Mobil 0W40 vs Castrol 0W40

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Originally Posted By: dlundblad
FWIW, AAP has 5 quarts of Castrol synthetic and a Fram Ultra for $33.

Last month, Oreilly had the same deal, but it included a WIX filter. You could also send in for a $10 gift card.


Thats a pretty good deal thanks for sharing. I bought a 5qt container of the 0w40 on Amazon for $22.97 which I thought was a good deal also.
 
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
FWIW, AAP has 5 quarts of Castrol synthetic and a Fram Ultra for $33.

Last month, Oreilly had the same deal, but it included a WIX filter. You could also send in for a $10 gift card.


Thats a pretty good deal thanks for sharing. I bought a 5qt container of the 0w40 on Amazon for $22.97 which I thought was a good deal also.

Last time I bought Castrol 0W40 to change in Tiguan, I got it for $22.98 in Wal Mart.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
FWIW, AAP has 5 quarts of Castrol synthetic and a Fram Ultra for $33.

Last month, Oreilly had the same deal, but it included a WIX filter. You could also send in for a $10 gift card.


Thats a pretty good deal thanks for sharing. I bought a 5qt container of the 0w40 on Amazon for $22.97 which I thought was a good deal also.

Last time I bought Castrol 0W40 to change in Tiguan, I got it for $22.98 in Wal Mart.


Yea but you had to go to Walmart to get it! Sorry i couldn't resist lol I try to avoid going there whenever possible lol.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
FWIW, AAP has 5 quarts of Castrol synthetic and a Fram Ultra for $33.

Last month, Oreilly had the same deal, but it included a WIX filter. You could also send in for a $10 gift card.


Thats a pretty good deal thanks for sharing. I bought a 5qt container of the 0w40 on Amazon for $22.97 which I thought was a good deal also.

Last time I bought Castrol 0W40 to change in Tiguan, I got it for $22.98 in Wal Mart.


Yea but you had to go to Walmart to get it! Sorry i couldn't resist lol I try to avoid going there whenever possible lol.

lol, well that is another issue:)
I still like to shop locally bcs of sales tax.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Considering that your Corolla does not require thick oil, but you want one, I would go with Castrol 0W30. But then, 0W30 is some $9 per quart.

The reason for switching to thicker oil was somewhat high Pb (4 ppm) and Cr (5.5 ppm) in the UOA (link). There was some coolant-seep issue that has now been fixed with ACDelco cooling-system seal tabs, which could have been the reason. OCI was also quite long in temporal duration (540 days) and the trips were mainly short trips.

Perhaps this engine needs a strong additive pack (strong detergent) as in M1 0W-40 SN to deal with some acid-corrosion issues. I got it ridiculously cheap after rebate -- $2.60 per quart.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
My 85 Corolla 4A-LC engine specifies 10W-30 to 20W-50 and has the following standard bearing clearances for new bearings:

Main bearing: 12 - 49 micron
Connecting bearing: 20 - 51 micron
Main journal diameter: 48.0 mm

For BMW S65:

Main bearing: 31 - 51 micron
Connecting bearing: 15 - 53, 29 - 51, 20 - 36, 38 - 55, 41 - 56 micron (depending on the bearing type)
Main journal diameter: 60.0 mm

So, the bearing clearance for S65 is not small at all. I believe the flow rate goes as the square of the area of the clearance. So, S65 should be able to tolerate a lot thicker oil than my 4A-LC, which specifies and can run fine with 20W-50. S65 bearing clearances are simply not tight at all.

Therefore, I doubt the bearing clearance and oil viscosity is the issue here.



Obviously bearing clearances of S65 is coarse,thus can take thicker oils , in relation to Corolla.

Btw Gokhan, mind sharing the conrod crankpin diameters of Corolla and S65?
 
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
There are plenty of people including myself who actually own these cars and know about the engine that would disagree with you. The clearance to journal ratio best practice rule that factory and racing engine builders have followed for a long time would say different also. Clevite who made the oem bearing for some of these engines recommends the same clearance ratio. The S65 clearance ratio is smaller than this minimum recommended best practice value. The many failed S65 engines that people have had that were inspected by machine shops and engine builders have said most were from too little bearing oil clearance. Most of these engines also had very tight rod side clearance causing damage to the rod's and crankshaft. There are plenty of documented bearing failures out there that you can research and find yourself. Also the bearing clearances you are talking about for the S65 and toyota engine don't prove any point without mention journal diameters. Without that information their clearance specifications don't mean very much.

Well... I certainly believe you that S65 engine is poorly designed, with bad bearing geometry among other things, and this is causing wear issues. However, I don't believe that the issue is oil starvation here. Even if the rod bearings are tight, there is plenty of room there for even the 10W-60 to flow. So, I don't buy the argument that the bearings are too tight and the oil is too thick so that the bearings are being oil-starved. This just can't be. If that was the case, any engine would be toast with any kind of oil because all oils are extremely thick when they are cold.

Too tight bearing could result in mechanical pressure problems though, as the bearing doesn't have enough play and the high pressures generated by the high-horsepower engine could lead to bearing movement beyond the available clearance. I believe that. However, in this case, a thicker oil would actually help, not hurt. Saying that a thicker oil is actually causing more bearing wear just goes against everything.

Did anyone run German Castrol 0W-30 or 0W-40 in S65 and saw that the bearing problem went away as with Mobil 1 0W-40? It did not according to what I could find out there. Perhaps I would believe that the issue is oil viscosity here if you could point to that. The fact that people are reporting successful UOAs in S65 only with M1 0W-40 tells you something.

Most engines will do fine with most oils. You see the real quality of an oil only in poorly designed engines such as S65.

Once again, read the Chevron Oronite paper (link) about TBN retention (why TBN retention is not all that matters). The detergent package (Ca, Mg , or mixed Ca/Mg) is absolutely crucial in determining lead-based bearing wear and it could be like day and night from one detergent to other.

FWIW, Corolla 4A-LC/4A-C bearing diameters are 48 mm and 40 mm for main and rod, respectively. BMW S65 bearing diameters are 60 mm and 52 mm for main and rod, respectively.

Here are all the specs for Corolla 4A-LC/4A-C gasoline and Corolla 1C diesel engines if you are interested:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-iCD-jqG5TDU/ViVJPTg0UrI/AAAAAAAAyHE/IS06_EJwA-w/s0-d/IMAG4778.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hjyeOQzwQyE/ViVJPW1HgyI/AAAAAAAAyGE/RmWNimSNjRE/s0-d/IMAG4779.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XJI8ZOtwVr4/ViVJPQAqtYI/AAAAAAAAyG4/_4S4BMseuLs/s0-d/IMAG4780.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-cafGYh7RMFY/ViVJPTITg5I/AAAAAAAAyGY/-fqtrG6trmI/s0-d/IMAG4781.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7CaltPcVyqA/ViVJPe2VtuI/AAAAAAAAyGQ/LEp6fdaIsN8/s0-d/IMAG4782.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wY5JJYqFlIo/ViVJPaPq_FI/AAAAAAAAyHA/ipd3-pw1COI/s0-d/IMAG4783.jpg

BMW S65 specs can be found here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Rendezvous
There are plenty of people including myself who actually own these cars and know about the engine that would disagree with you. The clearance to journal ratio best practice rule that factory and racing engine builders have followed for a long time would say different also. Clevite who made the oem bearing for some of these engines recommends the same clearance ratio. The S65 clearance ratio is smaller than this minimum recommended best practice value. The many failed S65 engines that people have had that were inspected by machine shops and engine builders have said most were from too little bearing oil clearance. Most of these engines also had very tight rod side clearance causing damage to the rod's and crankshaft. There are plenty of documented bearing failures out there that you can research and find yourself. Also the bearing clearances you are talking about for the S65 and toyota engine don't prove any point without mention journal diameters. Without that information their clearance specifications don't mean very much.

Well... I certainly believe you that S65 engine is poorly designed, with bad bearing geometry among other things, and this is causing wear issues. However, I don't believe that the issue is oil starvation here. Even if the rod bearings are tight, there is plenty of room there for even the 10W-60 to flow. So, I don't buy the argument that the bearings are too tight and the oil is too thick so that the bearings are being oil-starved. This just can't be. If that was the case, any engine would be toast with any kind of oil because all oils are extremely thick when they are cold.

Too tight bearing could result in mechanical pressure problems though, as the bearing doesn't have enough play and the high pressures generated by the high-horsepower engine could lead to bearing movement beyond the available clearance. I believe that. However, in this case, a thicker oil would actually help, not hurt. Saying that a thicker oil is actually causing more bearing wear just goes against everything.

Did anyone run German Castrol 0W-30 or 0W-40 in S65 and saw that the bearing problem went away as with Mobil 1 0W-40? Not according to what I could find out there. Perhaps I would believe that the issue is oil viscosity here if you could point to that. The fact that people are reporting successful UOAs in S65 with only M1 0W-40 tells you something.

Most engines will do fine with most oils. You see the real quality of an oil only in poorly designed engines such as S65.

Once again, read the Chevron Oronite paper (link) about TBN retention (why TBN retention is not all that matters). The detergent package (Ca, Mg , or mixed Ca/Mg) is absolutely crucial in determining lead-based bearing wear and it could be like day and night from one detergent to other.

FWIW, Corolla 4A-LC/4A-C bearing diameters are 48 mm and 40 mm for main and rod, respectively. BMW S65 bearing diameters are 60 mm and 52 mm for main and rod, respectively.

Here are all the specs for Corolla 4A-LC/4A-C gasoline and Corolla 1C diesel engines if you are interested:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-iCD-jqG5TDU/ViVJPTg0UrI/AAAAAAAAyHE/IS06_EJwA-w/s0-d/IMAG4778.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hjyeOQzwQyE/ViVJPW1HgyI/AAAAAAAAyGE/RmWNimSNjRE/s0-d/IMAG4779.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XJI8ZOtwVr4/ViVJPQAqtYI/AAAAAAAAyG4/_4S4BMseuLs/s0-d/IMAG4780.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-cafGYh7RMFY/ViVJPTITg5I/AAAAAAAAyGY/-fqtrG6trmI/s0-d/IMAG4781.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7CaltPcVyqA/ViVJPe2VtuI/AAAAAAAAyGQ/LEp6fdaIsN8/s0-d/IMAG4782.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wY5JJYqFlIo/ViVJPaPq_FI/AAAAAAAAyHA/ipd3-pw1COI/s0-d/IMAG4783.jpg

BMW S65 specs can be found here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=892838



Wow lolz Did you even read the thread you posted from m3post? It is a 142 page thread about bearing issues with these motors. Its okay though I learned a long time ago to not argue with a brick wall. You know everything.
 
Thanks heaps for the files/info.

In relation to Japanese engines oil clearances being tighter, I've come across here earlier on someone posted a Mercedes M119(?) oil clearances that was coarser than Mitsubishi's.

Now S65 oil clearances indicated here is also coarser than Corolla/Mitsubishi's.

Not sure about German VW/Audi though.
 
I might have to try the Castrol 0W40 in my 2012 E350 to see if it helps to quiet down it's 276 DI motor; that motor makes quite a racket. Been using Mobil 1 and Mercedes 5W40 oils up to now.
 
Originally Posted By: SIXSPEED
I might have to try the Castrol 0W40 in my 2012 E350 to see if it helps to quiet down it's 276 DI motor; that motor makes quite a racket. Been using Mobil 1 and Mercedes 5W40 oils up to now.

Regarding engine noise, I respect people's opinions but my conviction is that it's mostly a perception issue. Human ear isn't good at detecting small differences in sound levels -- that's why we have a decibel scale. Detecting changes in the frequency composition is equally difficult. I simply don't believe that switching between oil brands within the same viscosity or switching between conventional and synthetic makes much difference. Perhaps going to a thicker oil may quiet certain things a little but that's about it.

Regarding the extreme-cold performance, M1 0W-40 SN CCS is reported to be 5,700 cP, slightly less than Castrol's 5,950 cP. On top of that, M1 has a much better VI -- 185 as opposed to 168. Therefore, I also dismiss that Castrol has any better extreme-cold performance either because it's not lining up with analytical facts.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: SIXSPEED
I might have to try the Castrol 0W40 in my 2012 E350 to see if it helps to quiet down it's 276 DI motor; that motor makes quite a racket. Been using Mobil 1 and Mercedes 5W40 oils up to now.

Regarding engine noise, I respect people's opinions but my conviction is that it's mostly a perception issue. Human ear isn't good at detecting small differences in sound levels -- that's why we have a decibel scale. Detecting changes in the frequency composition is equally difficult. I simply don't believe that switching between oil brands within the same viscosity or switching between conventional and synthetic makes much difference. Perhaps going to a thicker oil may quiet certain things a little but that's about it.

Regarding the extreme-cold performance, M1 0W-40 SN CCS is reported to be 5,700 cP, slightly less than Castrol's 5,950 cP. On top of that, M1 has a much better VI -- 185 as opposed to 168. Therefore, I also dismiss that Castrol has any better extreme-cold performance either because it's not lining up with analytical facts.

How about you try some of these oils and then give your opinion in the lines of: "probably ruining your engine?"
The post you put on thread about GC in my opinion should be voted as best post of the year. It was reading on par with best acts of SNL.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Regarding engine noise, I respect people's opinions but my conviction is that it's mostly a perception issue. Human ear isn't good at detecting small differences in sound levels -- that's why we have a decibel scale.


Where I notice the difference is at high rpm where the engine is loud, not cruising around at part throttle. My engine does not seem to be as loud with the German Castrol as it does Mobil 1. I have been driving the same car for over 12 years and have tried many different oils. Every time I come back to GC, it just seems smoother. The only other oil I have tried that seems as smooth is Royal Purple, but it's way to expensive compared to the killer deal on GC at Walmart, and they've changed the formulation since I tried it, probably 7 years ago. BTW, I don't think the current GC is as smooth as the green stuff that they quit making in January 2005.
 
Originally Posted By: glxpassat
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Regarding engine noise, I respect people's opinions but my conviction is that it's mostly a perception issue. Human ear isn't good at detecting small differences in sound levels -- that's why we have a decibel scale.


Where I notice the difference is at high rpm where the engine is loud, not cruising around at part throttle. My engine does not seem to be as loud with the German Castrol as it does Mobil 1. I have been driving the same car for over 12 years and have tried many different oils. Every time I come back to GC, it just seems smoother. The only other oil I have tried that seems as smooth is Royal Purple, but it's way to expensive compared to the killer deal on GC at Walmart, and they've changed the formulation since I tried it, probably 7 years ago. BTW, I don't think the current GC is as smooth as the green stuff that they quit making in January 2005.

I was telling same thing, but apparently research paper says different.
I am still waiting from Gokhan examples of engines that GC ruined and those UOA with high TAN.
 
The only explanation for reduced noise at high RPM would be a difference in KV and/or HTHSV. Is your engine quieter with thinner or thicker oil?

Regarding UOAs, other people's UOAs are usually not that relevant to my application. I sample before the oil change and make my decision on which oil to use next according to the UOA. If the Mobil 1 0W-40 SN UOA is good, I will stick with it. Otherwise, I will try something else.

GC Mg/Ca ratios don't seem that high and it should be OK for most applications. The Mg/Ca ratios in non-0W-40 M1 grades are worse (higher). Yes, the word "ruin" was an overexaggeration.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
The only explanation for reduced noise at high RPM would be a difference in KV and/or HTHSV. Is your engine quieter with thinner or thicker oil?

Regarding UOAs, other people's UOAs are usually not that relevant to my application. I sample before the oil change and make my decision on which oil to use next according to the UOA. If the Mobil 1 0W-40 SN UOA is good, I will stick with it. Otherwise, I will try something else.

GC Mg/Ca ratios don't seem that high and it should be OK for most applications. The Mg/Ca ratios in non-0W-40 M1 grades are worse (higher). Yes, the word "ruin" was an overexaggeration.

Your application? Your car can run on olive oil, not M1 0W40.
You are giving "advices" left and right how Castrol might "ruin" their engines, but in your case UOA's are not relevant?
GC, M1 are oils for extremely demanding engines, which Corolla is NOT!
You posted research paper, about diesel engines, and that is SOMEHOW relevant to ALL engines using GC, but GC UOA's is not relevant to your engine.
Move from theory to practice, then let's have conversation.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Your application? Your car can run on olive oil, not M1 0W40.

The same thing can be said about your car and any German make. Do you honestly believe that most API SN oils wouldn't pass the ACEA engine tests?

Regarding my application, we are talking about an engine that was designed for API SF, when ZDDP and detergent contents were virtually unlimited. 2000 - 3000 ppm phosphorus was common back then. On top of that, when you have a small engine, there is more pressure on the parts when you put it under the load. A BMW can go 65 MPH with 10% throttle but mine requires 50% or more. It's not that you are driving your car on high throttle in the leftmost lane of a German autobahn; so, why should there be a need for better oil for your engine than lower-performance engines? My engine experiences more severe driving than yours based on percentage load/throttle opening.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Regarding my application, we are talking about an engine that was designed for API SF, when ZDDP and detergent contents were virtually unlimited. 2000 - 3000 ppm phosphorus was common back then.

Find me a VOA to back that up, and not a race oil, either. Oils back in those days actually tended to have less phosphorus than they do now. Unlimited doesn't mean they had to load it up. That's been a myth, and Blackstone and others have debunked that a long time ago.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Regarding my application, we are talking about an engine that was designed for API SF, when ZDDP and detergent contents were virtually unlimited. 2000 - 3000 ppm phosphorus was common back then.

Find me a VOA to back that up, and not a race oil, either. Oils back in those days actually tended to have less phosphorus than they do now. Unlimited doesn't mean they had to load it up. That's been a myth, and Blackstone and others have debunked that a long time ago.

API SF had a minimum phosphorus limit of 1500 ppm with no maximum limit.

Link (PDF file)
 
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