is so much debate.
Many cars sold in America spec 0W-20 , Meanwhile the same cars specify 30 or 40 Grades in other parts of the world.


Interestingly the Kia Picanto (old and new shape) are all specced for 5w20 by Kia.

But all Kia dealers I have spoken to use 5w30.

I have ran the 05 on 10w40 on a short (less than 2k) OCI as I was unsure when oil was last changed, the condition of the oil filter would make me think it was probably about a year ago but not documented. I have now put in 5w30 Castrol Magnatec A5/B5 which is SN. I intend to see if this high mileage engine consumes any oil over 2k miles or so (used no 10w40 whatsoever) and I shall be putting in 5w20. The only SL I can find are Redline and it's expensive so I am going to use Castrol Professional 5w20 as used in then Ford Ecoboost engines this is an API SL, ILSAC GL-3 and A5/B5 oil. Not cheap at £12 (when using discount code with EuroCarParts) a litre but I only need three litres.

I was considering using the same Castrol 5w20 in the 14 but it is only SL and the 14 specs SM as a minimum.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Of course, one could use a 5w20 in place of a 0w20 that an OEM specified with no issues unless you live in Fairbanks, Alaska in the winter. Lower NOACK and same vis at operating temps. Just a cold flow difference.

I really have little concern that I "toe the line" regarding what OEM's spec. I deviate to some degree usually. In roughly 45 years of both personal and commercial vehicle ownership, I have never seen or even heard first hand of an OEM or Dealership even questioning the oil being used let alone deny a warranty claim. Just internet folklore. I have had a few warranty issues over the years, most commercial vehicles, and the type or brand of oil wasn't even discussed. So to that end, I do not have an enlarged paranoia gland that causes me to only use exactly what an OEM specifies. They have their reasons for their recommendation, and only a portion of that reasoning has anything to do with engine performance and longevity. Remember, Gooberment has it's thumb on the scale.


The only time I actually heard about a confirmed problem with oil not being to the correct spec was with the Ford Zetec engines bavknin the 90's when they first hit the streets in the U.K.

If you didn't use A1/B1 it would cause the valves to stick and cause running problems.

I think it became an issue because Garages were used to servicing the old Sierra with the Pinto engines etc. So people would just use the same oil as those engines.

The only other issue that could be directly related to oil was at work when the fitters (allegedly) used the same oil in the diesel Zafiras as in the V8 LDV Convoys and LDV400's.

This lead to engine failures as the oil was not really up to the job in a DPF equipped Diesel engine. I believe the record for an engine blow up was under 3000 miles from new, the oil becoming like a black Vaseline in the sump.

Why they thought 15w40 Castrol FTX would work instead of a Full Synthetic oil who knows.
 
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
SteveGG said:
I’m new to these forums and have read through most of this 13 page (whew!) thread. It all seems centered around the possibility, or even benefit, of using different viscosities from the recommended 0W-20, said recommendation being from the car / engine manufacturer...


No. It's because modern oils have much better base oils enabling thinner oils to be used. The same people here that complain about Cafe are advocating oils that were "too thin" circa 1995 (i.e. 5w30), and were not "recommended for sustained high speed driving" in 90's guides. Just use SAE40 SA and go for 500 mile OCIs from the 1920s, like the mindset...
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Of course, one could use a 5w20 in place of a 0w20 that an OEM specified with no issues unless you live in Fairbanks, Alaska in the winter. Lower NOACK and same vis at operating temps. Just a cold flow difference.

I really have little concern that I "toe the line" regarding what OEM's spec. I deviate to some degree usually. In roughly 45 years of both personal and commercial vehicle ownership, I have never seen or even heard first hand of an OEM or Dealership even questioning the oil being used let alone deny a warranty claim. Just internet folklore. ...


No, it's not. My brother was a service writer whose dealership denied claims of a Florida police dept. after they used SAE40 in Crown Vics calling for 5W-20 causing the filters to leak due to high pressure...

It does happen. But then, I have yet to hear any problems using 0W-20 synthetic causing engines to grenade...
 
Cabbies around here run fun endurance rallies on otherwise good panthers that were taken off service due to age (e.g. Tri-Met contract stipulations, etc)
Cars on 20 weight don't last more than 2 hours. Granted, this is not your typical street use, but the myth of new stronger films doesn't stretch too far here.
 
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Cabbies around here run fun endurance rallies on otherwise good panthers that were taken off service due to age (e.g. Tri-Met contract stipulations, etc)
Cars on 20 weight don't last more than 2 hours. Granted, this is not your typical street use, but the myth of new stronger films doesn't stretch too far here.


Most NASCARs run 20W. Again, meaningless anecdotes that may well be made up...
 
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Of course, one could use a 5w20 in place of a 0w20 that an OEM specified with no issues unless you live in Fairbanks, Alaska in the winter. Lower NOACK and same vis at operating temps. Just a cold flow difference.

I really have little concern that I "toe the line" regarding what OEM's spec. I deviate to some degree usually. In roughly 45 years of both personal and commercial vehicle ownership, I have never seen or even heard first hand of an OEM or Dealership even questioning the oil being used let alone deny a warranty claim. Just internet folklore. ...


No, it's not. My brother was a service writer whose dealership denied claims of a Florida police dept. after they used SAE40 in Crown Vics calling for 5W-20 causing the filters to leak due to high pressure...

It does happen. But then, I have yet to hear any problems using 0W-20 synthetic causing engines to grenade...


Interesting that the topic rarely ever comes up with commercial users. Either in general conversation or industry related articles. Even the Technology and Maintenance Council, who is the de facto oversight committee for commercial fleet truck users, has barely addressed the following OEM grade recommendations. But the police dept you referenced seemed to be way outside the bounds of common sense, and probably didn't follow sound advice about not disclosing any more information that necessary. For the average user, again, I have never seen or even heard of it being an issue. With all my personal and commercial vehicles in 45 years, the right oil issue has never come up with any dealer or OEM.

And the 0w20 thing vs, say, a 5w20 is not going to cause any real issues or eyebrows to raise. Viscosity is the same at operating temps. Sure, maybe dropping in a 40w is not the ideal, but most average folks are not going to do that. Maybe a 30w. But some Gooberment entity that is only interested in one size fits all stuff for everything from their cars to their road maintainers, they deserve what they get.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Of course, one could use a 5w20 in place of a 0w20 that an OEM specified with no issues unless you live in Fairbanks, Alaska in the winter. Lower NOACK and same vis at operating temps. Just a cold flow difference.

I really have little concern that I "toe the line" regarding what OEM's spec. I deviate to some degree usually. In roughly 45 years of both personal and commercial vehicle ownership, I have never seen or even heard first hand of an OEM or Dealership even questioning the oil being used let alone deny a warranty claim. Just internet folklore. ...


No, it's not. My brother was a service writer whose dealership denied claims of a Florida police dept. after they used SAE40 in Crown Vics calling for 5W-20 causing the filters to leak due to high pressure...

It does happen. But then, I have yet to hear any problems using 0W-20 synthetic causing engines to grenade...


Interesting that the topic rarely ever comes up with commercial users. Either in general conversation or industry related articles. Even the Technology and Maintenance Council, who is the de facto oversight committee for commercial fleet truck users, has barely addressed the following OEM grade recommendations. But the police dept you referenced seemed to be way outside the bounds of common sense, and probably didn't follow sound advice about not disclosing any more information that necessary. For the average user, again, I have never seen or even heard of it being an issue. With all my personal and commercial vehicles in 45 years, the right oil issue has never come up with any dealer or OEM.


Most haven't seen major issues because the truth is that in the vast majority of multi-weight oil applications it doesn't make a great deal of difference what the weight is within reason. Some have stated here that certain Fords like a Focus or an Escort would have problems running heavier oils but I think even some on the "thin oil" crowd debunked this.

At the same time, yes my example is a bit on the extreme end of the spectrum, but I've seen some here bent on running straight weight oils on modern engines because that;s what they've done since 1946. Albeit it's becoming less common than when I started....

Quote:
And the 0w20 thing vs, say, a 5w20 is not going to cause any real issues or eyebrows to raise. Viscosity is the same at operating temps. Sure, maybe dropping in a 40w is not the ideal, but most average folks are not going to do that. Maybe a 30w. But some Gooberment entity that is only interested in one size fits all stuff for everything from their cars to their road maintainers, they deserve what they get.


I'm just attempting to offer perspective. When the first 5W-20's were released, my understanding was that there were real problems with the use of Group I base oils and any not called "Mobil 1" were quickly withdrawn from market. It's pretty much certain that to be a 5W-20 "conventional" a blender usually has to be using a "syn-blend" of Group II & III. And as stated, the original 5w30 was only supposed to be used on winter and not too much on the highway at that...
 
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Most NASCARs run 20W. Again, meaningless anecdotes that may well be made up...

It's not what's added to the mythology, it's what is excluded is interesting in this case: 16 qt sumps with electric preheat. And those engines are kinda sorta different, in a delicate way, of course.
 
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Most NASCARs run 20W. Again, meaningless anecdotes that may well be made up...

It's not what's added to the mythology, it's what is excluded is interesting in this case: 16 qt sumps with electric preheat. And those engines are kinda sorta different, in a delicate way, of course.


Sure, post the junk yards filled with prematurely grenaded Fords and Hondas! No one else has, speaking of mythology...
 
No, I report only what I have witnessed myself. On the local track and a NASCAR pit.
Emotional moves are the losing ones.
 
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Cabbies around here run fun endurance rallies on otherwise good panthers that were taken off service due to age (e.g. Tri-Met contract stipulations, etc)
Cars on 20 weight don't last more than 2 hours. Granted, this is not your typical street use, but the myth of new stronger films doesn't stretch too far here.


Most NASCARs run 20W. Again, meaningless anecdotes that may well be made up...


Nascar 20W is not ordinary motor oil...just saying.
 
Originally Posted By: BigD1

Nascar 20W is not ordinary motor oil...just saying.

Yep I agree.

Here is another 0W20 oil that isn't your typical ILSAC spec oil

Penrite 10-Tenths Racing 0W-20
100% PAO & Ester - fully Shear Free
API SL & MB 229.1
Zinc = 1760 ppm
Boron = 630 ppm
Moly = 100 ppm
Ca = 2960 ppm
TBN = 9.8

[Penrite Racing 0W20 Link]

Even I would run this stuff in a Honda Civic

penrite-10-tenths-racing-0-0w-20-5l.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: SteveGG
You make several claims with nothing to back them up. The fuel savings for 0W-20 has been shown to be only 1.5%. Are you really saying that Honda would specify the wrong oil for that ?! Clearly there's less friction with 0W-20, so why isn't that better ? Where else in the world does Honda recommend a heavier oil for this exact same car ?


Pretty much any Ford or Honda that is specced xW-20 in the USA, if sold in Australia will be specced 5w30

Have a look for yourself. [Castrol Australia Oil Guide]

Last time I checked the 5.0 V8 Mustang was 5W20 in the USA and 5W30 in Australia. Same with the fully imported Jeep Patriot 2.4L, it's 5W-20 in the USA but 5w30 in Australia.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveGG
You make several claims with nothing to back them up. The fuel savings for 0W-20 has been shown to be only 1.5%. Are you really saying that Honda would specify the wrong oil for that ?! Clearly there's less friction with 0W-20, so why isn't that better ? Where else in the world does Honda recommend a heavier oil for this exact same car ?


There's a rookie mistake that comes when starting in this area, that lower friction is lower wear.

As the oil gets thinner, the parts separation through hydrodynamics becomes lower, and contact starts to occur...friction modifiers and anti wear additives are used in these regions, and the friction drops a little bit again (no F.M. and the friction goes WAY up).

But at this point there's contact, and some wear takes place...more wear that when the oil is thick enough to keep the parts from touching.
 
Originally Posted By: SR5
Here is another 0W20 oil that isn't your typical ILSAC spec oil

Penrite 10-Tenths Racing 0W-20
100% PAO & Ester - fully Shear Free
API SL & MB 229.1
Zinc = 1760 ppm
Boron = 630 ppm
Moly = 100 ppm
Ca = 2960 ppm
TBN = 9.8

[Penrite Racing 0W20 Link]

Even I would run this stuff in a Honda Civic

penrite-10-tenths-racing-0-0w-20-5l.jpg



I don't think that oil can be sold as a 0w20.

It's either a 0w12 or a 0w16, possibly both.
 
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
I don't think that oil can be sold as a 0w20.

It's either a 0w12 or a 0w16.


When I got the HTHS off Penrite, it was clearly a "16"...
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
I don't think that oil can be sold as a 0w20.

It's either a 0w12 or a 0w16.


When I got the HTHS off Penrite, it was clearly a "16"...


J300 suggests some 16s could equally be labelled a 12, including this one.

Or is there some small print for guidance that is not on the chart?
 
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