6.4 Ford sludge
- Thread starter nutsbolts
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: Boatowner
I don't get why someone would pay around $ 40,000 for a pickup and then decide oil changes were not necessary. Ford says the engine is sludged. That wouldn't happen with Delo or Rotella 15w-40 changed at the recommended intervals, allowing for severe duty service. I can't see where you have a complaint against Ford since you abused your engine and violated the warranty conditions. Even a synthetic usually has some dino carriers in it that could be subject to sludging from overuse and overheating.
Let me explain, the oil changes are necessary if you do not perform UOA, otherwise stick to the FORD OCI.
In my case I used UOA to determine oil condition before a change, the sludge that is present in my engine is not from cooked oil! it is smooth like jello, not your traditional gritty caked on sludge, it actually washes right off, the FORD mechanic showed me how easily it washed off.
The sludge is from coolant entering the engine oil plain and simple.
Quote:
When a sudden increase in sodium is observed, the analyst needs to be aware of other common sources. These include: salt and saltwater, grease, dirt, fly ash, sodium hydroxide, etc. For this reason, other members of the coolant additive family may be needed to confirm the contaminant is antifreeze, such as boron, potassium, silicon and phosphorous, bearing in mind that some of these elements may also be oil additives
My sodium is significant 424PPM
Quote:
In general, glycol above 200 ppm in most cases is considered reportable. Levels greater than 400 ppm should be regarded as significant and levels as high as 1,000 ppm flagged as critical.
2 weeks before my truck turbo failed I had to add 2 gallons of coolant, no external leak found.
Quote:
Quoting again from the report by the Fleetguard division of Cummins Engine, “Oil samples will sometimes have several hundreds parts per million sodium, yet there will be no moisture or glycol present. The amount of sodium indicates that at least a gallon of coolant has leaked into the crankcase, but there is no sign of it (other than the sodium).” Cummins summarizes by saying, “Our experience is that the most reliable indicator of coolant leakage is the sodium level of the filter paper ash followed by the level of the sodium in the oil.” Due to the loss of sodium from oil consumption or by insoluble sodium captured by the oil filter (80 to 90 percent of the total sodium that has leaked into the crankcase in some instances), an increase in sodium in the oil by as little as 50 ppm can mean as much as one gallon of coolant has leaked into a 10 gallon (38 L) lube oil system.
I don't get why someone would pay around $ 40,000 for a pickup and then decide oil changes were not necessary. Ford says the engine is sludged. That wouldn't happen with Delo or Rotella 15w-40 changed at the recommended intervals, allowing for severe duty service. I can't see where you have a complaint against Ford since you abused your engine and violated the warranty conditions. Even a synthetic usually has some dino carriers in it that could be subject to sludging from overuse and overheating.
Let me explain, the oil changes are necessary if you do not perform UOA, otherwise stick to the FORD OCI.
In my case I used UOA to determine oil condition before a change, the sludge that is present in my engine is not from cooked oil! it is smooth like jello, not your traditional gritty caked on sludge, it actually washes right off, the FORD mechanic showed me how easily it washed off.
The sludge is from coolant entering the engine oil plain and simple.
Quote:
When a sudden increase in sodium is observed, the analyst needs to be aware of other common sources. These include: salt and saltwater, grease, dirt, fly ash, sodium hydroxide, etc. For this reason, other members of the coolant additive family may be needed to confirm the contaminant is antifreeze, such as boron, potassium, silicon and phosphorous, bearing in mind that some of these elements may also be oil additives
My sodium is significant 424PPM
Quote:
In general, glycol above 200 ppm in most cases is considered reportable. Levels greater than 400 ppm should be regarded as significant and levels as high as 1,000 ppm flagged as critical.
2 weeks before my truck turbo failed I had to add 2 gallons of coolant, no external leak found.
Quote:
Quoting again from the report by the Fleetguard division of Cummins Engine, “Oil samples will sometimes have several hundreds parts per million sodium, yet there will be no moisture or glycol present. The amount of sodium indicates that at least a gallon of coolant has leaked into the crankcase, but there is no sign of it (other than the sodium).” Cummins summarizes by saying, “Our experience is that the most reliable indicator of coolant leakage is the sodium level of the filter paper ash followed by the level of the sodium in the oil.” Due to the loss of sodium from oil consumption or by insoluble sodium captured by the oil filter (80 to 90 percent of the total sodium that has leaked into the crankcase in some instances), an increase in sodium in the oil by as little as 50 ppm can mean as much as one gallon of coolant has leaked into a 10 gallon (38 L) lube oil system.
If you have multiple oil samples on this 19K run and they show a steady increase of sodium, I would do two things; 1) ask your sample lab if they have someone that would represent you in a court of law and 2) hire a good attorney. You can be assured of one thing, Ford will have some good attorneys and they will show the courts the oil and service recommendations in order to maintain a warranty.
Good luck.
Good luck.
You can show them the receipt for the 2 gallons of coolant. Testing the oil for coolant would be proof enough, sludged from the wrong grade of oil or not it would be a gasket issue correct? I'd stick to the recommended OCI interval stated in the manual since its under warranty and even out of warranty I would. Turbo's and Diesels are very hard on oil and I wouldn't run it that long regardless of the UOA.
If your Ford dealer won't do it, then goto another Ford dealer. Warranties are acceptable at any dealership. Just make sure you've learned your lesson on the OCI interval. Not trying to be a jerk or anything but let common sense guide you over everything else.
If your Ford dealer won't do it, then goto another Ford dealer. Warranties are acceptable at any dealership. Just make sure you've learned your lesson on the OCI interval. Not trying to be a jerk or anything but let common sense guide you over everything else.
it is so black and white, fluid meets Ford specs. source of sludge verified coolant contamination.
plus all the pictures I took at the dealer pulling a sample.
Found an Attorney
Javier
plus all the pictures I took at the dealer pulling a sample.
Found an Attorney
Javier
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Anies
You can show them the receipt for the 2 gallons of coolant. Testing the oil for coolant would be proof enough, sludged from the wrong grade of oil or not it would be a gasket issue correct? I'd stick to the recommended OCI interval stated in the manual since its under warranty and even out of warranty I would. Turbo's and Diesels are very hard on oil and I wouldn't run it that long regardless of the UOA.
If your Ford dealer won't do it, then goto another Ford dealer. Warranties are acceptable at any dealership. Just make sure you've learned your lesson on the OCI interval. Not trying to be a jerk or anything but let common sense guide you over everything else.
hard to take the truck anyplace, it is in many large pieces. LOL!
Javier
You can show them the receipt for the 2 gallons of coolant. Testing the oil for coolant would be proof enough, sludged from the wrong grade of oil or not it would be a gasket issue correct? I'd stick to the recommended OCI interval stated in the manual since its under warranty and even out of warranty I would. Turbo's and Diesels are very hard on oil and I wouldn't run it that long regardless of the UOA.
If your Ford dealer won't do it, then goto another Ford dealer. Warranties are acceptable at any dealership. Just make sure you've learned your lesson on the OCI interval. Not trying to be a jerk or anything but let common sense guide you over everything else.
hard to take the truck anyplace, it is in many large pieces. LOL!
Javier
What is the warranty and if you can document the service etc call the Ford corp customer service and be polite and give them the facts. Make sure there are no chips or mods on the engine. Seems that the uoas are pretty good proof.
letter sent to warranty claims at FORD with all proper documents.
the wheel turns so slow, my bills pile up, no truck=no work!
the wheel turns so slow, my bills pile up, no truck=no work!
dnewton3
Staff member
If they (Ford) are blaming the oil (and your use of it), then I'd get that anymous oil company involved. If Ford won't pay, because they blame the oil, then they can fight it out with the lube manufacturer. I presume it's Amsoil or Castrol, because they are the only two that make 5w-30 HDEO off the top of my head.
The downside to this is you'll end up sitting without a truck while they argue it out.
If you followed the OEM/Ford OCI's, they'd not argue. You didn't; so they want to blame someone else.
If you followed the lube warranty guidelines, then they'll fight for you.
If you followed neither warranty provisions, then you'll have a tough fight on your hands. Keep us gawkers informed, please!
BTW, the Fe looks pretty darn high, even for 19k miles of synthetic HDEO. You averaged nearly 9ppm/1k miles of iron ... That's high! Most likely a result of the coolant consumption, although the UOA doesn't show any real coolant issue as a percentage, but rather as potential PPM elements.
You might look into getting a Dyson analysis; it'd be money well spent in this case.
The downside to this is you'll end up sitting without a truck while they argue it out.
If you followed the OEM/Ford OCI's, they'd not argue. You didn't; so they want to blame someone else.
If you followed the lube warranty guidelines, then they'll fight for you.
If you followed neither warranty provisions, then you'll have a tough fight on your hands. Keep us gawkers informed, please!
BTW, the Fe looks pretty darn high, even for 19k miles of synthetic HDEO. You averaged nearly 9ppm/1k miles of iron ... That's high! Most likely a result of the coolant consumption, although the UOA doesn't show any real coolant issue as a percentage, but rather as potential PPM elements.
You might look into getting a Dyson analysis; it'd be money well spent in this case.
Last edited:
Thanks for the reply.
No lube manufacture will honor any warranty with 442PPM of sodium in the UOA. unless the VOA has similar additive levels, not in my case.
This oil was the trucks first oil change done at 5000 miles.
So yes the iron was high as expected in a newer engine.
Well the sludge caused oil passage blockage wich overheated the turbo's wich caused the failure. No coolant in the oil no sludge.
Javier
No lube manufacture will honor any warranty with 442PPM of sodium in the UOA. unless the VOA has similar additive levels, not in my case.
This oil was the trucks first oil change done at 5000 miles.
So yes the iron was high as expected in a newer engine.
Well the sludge caused oil passage blockage wich overheated the turbo's wich caused the failure. No coolant in the oil no sludge.
Javier
Originally Posted By: nutsbolts
Thanks for the reply.
No lube manufacture will honor any warranty with 442PPM of sodium in the UOA. unless the VOA has similar additive levels, not in my case.
This oil was the trucks first oil change done at 5000 miles.
So yes the iron was high as expected in a newer engine.
Well the sludge caused oil passage blockage wich overheated the turbo's wich caused the failure. No coolant in the oil no sludge.
Javier
Amsoil's warranty is 25k miles without requiring UOAs. At least Amsoil can point the finger at Ford and say our oil wasn't the problem. Then, an attorney can help you fight in court which company's warranty is in effect. You're just "the consumer" stuck between two companies and their warranty claims...
Thanks for the reply.
No lube manufacture will honor any warranty with 442PPM of sodium in the UOA. unless the VOA has similar additive levels, not in my case.
This oil was the trucks first oil change done at 5000 miles.
So yes the iron was high as expected in a newer engine.
Well the sludge caused oil passage blockage wich overheated the turbo's wich caused the failure. No coolant in the oil no sludge.
Javier
Amsoil's warranty is 25k miles without requiring UOAs. At least Amsoil can point the finger at Ford and say our oil wasn't the problem. Then, an attorney can help you fight in court which company's warranty is in effect. You're just "the consumer" stuck between two companies and their warranty claims...
If there is anyway you can get a sample of the oil that was in there and send it to whoever the manufacturer is, they could test it in their in-house lab and tell you that the problem was caused from a coolant leak that got in to the oil. Official statements from major oil companies carry a lot of weight in a court of law. If your test results says coolant, and your pictures say coolant, and a major oil company says coolant, then more than likely Ford will have to admit to coolant, or at least the judge will tell them to.
Originally Posted By: Johnny
If there is anyway you can get a sample of the oil that was in there and send it to whoever the manufacturer is, they could test it in their in-house lab and tell you that the problem was caused from a coolant leak that got in to the oil. Official statements from major oil companies carry a lot of weight in a court of law. If your test results says coolant, and your pictures say coolant, and a major oil company says coolant, then more than likely Ford will have to admit to coolant, or at least the judge will tell them to.
Good point! beat you to it, already!
have that in documentation too!
Javier
If there is anyway you can get a sample of the oil that was in there and send it to whoever the manufacturer is, they could test it in their in-house lab and tell you that the problem was caused from a coolant leak that got in to the oil. Official statements from major oil companies carry a lot of weight in a court of law. If your test results says coolant, and your pictures say coolant, and a major oil company says coolant, then more than likely Ford will have to admit to coolant, or at least the judge will tell them to.
Good point! beat you to it, already!
have that in documentation too!
Javier
Good luck. Please let us know how it turns out.
Originally Posted By: RISUPERCREWMAN
5w-30 is not a Diesel Oil viscosity! 15w-40 ????
It could be Amsoil.
5w-30 is not a Diesel Oil viscosity! 15w-40 ????
It could be Amsoil.
I'll dito Johnny. It seems like a good case against Ford, although the OCI was pretty long. The oil company is pretty much off the hook because of the 442 ppm sodium. Now it would be a matter of convincing the judge (with expert testimony) that even though it was a longer OCI than the warranty requirement the sodium could only get there one way, from a leak. That is the testimony the OP will need. Then keep his fingers crossed. JMO
Be prepared for a long wait for the this to be settled if you go to court. A friend sued GM over the piston slap thing and his case took well over a year to complete. He jumped through a lot of hoops, three trips to Chicago at 600 miles round trip each, Several days off work, a few hundred dollars out of pocket expence, and he still lost the case. You better be sure of your case before you take on Ford or any large company.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Be prepared for a long wait for the this to be settled if you go to court. A friend sued GM over the piston slap thing and his case took well over a year to complete. He jumped through a lot of hoops, three trips to Chicago at 600 miles round trip each, Several days off work, a few hundred dollars out of pocket expence, and he still lost the case. You better be sure of your case before you take on Ford or any large company.
+1 You've got a long hard fight ahead of you. The fact that the oil had 19,000 miles on it is going to make it a tough battle. I told you how I would handle it, but expect a long hard battle! Good luck!
Be prepared for a long wait for the this to be settled if you go to court. A friend sued GM over the piston slap thing and his case took well over a year to complete. He jumped through a lot of hoops, three trips to Chicago at 600 miles round trip each, Several days off work, a few hundred dollars out of pocket expence, and he still lost the case. You better be sure of your case before you take on Ford or any large company.
+1 You've got a long hard fight ahead of you. The fact that the oil had 19,000 miles on it is going to make it a tough battle. I told you how I would handle it, but expect a long hard battle! Good luck!
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked