Mobil 0W40 vs Castrol 0W40

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Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Your application? Your car can run on olive oil, not M1 0W40.

The same thing can be said about your car and any German make. Do you honestly believe that most API SN oils wouldn't pass the ACEA engine tests?

Regarding my application, we are talking about an engine that was designed for API SF, when ZDDP and detergent contents were virtually unlimited. 2000 - 3000 ppm phosphorus was common back then. On top of that, when you have a small engine, there is more pressure on the parts when you put it under the load. A BMW can go 65 MPH with 10% throttle but mine requires 50% or more. It's not that you are driving your car on high throttle in the leftmost lane of a German autobahn; so, why should there be a need for better oil for your engine than lower-performance engines? My engine experiences more severe driving than yours based on percentage load/throttle opening.

What ACEA engine test? ACEA A3? No, for example M1 5W30 SN that you can buy in Wal Mart cannot pass ACEA A3/B3, VW 502.00, BMW LL-01, and especially MB 229.5.
So you are saying that your hair dryer under the hood is more demanding on oil then BMW N55 engine?
Please continue, because I really enjoy your writing
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Originally Posted By: Gokhan
API SF had a minimum phosphorus limit of 1500 ppm with no maximum limit.

I don't buy that for a second, literally or figuratively. Come back with an API link. As the list of VOAs have shown, most didn't even approach 1500 ppm, let alone vault over it. Phosphorous minimums are rather recent, if I recall correctly. The old stuff is remembered way too fondly, and terribly inaccurately.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
API SF had a minimum phosphorus limit of 1500 ppm with no maximum limit.

I don't buy that for a second, literally or figuratively. Come back with an API link. As the list of VOAs have shown, most didn't even approach 1500 ppm, let alone vault over it. Phosphorous minimums are rather recent, if I recall correctly. The old stuff is remembered way too fondly, and terribly inaccurately.

Are those below 1500 pm API-SF-certified? SE didn't have a minimum limit and neither did SG. SF is unusual in that respect.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Are those below 1500 pm API-SF-certified? SE didn't have a minimum limit and neither did SG. SF is unusual in that respect.

Like I said, I'd like to see a link that isn't a sales pitch, and that actually has some references. I find it hard to believe that the API had no phosphorous minimum, brought it in once for SF, and then got rid of it again until SL or SM. I still haven't seen any examples where we have phosphorus even approaching 3000 ppm, outside of race oils or break in products.

Maybe Mola or someone who knows the history intimately will pop into the thread. Or, if we can find a link to back up this stuff. 3000 ppm of phosphorus is corrosive, and formulators definitely knew that before SF.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Are those below 1500 pm API-SF-certified? SE didn't have a minimum limit and neither did SG. SF is unusual in that respect.

I am not sure if the minimum limit is 1200 or 1500 pm, but in any case, API SF has the highest ZDDP level among all API certification categories. Here is another reference (PDF link).
 
That's not a reference, but a statement.

A reference would be a copy of the 1980 SAE J183, or a bunch of VOAs showing 3,000ppm of P.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
That's not a reference, but a statement.

A reference would be a copy of the 1980 SAE J183, or a bunch of VOAs showing 3,000ppm of P.

thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I am not sure if the minimum limit is 1200 or 1500 pm, but in any case, API SF has the highest ZDDP level among all API certification categories. Here is another reference (PDF link).

That's another link from the ZDDP Plus people, you know. That still doesn't prove that there were phosphorus minimums, or that actual, finished oil phosphorus concentration peaked with SF.

All that has been adequately demonstrated to me is that when the phosphorus limits were reduced, people, including me, panicked without knowing the actual state of the oils they were using, and snake oil salesmen saw another opportunity.
 
ZDDP question is a moot point. My primary argument was that unless you are operating a high-performance engine in high-performance conditions (as in the leftmost lane of a German autobahn), it's not hard on oil, and small engines can be hard on oil in less demanding operating conditions because the throttle opening can be a lot higher in similar normal driving conditions.

API SF doesn't appear to have minimum or maximum limits on chemical concentrations. Moreover, ZDDP levels seems to have stayed steady or increased through API SL. It looks like the typical phosphorous levels were 1000 - 1500 ppm for SL and prior grades.

Here are some good books:

https://books.google.com/books?id=d6kPqVNdurgC

https://books.google.com/books?id=0-HYlCqRpdUC

https://books.google.com/books?id=HbmRTYPdeoAC
 
It certainly is a moot point. I just wanted to point out that we never had those phosphorus levels that are fondly remembered, particularly as portrayed by the marketing departments of additive companies. To hear them tell it, we were all using M1 pure racing oils when SF was current.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
It certainly is a moot point. I just wanted to point out that we never had those phosphorus levels that are fondly remembered, particularly as portrayed by the marketing departments of additive companies. To hear them tell it, we were all using M1 pure racing oils when SF was current.


Penrite tends to agree with you Garak, they say even in API SG (1989) days, most oils were at 1000ppm P, well below the maximum allowable.

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/images/PENR0138_Penrite_Zinc Tech Bulletin.pdf

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/tech_pdfs/0Zinc Myths & Legends Nov 2014.pdf

The other point that should be remembered, is that high Zinc amounts were often used because of the lead in the fuel and the associated lead scavengers used. The lead scavengers reduced the effectiveness of the ZDDP causing higher concentrations to be used for the same effect. Today, we have unleaded fuel and so less Zinc is required to have the same protective effect.
 
Yep, things were usually not as "good" as we like to remember them, regardless of the situation. It's good to have standards and all, but the oils that were really high anyhow probably weren't even rated for gasoline engines. Right around that time, too, that's when we started to see the real split between HDEOs and PCMOs. Even my old F-150, with no catalytic converter or anything, has some peculiar warning about using dual rated oils. I'll have to take a look at the wording, for interest's sake, one of these days.
 
FYI, WalMart has a sale on Castrol Edge 0W40 in five quart jugs for $22.97 each: I haven't seen it anywhere near that price recently. I generally pick M1 or Edge on the basis of what is cheaper. My 1998 S420 Mercedes, seems happy with either brand.
 
Originally Posted By: Tigerbangs
FYI, WalMart has a sale on Castrol Edge 0W40 in five quart jugs for $22.97 each

Must be a regional thing. I looked at my local WM yesterday, and it was at $26-ish.
 
You need to go to Walmart.com to get that price. The stores have it higher. If you order and pay online, you can pick up the oil at the store's Customer Pick-Up counter. Just a little trick that I learned.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Tigerbangs
FYI, WalMart has a sale on Castrol Edge 0W40 in five quart jugs for $22.97 each

Must be a regional thing. I looked at my local WM yesterday, and it was at $26-ish.


My local Walmart has the "higher" prices listed on the shelves for Pennz Platinum and Castrol. But, when you check them under the price scanner (or when checking out) the "roll back" price comes up. Price scanner is your friend.

My 1999 Camaro when new was raised on SJ oil. That's 1000+ ppm Phos and 1100+ ppm Zinc. The same spec was still true when SL came out in 2004. Since my cats were made in 1999 they are still fine with those higher levels of Phos/Zinc.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Yep, things were usually not as "good" as we like to remember them,.


Present company excepted of course
 
Well, I'm as guilty as anyone of remembering a past product with fondness or getting irked when something is changed, automatically assuming it's for the worse.
wink.gif
I had a tantrum when Defy went GF-5 and I'll be worked up when CJ-4 is replaced, too!
 
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