Advice: Just lost 2 engines pre-100k miles

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: shredguy

All of our post 2010 trucks are DEF required. What sucks is that our 2011 that blew a gasket was a DEF required truck.

I think our high level of idle/PTO operation is definitely adversely affecting our dpf function. Just not sure how to fix it. I guess we could have each driver go for an extra 20 mile drive once a week.

The extra drive will definitely help with the DPF systems. Most SCR (or DEF) systems are tuned to help reduce the need of of the regen cycle which burns out and cleans your DPF. I would also recommend that once a year (or maybe twice) that you have the filter from the DPF pulled, inspected and cleaned. Up here we have seen trucks that spend most of it's time at idle catch fire because of a clogged particulate filter that didn't regen often enough and was never checked. When these systems aren't working properly they can cause other issues, which may be related to your failures.

Also get in touch with your fuel supplier, and check your fuel quality vs the fuel specs issued by the engine manufacturer like this one from cummins. My experience has been that higher cetane fuels and higher BTU from fuel burned means less problems with the emission systems. Also a question to ask about is biodiesel content, detergency and thermal stability of the fuel - these can make a difference in the quality of combustion which can then influence things like fuel dilution.

 

[SatinSilver]

All these acronyms have me confused. PTO, DEF, DPF, SCR and BTU. Ok, the last I one I know but what does the first one stand for, paid time off?

 

[m37charlie]

PTO = power take off
DEF = diesel exhaust fluid
DPF = diesel particulate filter
SCR = selective catalyst reduction

Charlie

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: m37charlie
PTO = power take off
DEF = diesel exhaust fluid
DPF = diesel particulate filter
SCR = selective catalyst reduction

Charlie


Just for clarification:

DEF is injeted into a diesel engine's exhaust gas before it passes through a catalyst. The catalyst reacts with the DEF and nitrogen oxide in the diesel exhaust to produce nitrogen and free oxygen. The free oxygen contributes to a later reaction that burns unburned hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide to CO2 and water, and any oxygen still left will hit the hot particulate filter and burn the trapped soot (carbon) particles to CO2. That's why DEF and DPF work pretty well together, and trucks that try to reduce NOx with only EGR tend to clog their DPFs more and need more regen cycles.

Ideally the particulate filter is constantly trapping and burning particulates as the truck does its job and never really needs a "regen" cycle. Work the truck hard all the time, and indeed this does seem to happen. But a lightly loaded truck idling around town (or cruising the highway with no payload) will not put enough heat into the particulate filter to do that all the time. Without a regen cycle, a lightly loaded truck's DPF will clog, backpressure will go up, and performance suffers. The bad thing about regen cycles is that they waste fuel- either by dumping it into the exhaust stream directly (no side effect other than wasted fuel) or by firing the engine's injectors on the exhaust stroke (which causes severe fuel dilution of the oil).

 

[SatinSilver]

Ahhh, that helps thanks guys. The DEF I probably should have known but I started to go on overload with the other ones thrown in.

 

[TiredTrucker]

What a wonderful world the EPA has given us. I am so thankful I got a 2013 Freightliner last year with a pre-emission (read.. no EGR, no DPF, no SCR... just engine) Detroit 12.7L Series 60, factory rebuilt with full warranty and legal! And got to avoid, again legally, the Federal Excise Tax on new equipment. Nice loophole in the IRS code. Saved roughly $40K on the purchase compared to an equivalent spec'd new truck with all the EPA goodies. What a country!

 

[KD0AXS]

Originally Posted By: shredguy
Originally Posted By: KenO
Here's one - do you NEED trucks with diesel engines? Will a gasoline engine perform this task? What about a truck with a separate engine powering the shredding unit, like how reefer units have their own separate diesel engine??


Shredding trucks are very specialized, there are only 3 major manufacturers. They all come on Diesels and run off of PTO.


There's really nothing special about the truck itself. The truck starts as a standard cab and chassis, and the shredder manufacturer just installs the equipment on the truck. Looks like they mostly use International or Freightliner trucks these days, (Sterling was discontinued) but really any truck with a PTO could run a shredder.

That being said, a gas engine probably isn't ideal for this application, and the choices are very limited. The only gas powered Class 6/7 truck is the Ford F-650/750, which is available with the 6.8L V-10.

Honestly, I think the best setup for this application would be for the shredder unit to be self contained and powered by a small diesel engine. That engine wouldn't be subject to all the emissions [censored].

 

[TiredTrucker]

That concept is similar to what over the road trucks do... the main engine is only used to move the truck. When the vehicle is parked, then many OTR trucks have diesel powered auxiliary power units to heat/cool and charge batteries.

Also, a small diesel engine used for the shredder unit, would not be subject to emissions requirements like road engine, just like small agricultural diesels are not. And you could use lower priced, road tax free, off road diesel fuel to power it. And the diesels designed as power units for applications like this, do exceptionally well, and have very good life spans running at a constant, or near constant, rpm for this type of application.

 

[mobilaltima]

No companies out there that offer DPF/DEF delete systems for these bigger trucks? I could go on all day about the Ford, Dodge, and Chevy diesels, dont know much about these bigger trucks.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Yes and no. Depends on engine. But, as a commercial truck user myself, I am very much aware that the OEM shops are under pressure from EPA. When a truck comes in for repair, they are required to restore, at owner expense, all emissions stuff to original condition. How much they actually comply with that, is anyone's guess. And the repair that brought the truck in, may not even be related to the emissions stuff. EPA is even assessing fines if they find out about modifications and OEM shop not restoring.

This is why I got a pre-egr engine in my 2013 Freightliner I bought last year. I didn't want the hassle of the newer engine, both the additional cost of it and the cost to modify it, nor did I want the hassles from the EPA or dealer.

But whatever one has to do to make things work. It is a real mess. But back to the point at hand, it would be more cost effective in the short and long term to have an auxiliary diesel to handle operating a shredder. So much more practical and efficient. And probably not any more expensive than trying to modify the main engine and probably a serious money saver in the long run by extending service issues and life of the main engine as well as saving a bunch of fuel in the course of a year.

 

[Ken2]

Is the cooling adequate? For a stationary truck operating in Texas heat.... A truck driving 70 mph on a 90° day pushes a lot more air through the coolers than that same truck standing still. Can the oil temperature be checked, and are there reasonable ways to improve the oil cooling if needed?

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: mobilaltima
No companies out there that offer DPF/DEF delete systems for these bigger trucks? I could go on all day about the Ford, Dodge, and Chevy diesels, dont know much about these bigger trucks.


In Canada, commercial vehicle inspections typically include emissions equipment and there are big fines if you have them removed. This is a big reason why rebuild kits for pre-emissions engines have become quite popular with people who don't want to deal with the emissions stuff.

These systems have been improved quite a bit since we saw the first EGRs and DPFs back in 2008. I don't think that the trucks in question were failing 100% due to emission equipment issues, but it may have been a contributing factor. Without an oil analysis profile and actually seeing the engines there is no way to know for sure.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Setups for commercial truck use have pretty sufficient fans on them for pulling a lot of air thru the front end. I have a fan switch on mine, that if stationary, no fan cycling going on. Stays on till I hit the switch. And commercial vehicles usually have oil temp gauges on them. Also, the medium to large duty commercial vehicle engines have engine oil coolers on them. Not like one would expect though. They are a cooler that uses the normal engine coolant to keep oil at a moderate level.

Originally Posted By: Ken2
Is the cooling adequate? For a stationary truck operating in Texas heat.... A truck driving 70 mph on a 90° day pushes a lot more air through the coolers than that same truck standing still. Can the oil temperature be checked, and are there reasonable ways to improve the oil cooling if needed?

 

[shredguy]

Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker


This is why I got a pre-egr engine in my 2013 Freightliner I bought last year. I didn't want the hassle of the newer engine, both the additional cost of it and the cost to modify it, nor did I want the hassles from the EPA or dealer.



How do you go about getting an old engine into a new chassis?

Pre-DPF/EGR we had literally 1/2 of the issues we have now. We consistently had trucks hitting 250k miles+ miles without a rebuild (which is pretty good considering our hours). I think our high amount of time spent idling and running off of PTO multiplies the negative effect of the new emissions.

 

[TiredTrucker]

Depend on the truck chassis body you need. To be honest, most of the trucks being offered as "glider kit" trucks, those that can be ordered as a chassis/body alone and then you drop in your engine and transmission, is mostly limited to class 8 sized truck bodies. Last I heard, the smallest truck being offered for this purpose is the M2 Business class truck from Freightliner. You will have to check with Freightliner on that one.

There are only a few places in the country that will put together the final assembly. I got my 2013 from Harrison Truck Center (Freightliner dealership) near Waterloo, IA.

But the fact remains..... the EPA only ties the emissions requirements to the year the engine was made and not the chassis/body. What engine you can put in is only limited by the wiring harness compatability issues of getting the engine ECM to talk to the rest of the truck. You specify the engine you want to put in, and the OEM provides the wiring harness and plumbing to put that engine in to the new truck when you get it. But they have their limits on how far back on engines one can go and get things to work properly. Just about any engine from 1995 on will work.

 

[Ken2]

Quote:
And commercial vehicles usually have oil temp gauges on them. Also, the medium to large duty commercial vehicle engines have engine oil coolers on them. Not like one would expect though. They are a cooler that uses the normal engine coolant to keep oil at a moderate level.
Sure, and is anybody watching the gauges when the crew is doing their shredding? The stationary diesel generator sets I've run have appeared to have larger radiators than the same engine would have in a truck. If temperature is a problem, is all the original air shrouding in place? Is a bigger fan to push more air available? Is a radiator with more rows of cooling tubes available? Can a bigger oil cooler be fitted? Oil analysis would show excessive oxidation if the oil was being severely overheated. (I had a Cat d-g set, still under warranty, with a leaking oil cooler that got oil into the cooling system. After the Cat tech replaced the cooler, he put machine dishwash detergent into the cooling system to remove the oil--no suds, cuts grease--we ran for a few hours, drained and renewed the coolant. The engine ran great for years.)

Do any engine makers offer oil drain guidelines that follow the total amount of fuel consumed...burn so many hundred gallons of fuel, then change the oil? That would represent both highway operation and stationary operation.

Can the Cummins CENTINEL Oil Management System be fitted to these engines?
"CENTINEL Advanced Engine Oil Management System extends oil change intervals to 525,000 miles (844,906 km) and oil filter changes to 75,000 miles (120,701 km) for heavy-duty onhighway applications! For industrial applications, oil changes are extended to 4,000 hours and oil filter intervals are increased to 1,000 hours. At duty-cycle-dependent intervals, CENTINEL removes a small amount of used oil out of the lubrication system and sends it to your fuel tank. The used oil blends with the fuel and is burned during combustion. Simultaneously, CENTINEL adds the same amount of new oil from a makeup tank into your engine. This constantly replenishes oil additives, improving oil quality over the life of your engine."
https://quickserve.cummins.com/info/qsol/products/newparts/centinel.html

 

[TiredTrucker]

I take it you have not seen under the hood of a class 6-8 truck. There is considerable radiator under there, Did you know, that the International class 8 trucks, equipped with a Maxxforce 13 engine, have 18, count em, 18 different cooling systems to support that engine? and stand next to any larger commercial truck when the fan cycles. You would swear that there was a 747 readying for takeoff.

The oil cooler on these types of engines are a coolant style. The oil is kept cool by the engine coolant. On the surface to the uninitiated, is seems like a bad idea, but in fact, that is more efficient than a cooler that is run like, say , a transmission oil cooler.

And most engine guidelines are for both miles and hours. If one is not doing big miles, then use the hours. Even my new Chevy Silverado 1500 pickup has an engine hour meter I could check. Any larger commercial engine, gas or diesel, has had them for decades. Any heavy diesel engine owners manual has the guidelines in miles and hours. I know, I know.... many folks are guilty of.... "manual? we don't need no stinking manual!"

The Centinal system is not a wise move with more modern engines. Even Cummins will not spec this now for the newer ISX or ISM engine platforms. The common rail system is too delicate to be feeding waste engine oil into it. And if you want a sure fire way to mess up a DPF system, by golly, feed waste oil into that engine. After you shell out the big bucks to replace a DPF unit, that will cure one of any old school ideas.

These new platforms are not your daddy's truck anymore. What we all were brought up with, and what we all thought we knew about heavy duty diesels is going bye bye. This is what is causing fleets so much hair pulling and heartburn. You just can't do things the old way with these new engines now.

 

[shredguy]

After reading everything, I think we are going to focus more on the cooling aspects.

We have been getting oil changes every 3 months, which works out to about 400-500 hours...which is about right. We are going to do analysis on the oil starting with the next oil changes to see if we need to adjust the schedule.

However, we were doing the cooling, tranny, and DPF PMs on mostly a miles basis. We are going to switch that to hourly based, which will roughly mean double the servicing.

Any other ideas you think we should try?

 

[Ramblejam]

Originally Posted By: shredguy
However, we were doing the cooling, tranny, and DPF PMs on mostly a miles basis. We are going to switch that to hourly based, which will roughly mean double the servicing.


That's exactly what you should do -- people tend to forget that the engine oil is but one piece of the puzzle.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: shredguy
After reading everything, I think we are going to focus more on the cooling aspects.

We have been getting oil changes every 3 months, which works out to about 400-500 hours...which is about right. We are going to do analysis on the oil starting with the next oil changes to see if we need to adjust the schedule.

However, we were doing the cooling, tranny, and DPF PMs on mostly a miles basis. We are going to switch that to hourly based, which will roughly mean double the servicing.

Any other ideas you think we should try?



I think this is a good place for you to start. If you need help interpreting your UOA let us know. Compared to the cost of engine rebuilds, doubling your PMs on other components should be small potatoes.
Looking forward to hearing about the results.