BMW LL01 alternate oils

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: BobsArmory
I find it amusing when people buy high dollar cars that have a higher level of maintenance requirements then balk when they have to pay a few dollars more for an oil change.

The thing is that they really aren't that much (if any) more.

Castrol, PP and M1 A3/B4's are the same price as other top tiered synthetics. Filters can be a bit pricey if you don't know where to look, but we're in the wrong forum for that.

 

[IllinoisSparky]

Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: BobsArmory
I find it amusing when people buy high dollar cars that have a higher level of maintenance requirements then balk when they have to pay a few dollars more for an oil change.

I enjoy that myself.


Same here.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: BobsArmory
I find it amusing when people buy high dollar cars that have a higher level of maintenance requirements then balk when they have to pay a few dollars more for an oil change.

What makes it doubly silly is that Castrol 0W-40 (at least here in the US) is one of the least expensive synthetics on the market.

 

[userfriendly]

A well engineered engine should not be sensitive to engine oil selection and work equally well over a broad spectrum.
I found it true with Japanese and North American engine designs.
The fuel economy may change slightly, say from 5W20 to 15W40, but other than that, the engines don't care much as long as the W grade suits the ambient.
Maybe, just maybe, German engineering ain't what it's cracked up to be.
Again, maybe Donald Trump has this one right too.
Put a 25% tariff on them for taking up valuable shelf space in the oil department.

 

[RooflessVW]

I can't really do anything but roll my eyes here.

Saying LL01, 502, M229.5, A40, etc are bad because they are a guarantee of performance is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

The engineers want to ensure that oil performance remains consistent with regards to several parameters over the recommended drain intervals and the generally higher oil temps involved.

You can run a good 5W-30 conventional in a modern BMW engine and be just fine. You just can't do it for 10k+ miles.

 

[mightymousetech]

Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
I can't really do anything but roll my eyes here.

Saying LL01, 502, M229.5, A40, etc are bad because they are a guarantee of performance is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

The engineers want to ensure that oil performance remains consistent with regards to several parameters over the recommended drain intervals and the generally higher oil temps involved.

You can run a good 5W-30 conventional in a modern BMW engine and be just fine. You just can't do it for 10k+ miles.


How well would a conventional oil stand up to near 300F oil temps?

 

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
I can't really do anything but roll my eyes here.

Saying LL01, 502, M229.5, A40, etc are bad because they are a guarantee of performance is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

The engineers want to ensure that oil performance remains consistent with regards to several parameters over the recommended drain intervals and the generally higher oil temps involved.

You can run a good 5W-30 conventional in a modern BMW engine and be just fine. You just can't do it for 10k+ miles.

How well would a conventional oil stand up to near 300F oil temps?

Depends on the conventional. But it wouldn't do well for long.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
A well engineered engine should not be sensitive to engine oil selection and work equally well over a broad spectrum.
I found it true with Japanese and North American engine designs.
The fuel economy may change slightly, say from 5W20 to 15W40, but other than that, the engines don't care much as long as the W grade suits the ambient.
Maybe, just maybe, German engineering ain't what it's cracked up to be.
Again, maybe Donald Trump has this one right too.
Put a 25% tariff on them for taking up valuable shelf space in the oil department.

Well, for your info, since there are other parts of the world, Japanese engines in Europe are specd usually for ACEA A3/B3 B4 oils, often W40 oils.
As for American engines, those that are sold in Europe, like few Corvette's and Mustangs, some HEMI's are specd ALSO for ACEA A3/B3 B4 oils. Rest of American engines on German auto bahn would not make it from Munich to Hamburg.
European manufacturers are requiring from American driver same as from German driver, to be more engaged, and not ignorant. Japanese manufacturers gave up, so they cater to average American driver who care more about cup holders then what oil goes into engine.
And your understanding of engines is actually on par with Donald's.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: mightymousetech
Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
I can't really do anything but roll my eyes here.

Saying LL01, 502, M229.5, A40, etc are bad because they are a guarantee of performance is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

The engineers want to ensure that oil performance remains consistent with regards to several parameters over the recommended drain intervals and the generally higher oil temps involved.

You can run a good 5W-30 conventional in a modern BMW engine and be just fine. You just can't do it for 10k+ miles.


How well would a conventional oil stand up to near 300F oil temps?

Ask owners of VW Passat B5 and Audi A4 1.8T. When VW brought B5 to the U.S. in the end of 1990's they wanted to make Passat as simple to maintaine as Camry, so they told buyers: Sure, use anything. At the same time in Europe they required from buyers VW 502.00 oils.
How it ended up? In court since engines were sludging like crazy even using synthetics 5W30. My friend was using M! 5W30 in Audi A4 1.8T and at 80K sludge bomb happened. On other hand I saw those engines with 300k+ on VW 502.00 oils.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Just ask owners of VW Passat B5 and Audi A4 1.8T how that "cheapest synthetic oil" worked in their cars when VW said: yeah sure, use any synthetic and change it every 5K.
Every now and then we have similar member that thinks all cars are Corollas.


That wasn't the case. The VW owner's manual gave the dealership/owners options, so naturally people are cheap, so they used 5w30 conventional oil like Castrol GTX 5w30. The sludging was not an issue on the transverse 1.8T's, as the subframe did not interfere with the oil pan like the longitudinal 1.8T's, hence why transverse 1.8T's had a larger oil capacity than the longitudinal.

VW's fix was to clarify the owner's manual and state VW502.00 had to be used, along with a larger oil filter.

VW gave them option as? Use whatever you want. Why? To sell more cars since people in the U.S. want simple car from point A to point B that requires cheapest oil change.
I know what was fix, I owned them, and never had issue of course since I used VW 502.00 which was demanded in Europe from owners from the beginning.
As for cheapest oil, my friends A4 had sludge bomb at 80K using M1 5W30 ILSAC all the time.

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Just ask owners of VW Passat B5 and Audi A4 1.8T how that "cheapest synthetic oil" worked in their cars when VW said: yeah sure, use any synthetic and change it every 5K.
Every now and then we have similar member that thinks all cars are Corollas.


That wasn't the case. The VW owner's manual gave the dealership/owners options, so naturally people are cheap, so they used 5w30 conventional oil like Castrol GTX 5w30. The sludging was not an issue on the transverse 1.8T's, as the subframe did not interfere with the oil pan like the longitudinal 1.8T's, hence why transverse 1.8T's had a larger oil capacity than the longitudinal.

VW's fix was to clarify the owner's manual and state VW502.00 had to be used, along with a larger oil filter.

VW gave them option as? Use whatever you want. Why? To sell more cars since people in the U.S. want simple car from point A to point B that requires cheapest oil change.
I know what was fix, I owned them, and never had issue of course since I used VW 502.00 which was demanded in Europe from owners from the beginning.
As for cheapest oil, my friends A4 had sludge bomb at 80K using M1 5W30 ILSAC all the time.


The owner's manual only listed specs the oil can meet:
5w30 or 5w40
ACEA A3/A4
VW 502.00

as long as the oil met one of those specs, It was warrantied. So if you used 5w30 weight oil, say Castrol GTX, you were fine with the warranty. It never stated you must use a VW502.00.

You also missed the other key point. the sludging was only covered on the longitudinal 1.8T's, not the transverse 1.8T's, due to larger sump capacity, as the transverse oil plan did not interfere with the subframe, like the longitudinal.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Just ask owners of VW Passat B5 and Audi A4 1.8T how that "cheapest synthetic oil" worked in their cars when VW said: yeah sure, use any synthetic and change it every 5K.
Every now and then we have similar member that thinks all cars are Corollas.


That wasn't the case. The VW owner's manual gave the dealership/owners options, so naturally people are cheap, so they used 5w30 conventional oil like Castrol GTX 5w30. The sludging was not an issue on the transverse 1.8T's, as the subframe did not interfere with the oil pan like the longitudinal 1.8T's, hence why transverse 1.8T's had a larger oil capacity than the longitudinal.

VW's fix was to clarify the owner's manual and state VW502.00 had to be used, along with a larger oil filter.

VW gave them option as? Use whatever you want. Why? To sell more cars since people in the U.S. want simple car from point A to point B that requires cheapest oil change.
I know what was fix, I owned them, and never had issue of course since I used VW 502.00 which was demanded in Europe from owners from the beginning.
As for cheapest oil, my friends A4 had sludge bomb at 80K using M1 5W30 ILSAC all the time.


The owner's manual only listed specs the oil can meet:
5w30 or 5w40
ACEA A3/A4
VW 502.00

as long as the oil met one of those specs, It was warrantied. So if you used 5w30 weight oil, say Castrol GTX, you were fine with the warranty. It never stated you must use a VW502.00.

You also missed the other key point. the sludging was only covered on the longitudinal 1.8T's, not the transverse 1.8T's, due to larger sump capacity, as the transverse oil plan did not interfere with the subframe, like the longitudinal.

I think that came later, after 2001 with technical bulletin.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Just ask owners of VW Passat B5 and Audi A4 1.8T how that "cheapest synthetic oil" worked in their cars when VW said: yeah sure, use any synthetic and change it every 5K.
Every now and then we have similar member that thinks all cars are Corollas.


That wasn't the case. The VW owner's manual gave the dealership/owners options, so naturally people are cheap, so they used 5w30 conventional oil like Castrol GTX 5w30. The sludging was not an issue on the transverse 1.8T's, as the subframe did not interfere with the oil pan like the longitudinal 1.8T's, hence why transverse 1.8T's had a larger oil capacity than the longitudinal.

VW's fix was to clarify the owner's manual and state VW502.00 had to be used, along with a larger oil filter.

VW gave them option as? Use whatever you want. Why? To sell more cars since people in the U.S. want simple car from point A to point B that requires cheapest oil change.
I know what was fix, I owned them, and never had issue of course since I used VW 502.00 which was demanded in Europe from owners from the beginning.
As for cheapest oil, my friends A4 had sludge bomb at 80K using M1 5W30 ILSAC all the time.


The owner's manual only listed specs the oil can meet:
5w30 or 5w40
ACEA A3/A4
VW 502.00

as long as the oil met one of those specs, It was warrantied. So if you used 5w30 weight oil, say Castrol GTX, you were fine with the warranty. It never stated you must use a VW502.00.

You also missed the other key point. the sludging was only covered on the longitudinal 1.8T's, not the transverse 1.8T's, due to larger sump capacity, as the transverse oil plan did not interfere with the subframe, like the longitudinal.

I'm with edyvw and consider your position as misguided that could cause harm to any VW engines.

 

[glxpassat]

The 1.8T's were originally on 10k oci's, and along with a low sump capacity, many were using non synthetic oil.

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: edyvw


That wasn't the case. The VW owner's manual gave the dealership/owners options, so naturally people are cheap, so they used 5w30 conventional oil like Castrol GTX 5w30. The sludging was not an issue on the transverse 1.8T's, as the subframe did not interfere with the oil pan like the longitudinal 1.8T's, hence why transverse 1.8T's had a larger oil capacity than the longitudinal.

VW's fix was to clarify the owner's manual and state VW502.00 had to be used, along with a larger oil filter.

VW gave them option as? Use whatever you want. Why? To sell more cars since people in the U.S. want simple car from point A to point B that requires cheapest oil change.
I know what was fix, I owned them, and never had issue of course since I used VW 502.00 which was demanded in Europe from owners from the beginning.
As for cheapest oil, my friends A4 had sludge bomb at 80K using M1 5W30 ILSAC all the time.


The owner's manual only listed specs the oil can meet:
5w30 or 5w40
ACEA A3/A4
VW 502.00

as long as the oil met one of those specs, It was warrantied. So if you used 5w30 weight oil, say Castrol GTX, you were fine with the warranty. It never stated you must use a VW502.00.

You also missed the other key point. the sludging was only covered on the longitudinal 1.8T's, not the transverse 1.8T's, due to larger sump capacity, as the transverse oil plan did not interfere with the subframe, like the longitudinal.

I'm with edyvw and consider your position as misguided that could cause harm to any VW engines.[/quote]

All I stated was the facts of the sludge fiasco and how VW and Audi handled their customers

 

[dubber09]

Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Just ask owners of VW Passat B5 and Audi A4 1.8T how that "cheapest synthetic oil" worked in their cars when VW said: yeah sure, use any synthetic and change it every 5K.
Every now and then we have similar member that thinks all cars are Corollas.


That wasn't the case. The VW owner's manual gave the dealership/owners options, so naturally people are cheap, so they used 5w30 conventional oil like Castrol GTX 5w30. The sludging was not an issue on the transverse 1.8T's, as the subframe did not interfere with the oil pan like the longitudinal 1.8T's, hence why transverse 1.8T's had a larger oil capacity than the longitudinal.

VW's fix was to clarify the owner's manual and state VW502.00 had to be used, along with a larger oil filter.

VW gave them option as? Use whatever you want. Why? To sell more cars since people in the U.S. want simple car from point A to point B that requires cheapest oil change.
I know what was fix, I owned them, and never had issue of course since I used VW 502.00 which was demanded in Europe from owners from the beginning.
As for cheapest oil, my friends A4 had sludge bomb at 80K using M1 5W30 ILSAC all the time.


The owner's manual only listed specs the oil can meet:
5w30 or 5w40
ACEA A3/A4
VW 502.00

as long as the oil met one of those specs, It was warrantied. So if you used 5w30 weight oil, say Castrol GTX, you were fine with the warranty. It never stated you must use a VW502.00.

You also missed the other key point. the sludging was only covered on the longitudinal 1.8T's, not the transverse 1.8T's, due to larger sump capacity, as the transverse oil plan did not interfere with the subframe, like the longitudinal.


How can that be?
One is viscosity, the other ones are certifications.
Those all had to be met, not just one of them.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: dubber09
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat

The owner's manual only listed specs the oil can meet:
5w30 or 5w40
ACEA A3/A4
VW 502.00

as long as the oil met one of those specs, It was warrantied. So if you used 5w30 weight oil, say Castrol GTX, you were fine with the warranty. It never stated you must use a VW502.00.

You also missed the other key point. the sludging was only covered on the longitudinal 1.8T's, not the transverse 1.8T's, due to larger sump capacity, as the transverse oil plan did not interfere with the subframe, like the longitudinal.


How can that be?
One is viscosity, the other ones are certifications.
Those all had to be met, not just one of them.

Because there was no explicit "and" linking all the various terms together, then it was kind of left to one's own interpretation. A mess.

 

[dubber09]

I'm amazed people who don't get it still drive, they should be sitting at 'stop' signs since it doesn't say 'stop then go'... LOL

 

[mightymousetech]

Originally Posted By: dubber09
I'm amazed people who don't get it still drive, they should be sitting at 'stop' signs since it doesn't say 'stop then go'... LOL


:lol: Agreed. If people could not figure out what that list means, maybe they should not be driving.

 

[edyvw]

Quote:
How can that be?
One is viscosity, the other ones are certifications.
Those all had to be met, not just one of them.

Yeah, but VW 502.00 was not specified until technical bulletin in 2001.
After that, what really matters is VW 502.00, not a grade.